| vs Gateshead - match thread 20:07 - Oct 24 with 32847 views | RAFCBLUE |
Pitch looks ok.
1-0 up
And we still have idiots with smoke bombs. |  |
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 12:05 - Oct 25 with 2729 views | James1980 |
What happened between the two dates to lead to such a change in direction? That's a question for the board |  |
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 12:15 - Oct 25 with 2689 views | EllGazzell |
Thanks for the links and info - I was not sure of the timeline.
What is the way forward now then? How are the club's shares going to move from a small group of investors to the trust/fans at large? This is the bit I cannot grasp. Unless someone has a pile of dosh to buy them and donate them, or lend the Trust the money to buy them? One unlikely way I see is:
1) The trust assembles a board of directors based on knowledge, experience in running the club etc.
2) The trust agrees with existing individual shareholders to purchase their shares *
3) The current board step aside and the new board take over
3.1) The new board is elected or decided annually or however it is in a fan-owned scenario
4) Onwards...
*
1)The price is agreed and a 'purchase plan' is set up over a 2 - 10 year period allowing the funding of purchase to be spread
2) The individual shareholders are given a lien on the club's physical assets to the value of transferred shares as security for releasing their shares without immediate recompense.
That is clearly a convoluted manoeuvre and requires goodwill, trust (no pun) and a leap of faith for many protagonists.
Edit: and a very well put together contract :) [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 12:17]
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 12:16 - Oct 25 with 2688 views | Yorkshire_Dale |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 22:38 - Oct 24 by RAFCBLUE |
Both true TVOS.
But when was the last time in league competition we conceded 2 goals or more for six consecutive league games and what was the equivalent point haul?
We've now conceded 14 in the last six league games and have just 3 points from 18 to show for it. |
In my usual positive narrative, despite all these goals conceded, we still have a credit goal difference.
Here we go. | | | |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 12:19 - Oct 25 with 2683 views | TalkingSutty |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 11:46 - Oct 25 by EllGazzell |
I agree with everything you say about the running of the club etc. I just think you're being totally unfair claiming he has no "emotional investment" in Dale |
He will have some emotional investment obviously but I question whether he thinks the same way as the majority of the fan base in relation to the long term future of the club. I don't see him engaging with his fellow fans and does he really go out of his way to welcome Trust involvement and communicate properly with the shareholders and supporters? This at a time in the clubs history when as a collective the whole fan base came together to fight off MH. If you think he's gone out of his way along with the rest of the boardroom to enthuse everybody and make this a inclusive club then you're entitled to that opinion. I've seen the complete opposite and to my mind the Chairman should have been working on a equal footing as the Supporters Trust, even being guided by them on certain matters. As a Chairman of a fan owned club that's how I would have approached it anyway. [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 12:27]
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 12:19 - Oct 25 with 2679 views | wheniwasyourage |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 10:57 - Oct 25 by EllGazzell |
"Most of those 500 investors have invested all their life's into this club, something that the Chairman will never be able to understand which is a shame."
are you for real?
Let's be clear: The Chairman is doing a piss poor job currently - running a football club is clearly not his skill set; but to suggest he's not a 'true fan', after initially investing £££ to save the club from MH and then recently offering up to borrow in his name, is way off the mark and tells me that you're grinding your axe, and downright insulting.
Back in the day, I dressed up as Desmond the Dragon and went down into the town centre, giving tickets away and trying to drum up new fans - I suppose that makes me a 'better' supporter than you does it? I'd say not, but your logic says yes.
YES the club is desperate for better leadership, YES we are sliding into deeper shit, but jumping up and down shouting "fan-owned, fan-owned" and slagging the current leadership is not going to retard or reverse that slide.
Unless lots of fans are gonna pony up a fair chunk of wedge, then fan-owned is either a pipe dream, or RAFC playing several levels lower down the pyramid than currently. [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 11:04]
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Good post, summarises a lot succintly. | | | |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 12:28 - Oct 25 with 2641 views | wheniwasyourage |
So - to save everyone's time I have had ChatGPT 4.0 look at the first 4 pages and here is HAL's summary
The match discussion revealed fans' discontent towards Rochdale's performance against Gateshead, ending in a 2-2 draw after an initial 2-0 lead. Fans praised Gateshead's play, criticizing Rochdale's inability to adapt. Recurring performance issues were mentioned, hinting at deeper off-pitch problems needing resolution. Fans also debated the club's financial management and leadership, expressing dissatisfaction towards the Chairman's handling of the club and financial decisions, especially concerning player transfers, reflecting concerns over the club's direction and governance.
