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As I mentioned in another post I have put together some of the data from the financial statements in a table & will give a simple/factual statement as to what they dhow. Clearly what we can do in the future is still a better of opinion but at least this gives a view on what the state of finances are as of end of May 2018. Unfortunately this is the first year where very detailed information is given, but I have looked at the balance sheet for the last 10 years which gives some insights.
I have attempted to explain how to look at these from the point of view of someone who may not be familiar with these documents so sorry if some of the explanations seem obvious
Table 1 - 2017 & 18 full financials
To May 18 To May 17 Gross Rev 5,412,000 6,000,000 Cost of sales -3,830,000 -3,161,000 Admin costs -1,943,000 -1,563,000 Distribution costs -31,000 0 Other income/loss 108,000 133,000 Intrest payable/received -23,000 -45,000 Total Profit/Loss -307,000 1,364,000 Exceptional income 1,429,000 -2,330,000 P/L on normal business -1,736,000 -966,000 Net assets 2,571,000 2,878,000
GBP Assets to May 18 -307,000 2,571,000 To May 17 1,356,000 2,878,000 to May 16 -419,000 1,522,000 to May 15 1,426,000 1,941,000 to May 14 -65,000 515,000 to May 13 -372,000 580,000 to May 12 353,000 952,000 to May 11 480,000 599,000 to May 10 143,000 119,000 To May 09 -24,000
I have split the next section into 3, How to read financials ( very basic) followed by what I think the Rochdale financials are saying ( mainly factual + some reasonable "guestimates", and finally a brief summary
READING FINANCIALS Although gross revenue is important, it is not relevant until you take away what you have spent. This gives us the net revenue, which is also called profit or loss. This is the money that if you run at a profit you can put into your bank and if you run at a loss you need to take out of your bank. Many companies will look at this from 2 perspectives:-
1. How the " normal" operation is running - This looks only at income and expenditure that is predictable and occurs every year. This would include gate money, sponsorships, EFL money etc as incomes and Salaries, maintenance etc. This profit loss on normal business is an indication of the general health of the business and if positive means that you are not requiring something that cannot be guaranteed to happen to balance the books
2. Total operation - This is as above but then adds in items that are not guaranteed to happen. For income this could be Transfer fees and sell ons received, Money from drawing a big club in a cup etc. For expenditure this could be a fee paid for a player. If positive and you are running a positive normal operation this would be considered " cream on top" and could be used to fund something not initially planned. If normal business is negative then you would need to use this additional income to cover the loss
Unfortunately we only have exceptional item breakdown for 2018 & 2017 so hard to judge trends
3. Table 3 - Increase/decrease in assets Although we do not have full financials, we have the asset value over 10 years. In 2009 the club had a negative value but over the last 10 years we have recorded a total of approx 2.6m profit so we stand as of May 2018 with assets of 2.571m. Although this is an average of 260,000 a year, it is not a smooth increase but swings dramatically between + 1.4m and - 400,000. We can estimate below the reason for this
WHAT DO THE FINANCIALS SEEM TO BE SAYING 1. Normal Business. The club has lost about 2.7m over 2017 & 2018 or approx 110,000 per month. Revenue from gates actually increased slightly, but Salaries jumped significantly as did Admin cost. It would seem that as a result of a large transfer/sell in 2017, the club then pushed out the boat on players or other staff Based on the fact that we have never had massive increases in staff, income, crowds etc I would estimate that we have probably incurred losses on normal business in most if not all of the last 10 years
2. Total Business. After over 110 years of business, we find ourselves with assets of approx 2.6m a figure also earned over the last 10 years. The fact that year end 2015 and 2017 account for more than this amount and the fact that we have full details of 2017 show that the biggest individual factor in getting to where we are is not the way the club runs it's normal business, but its dependence on exceptional items. This is not regular though and it is primarily through these 2 exceptional years ( not sure which transfers or sell ons would be hear). Prize money and TV money is also contributing, but it is the transfers that have got us to where we are. We have still lost money in 4 of the last 9 years even with all the windfalls
3. Assets. These would confirm my above points. Most of the normal business is under our control and the nature of the market we compete in suggest that although I don't have the detail, it is likely to have followed a similar loss making pattern. I would guess that in league 2 the gross revenue and costs were lower but we also did not achieve the same level of income from TV money, transfers etc. As a result we would have been running losses but not 110,000 per month
SUMMARY 1. Rochdale is a loss making club based on normal business and I would estimate probably always have been. In an effort to stay in league 1 we have "pushed out the boat" since the league 2 days, but increases in revenue from ticket sales will probably not have got anywhere near covering this. Sponsorships increased in 2018 but with lack of detailed data before 2017 it is hard to see if this is a trend
2. Unlike earlier years we have been relatively successful in the selling market, but not every year. As a result we have turned normal losses into a profit and our assets have risen. If we are to maintain the squad, level of spending we incur in league 1 we are going to have to "guarantee" a supply of players that we can sell on at a profit ( + try to win cup ties for prize money and a possibility of money spinning ties)
Over the last 5 years we seem to have a set of financials that a lot of EFL clubs would love, but it is dependent on continuing with our "selling club" model. It is not a lack of ambition but a financial imperative, much that it pisses of many fans.