I will now ask DAL-E to draw a picture | | | |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 12:42 - Oct 25 with 2569 views | pioneer |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 10:56 - Oct 25 by AtThePeake |
I feel for them if anything.
We've only used 19 players this season, and that includes the likes of Rodney who has only been fit enough to come off the bench twice, Hayes who's only been here a couple of weeks, McDermott and Afuye who clearly aren't considered good enough and now the likes of John, Ferguson and Sinclair who aren't available.
We're asking players to play too much football. I know it's easy to say "they're professional footballers they should be able to cope" but when other teams are able to rest players when they need it or sub them off after 60 minutes occasionally, it leaves us at a huge disadvantage. We're asking 38 year olds and 17 year olds to play almost every minute of almost every game and then wondering why we're looking a bit leggy. |
How did football exist before the introduction of subs, or for the long period when each team names one sub.
It seems that the expectation now is that players cannot be expected to play 90 minutes on a regular basis. | | | |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 13:19 - Oct 25 with 2453 views | AtThePeake |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 12:42 - Oct 25 by pioneer |
How did football exist before the introduction of subs, or for the long period when each team names one sub.
It seems that the expectation now is that players cannot be expected to play 90 minutes on a regular basis. |
The obvious difference between that period and this period is that it was the same for both teams before the introduction of subs.
It's not so much that the expectation is that players cannot be expected to play 90 minutes on a regular basis, more that the players that are having to play 90 minutes every single game are evidently going to have less energy than the players that aren't. |  |
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 13:46 - Oct 25 with 2367 views | 442Dale |
This thread is a really interesting read and another great example of the commitment and interest amongst supporters to looking at finding a positive route forward.
The good thing is that we’ve already seen that the club and the Trust agree “a season long engagement programme” at the start of June. With this in place, the club will presumably already have their own plans in place to listen to supporters opinions and questions, using the opportunity to communicate and clarify where we are as a club at present.
That commitment of supporters in threads like this, in working with the Trust and the work of the Trust board themselves can then be shown to be matched by the commitment of the club themselves to work within the agreed season long engagement programme.
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/2023/06/fan-engagement-programme-for-23-24/ [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 13:50]
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 14:15 - Oct 25 with 2306 views | Rodingdale |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 12:19 - Oct 25 by TalkingSutty |
He will have some emotional investment obviously but I question whether he thinks the same way as the majority of the fan base in relation to the long term future of the club. I don't see him engaging with his fellow fans and does he really go out of his way to welcome Trust involvement and communicate properly with the shareholders and supporters? This at a time in the clubs history when as a collective the whole fan base came together to fight off MH. If you think he's gone out of his way along with the rest of the boardroom to enthuse everybody and make this a inclusive club then you're entitled to that opinion. I've seen the complete opposite and to my mind the Chairman should have been working on a equal footing as the Supporters Trust, even being guided by them on certain matters. As a Chairman of a fan owned club that's how I would have approached it anyway. [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 12:27]
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Gauges attachment emotional or otherwise has turned sour for him. Partly due to circumstances, I’m sure if he had done exhaustive due diligence before he took over he wouldn’t have got involved and I wouldn’t have blamed him. But he’s not helped himself at all in the last 12 months. The fans forum before the season looked like a car crash to me, pretty much the last we’ve heard from him. He’s indignant, embattled, disengaged from the fans and shareholders. Focussed on getting out.
The trust is the only way out of this, so tomorrow’s meeting with the board will be interesting. But I don’t have a great deal of faith in the current trust leadership to stand up to the board. If it is banging the table, well that is not being articulated to its membership. How did last Saturdays meeting go? What was the sentiment of the room? What questions were asked? In my view the Trust leadership are in fact following the lead of the board and not properly engaging with its own stakeholders. A monthly newsletter and ad hoc meetings with no prompt report back just isn’t enough to keep the pressure up and move things forward. We need to mobilise and act. Get the media involved, do we know any journalists? What’s happening here is not right but we are just going so quietly.
TS posted on here in May (I think) and asked the question - Chairman - what’s the plan? what’s the vision? There wasn’t one forthcoming. In fact we heard nothing from the board pretty much until the car crash fans forum. The trust need to formulate and articulate in consultation with its membership a vision, a plan for the survival of the club, that might mean at a lower grade of football, might mean away from Spotland - but we need a plan to emerge. The trust have to lead it. If they need to pay for people to help resource it, then fundraise for it. Mobilise!! | | | |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 15:15 - Oct 25 with 2202 views | D_Alien |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 13:46 - Oct 25 by 442Dale |
This thread is a really interesting read and another great example of the commitment and interest amongst supporters to looking at finding a positive route forward.
The good thing is that we’ve already seen that the club and the Trust agree “a season long engagement programme” at the start of June. With this in place, the club will presumably already have their own plans in place to listen to supporters opinions and questions, using the opportunity to communicate and clarify where we are as a club at present.
That commitment of supporters in threads like this, in working with the Trust and the work of the Trust board themselves can then be shown to be matched by the commitment of the club themselves to work within the agreed season long engagement programme.
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/2023/06/fan-engagement-programme-for-23-24/ [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 13:50]
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Which is why the meeting between the club Board and the Trust tomorrow is so important; not just from the point of view of what is agreed but the manner and tone in which the outcome is conveyed. I'd expect comms from the Trust AND the Board around this
If a satisfactory outcome isn't obtained from the Trust perspective, i've written to the Trust with my view on what the next course of action should be
[Post edited 25 Oct 2023 15:17]
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 15:22 - Oct 25 with 2175 views | James1980 |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 15:15 - Oct 25 by D_Alien |
Which is why the meeting between the club Board and the Trust tomorrow is so important; not just from the point of view of what is agreed but the manner and tone in which the outcome is conveyed. I'd expect comms from the Trust AND the Board around this
If a satisfactory outcome isn't obtained from the Trust perspective, i've written to the Trust with my view on what the next course of action should be
[Post edited 25 Oct 2023 15:17]
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I've heard the meeting has been put back a week. | |
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 15:41 - Oct 25 with 2099 views | tony_roch975 |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 11:07 - Oct 25 by EllGazzell |
Because they came at it from a clean slate - they were wound up on 10 March 2010, from which the fans took over. |
Just like Exeter City, often used as a model on here | |
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 16:44 - Oct 25 with 1964 views | AtThePeake |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 15:41 - Oct 25 by tony_roch975 |
Just like Exeter City, often used as a model on here |
Exeter were never liquidated like Chester. Exeter's fanbase is far bigger and from a more affluent area than ours though, they're not comparable IMO. | |
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 16:50 - Oct 25 with 1955 views | jonahwhereru |
When I saw B Kelly was on the bench I feared the worst last night. We have gone without a sub keeper all season, but we felt giving keeper cover was the best use of a position on the bench. That must have really disappointed the likes of De Santos and the other Kelly. But how many teenagers can you have on the pitch at this level? Can understand the decision. Clearly the McDermott loan has not worked. In effect we had a centre half, were we performed ok, and a knock carrying Clayton on the bench. This coupled with us having the worst current form in the league worries me.
To last night, of the highlights only. Rarely will we play another side that builds from the back and cherishes possession like we do. Shame as I think counter attacking suits us. But that was a real good effort to hold them-after the momentum switch. I am sorry but I still think Mitchell is doing a decent job in the absence of Rodney. I hope we can get Hayes for another month, while Sinclair is out. Like most wingers he is frustrating and exciting in equal measure. EEL has now gone long from which goals have resulted a couple of time (Maidenhead). Playing alongside Nevett must be rubbing off on him. SAJ has developed the art of ghosting into the area down to a tee. We badly need a win and even with this team we are capable of getting one. Like TS I am under no illusion that mid table stability / mediocrity (depending your degree of negativity) will be a successful introduction to the league. Two more of the right type of players coming could see a marked improvement on that. But that reverts the conversation back to our financial position.
UTD | | | |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 16:58 - Oct 25 with 1926 views | TalkingSutty |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 14:15 - Oct 25 by Rodingdale |
Gauges attachment emotional or otherwise has turned sour for him. Partly due to circumstances, I’m sure if he had done exhaustive due diligence before he took over he wouldn’t have got involved and I wouldn’t have blamed him. But he’s not helped himself at all in the last 12 months. The fans forum before the season looked like a car crash to me, pretty much the last we’ve heard from him. He’s indignant, embattled, disengaged from the fans and shareholders. Focussed on getting out.
The trust is the only way out of this, so tomorrow’s meeting with the board will be interesting. But I don’t have a great deal of faith in the current trust leadership to stand up to the board. If it is banging the table, well that is not being articulated to its membership. How did last Saturdays meeting go? What was the sentiment of the room? What questions were asked? In my view the Trust leadership are in fact following the lead of the board and not properly engaging with its own stakeholders. A monthly newsletter and ad hoc meetings with no prompt report back just isn’t enough to keep the pressure up and move things forward. We need to mobilise and act. Get the media involved, do we know any journalists? What’s happening here is not right but we are just going so quietly.
TS posted on here in May (I think) and asked the question - Chairman - what’s the plan? what’s the vision? There wasn’t one forthcoming. In fact we heard nothing from the board pretty much until the car crash fans forum. The trust need to formulate and articulate in consultation with its membership a vision, a plan for the survival of the club, that might mean at a lower grade of football, might mean away from Spotland - but we need a plan to emerge. The trust have to lead it. If they need to pay for people to help resource it, then fundraise for it. Mobilise!! |
In a ideal world we would be able to buy back the shares from the Chairman and Directors. I asked if it would be possible to restructure the club and access finance from the Stadium but I'm assuming that's not possible? Saving the Club is the priority but so is reimbursing the Chairman and Directors if they no longer want to be involved and want out. If we dont want a outside investor then thats a big obstacle that will need addressing. I'm critical of how things have been handled over the last year, especially from the communication side of things but that's a separate issue to the money they stumped up to save the club. They need to be paid back for a large chunk of that, not sure how much the shares are worth now though. | | | |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 17:50 - Oct 25 with 1812 views | Dale_4_Life |
Recent share purchase have been offered at £2.00 and £2.40.
An offer could be made and an agreement reached. I don't think SG & RK expect to make any profit indeed they might be happy to get out with personal damage limitation.
I put on another thread responding to Judd that the club is still losing money on a weekly basis. We laughed at our dear neighbors Bury for NOT nipping it in the bud and we should immediately have a plan to cut cloth / act in a responsible way accordingly.
When the ballast is in place and the water is calmer Dale can hopefully set sail forwards. | | | |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 18:39 - Oct 25 with 1717 views | tony_roch975 |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 16:44 - Oct 25 by AtThePeake |
Exeter were never liquidated like Chester. Exeter's fanbase is far bigger and from a more affluent area than ours though, they're not comparable IMO. |
the associated posts are about a clean financial slate as compared with the large amount of Dale shares which any Trust buy out would need to acquire. Exeter were sold by Ivor Doble to their Trust for about £25K - so clearly they are not comparable with Dale (but that is often claimed on here) which is exactly the point I was making. [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 19:24]
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 18:48 - Oct 25 with 1686 views | RAFCBLUE |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 16:58 - Oct 25 by TalkingSutty |
In a ideal world we would be able to buy back the shares from the Chairman and Directors. I asked if it would be possible to restructure the club and access finance from the Stadium but I'm assuming that's not possible? Saving the Club is the priority but so is reimbursing the Chairman and Directors if they no longer want to be involved and want out. If we dont want a outside investor then thats a big obstacle that will need addressing. I'm critical of how things have been handled over the last year, especially from the communication side of things but that's a separate issue to the money they stumped up to save the club. They need to be paid back for a large chunk of that, not sure how much the shares are worth now though. |
To your point TS, the 212,895 shares sold to Morton House by six individuals in 2021 at the current subscription price of £2.35 would theoretically put everyone back to where they were before the EFL became involved.
Purchased by the Trust that would give the Trust 344,286 shares out of the 977,580 currently in issue; circa 35% of the club. It would cost the Trust £0.5m.
That doesn't count any shares bought by anyone else since 1 July 2021. The Trust would still have to work with others to garner a majority at 50% but be comfortably the largest shareholder where currently 10 parties own over 60% collectively.
Does the appetite exist with the 926 Trust members to push for that and secure the funding?
I'm not certain until members are offered a vote that it does but if it does, that seems a fair, practical and progressable option to give those who found £0.5m to buy out Morton House their money in return for the shares at no profit to any party.
It works in League 1 at Exeter. | |
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 18:55 - Oct 25 with 1668 views | 100notout |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 17:50 - Oct 25 by Dale_4_Life |
Recent share purchase have been offered at £2.00 and £2.40.
An offer could be made and an agreement reached. I don't think SG & RK expect to make any profit indeed they might be happy to get out with personal damage limitation.
I put on another thread responding to Judd that the club is still losing money on a weekly basis. We laughed at our dear neighbors Bury for NOT nipping it in the bud and we should immediately have a plan to cut cloth / act in a responsible way accordingly.
When the ballast is in place and the water is calmer Dale can hopefully set sail forwards. |
I feel sure that we have cut our cloth - the issue is what is the resultant profit / loss figure on an ongoing basis? We just don't know - SG mentioning "Liquidation" can obviously be seen as a major concern (as raised by Talking Sutty on many occasions) but I honestly believe we are nowhere near that. Administration would have to happen long before that and I also believe that isn't likely any time soon either.
All the above is purely my opinion - but its not looking through rose tinted spectacles, its based on anecdotal evidence e.g. reduced squad size (now too small?), some high earning players gone and replaced with lower paid players, possibility/likelihood of other high earners leaving in the summer, non-playing staff not replaced, some add-ons received from previous transfers (?).
One of many problems is the BOD's lack of energy to drive income generation, despite offers of help from several posters on this message board. Remember this time last year when SG said the 12m notice period was going to be given to the organisation running the clubs lottery with a view to re-introducing Goldbond in some format? What's happened with that? I'll tell you - nothing! Just like many other good income enhancing proposals.
Again, IMHO, the lack of income producing activities is much more of an issue than costs.
An updated MOU, incorporating the release of financial information to the Trust board, the role of the Trust Board director and most importantly an appetite from the BOD to engage with the Trust is critical - lets hope this materialises. I don't get this siege mentality from the BoD - we all want the best for the club - its time they realised that! | |
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 18:56 - Oct 25 with 1668 views | RAFCBLUE |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 16:44 - Oct 25 by AtThePeake |
Exeter were never liquidated like Chester. Exeter's fanbase is far bigger and from a more affluent area than ours though, they're not comparable IMO. |
https://www.weownexetercityfc.co.uk/history-and-achievements
There are lots of similarities ATP starting with raising nearly £0.4m to clear their CVA.
What I do think they are unique in is having their Trust as majority shareholder with the balance held by private individuals.
Over those 21 years the Trust has contributed circa £2m in donations and even more besides for specific projects and fundraising appeals, totalling in excess of £65k. As well as monetary benefit, volunteer effort is estimated to be in the region of £250,000 per annum. | |
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 19:37 - Oct 25 with 1565 views | Rodingdale |
One of the trusts role is to keep its members informed to enable the membership to make informed decisions. I don’t like the habit of having meetings before matches often with not much notice. That might have worked when the trust was advocating for fans matchday grumbles etc, but we are now faced with an existential crisis. This role will become more critical if we are to get a grip of the situation. In my view the trust needs a more formal structured approach to meeting and communicating with members. A monthly newsletter and short notice meetings poorly published just ain’t going to cut it. | | | |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 19:42 - Oct 25 with 1547 views | judd |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 19:37 - Oct 25 by Rodingdale |
One of the trusts role is to keep its members informed to enable the membership to make informed decisions. I don’t like the habit of having meetings before matches often with not much notice. That might have worked when the trust was advocating for fans matchday grumbles etc, but we are now faced with an existential crisis. This role will become more critical if we are to get a grip of the situation. In my view the trust needs a more formal structured approach to meeting and communicating with members. A monthly newsletter and short notice meetings poorly published just ain’t going to cut it. |
Trust AGM will be before the next home game.
Notice of all other meetings have been published.
The last one was a bit of a mess with changed date being changed. 12 members plus 7 Trust board volunteers were in attendance. |  |
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 19:43 - Oct 25 with 1546 views | D_Alien |
| vs Gateshead - match thread on 19:37 - Oct 25 by Rodingdale |
One of the trusts role is to keep its members informed to enable the membership to make informed decisions. I don’t like the habit of having meetings before matches often with not much notice. That might have worked when the trust was advocating for fans matchday grumbles etc, but we are now faced with an existential crisis. This role will become more critical if we are to get a grip of the situation. In my view the trust needs a more formal structured approach to meeting and communicating with members. A monthly newsletter and short notice meetings poorly published just ain’t going to cut it. |
Especially when posts appear on here about critical meetings involving the Trust being pushed back to another date, with nothing further offered either on here or - more importantly - on the Trust website
Edit: just read the post immediately above. The only information being offered via the Trust when changes are made seems to be coming from a single source. What are the others doing? [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 19:46]
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| vs Gateshead - match thread on 20:15 - Oct 25 with 1454 views | 49thseason |
We are getting closer to the nub of things , but there are still lots of unanswered questions
1. Given we sold Brierley, what effect has that had on the balance sheet
2. Has the secured Directors loan gone ahead yet?
3. What is the monthly difference between income and outgoings at the moment?
4. How much cash runway does the club currently have? i.e. when does the cash run out at the current rate of expenditure
When I asked what runway the Directors loan would give us at the shareholders meeting there was no answer. |  | | |
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