My final comments would be based on "appetite for risk". You can take my data and moving forward justify any course of action based on your personal appetite for risk. For example:-
1. We could buy players in January or hand money back to fans with lower cup tie tickets and justify this by saying we believe we will continue to be successful in identifying and selling on talent
2. We could manage with what we have ( or free transfers) and maximise ticket prizes with the justification that transfers could dry up and we need to take a less risky policy in terms of what we spend.
That is why for example no-one is actually wrong if they say the Newcastle tickets should be 22 or 27 GBP. It depends on what you believe in terms of where we are now, what the future holds ( which no-one knows), and what your personal risk profile is
Clearly like everyone else I have a view of what we should do going forward, but in the interest of trying to make this factual view of the numbers I won't be the first to comment
This email is long enough but happy to answer any questions. For some of the more detailed numbers (. salaries etc 2017 & 18) , I have added a link at the bottom
1 question I would like to know is what "Admin" includes as it is a large amount & has increased. If I have this info I could probably do a better analysis but at this stage I have assumed it is part of normal business
Quick look at the financial statements on 15:20 - Dec 30 by RAFCBLUE
Posted earlier in this thread:
From what I see on the Official site at the end of 2017/18 we did the following:
1. Signed Matty Gilliam until June 2020 2. Extended Calvin Andrew to June 2020 from June 2019 3. Signed Aaron Wilbraham until June 2019 4. Signed Harrison McGahey until June 2020 5. Signed Andy Cannon until June 2019 6. Signed Brad Inman until June 2019 7. Signed Danny Adshead until June 2021
Of the above we have since offloaded McGahey, Cannon, Inman and Adshead for combined fees of £500k plus add ons.
Our two biggest earners, Henderson (signed an extended deal in October 2017 to June 2020) and Done (signed for two years in June 2017 and extended for two years to June 2021 by BBM); before the supposed budget increase for Hill.
I don’t believe that the sum of the 7 contracts above would have led to a £700k (30%) increase on previous terms. An increase yes but not 30%.
Magahey and Adshead alone went for well over 500K, the general consensus on the Scunthorpe side and in their local press was that they bought Magahey for approx £250K . Cannon was sold for 100K and Rafferty was sold to Preston for 150K. Perkins was also sold to Tranmere i believe but not sure of the fee. The combined fees for those players was a lot more than 500K plus add ons.
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Quick look at the financial statements on 16:25 - Dec 30 with 2441 views
Would really hope much of the speculation and doubt is addressed by the club at the forum. There is a need for a clear direction going forward, less of the rumour and uncertainty and a real indication that for everyone to be singing from the same hymn sheet, it helps if the words are given to everyone entering the church.
Quick look at the financial statements on 16:25 - Dec 30 by 442Dale
Would really hope much of the speculation and doubt is addressed by the club at the forum. There is a need for a clear direction going forward, less of the rumour and uncertainty and a real indication that for everyone to be singing from the same hymn sheet, it helps if the words are given to everyone entering the church.
Not the pub. Because it’s not there anymore.
In the past there has been a live link to the forum which then makes it accessible to fans far and wide. If the Club are using the forum to dispel rumours regarding the Boardroom changes etc and also to use the opportunity to provide a presentation to the fans then you would hope that the in-house club media people would be all over it and the events of the Evening will be put on the Club website, either live at the time or the following day.
[Post edited 30 Dec 2019 16:36]
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Quick look at the financial statements on 18:41 - Dec 30 with 2329 views
Quick look at the financial statements on 16:15 - Dec 30 by TalkingSutty
Magahey and Adshead alone went for well over 500K, the general consensus on the Scunthorpe side and in their local press was that they bought Magahey for approx £250K . Cannon was sold for 100K and Rafferty was sold to Preston for 150K. Perkins was also sold to Tranmere i believe but not sure of the fee. The combined fees for those players was a lot more than 500K plus add ons.
Thanks for this data, TS.
The more contributions there are to the original OP, the more holes begin to appear in the logic for slashing this season's playing budget and not backing a inexperienced manager in a League 1 campaign.
If those transfer fees for McGahey (£250k), Cannon (£150k), Rafferty (£150k) and Perkins did happen, that would give £500k as a ballpark estimate in the year to 31st May 2019.
Adshead moved to Norwich on 18th June 2019 which will be in the following financial year but will have seen some money come into the club over the summer.
It does also then raise the question of why people currently claim that we might be struggling financially now, because if we budgeted to lose £400k from a normal operating season to May 2019 with no special events but then raised £500k in transfer fees shouldn't that mean we made a profit in FY2019 or at least a near break even season?
The FY2020 gets even better financially since we have Adshead's transfer to Norwich, Dawson's transfer to Watford from WBA, the Man United game in the Carabao cup and the upcoming Newcastle FA Cup game - all vs a massively reduced playing budget. We must be making a profit this season.
If the Board backed a purported +30% increase (+700k) in the playing budget for last season, the Board subsequently recouped circa £500k from transfers.
We seemingly can put on free coach transport for the Boston game but we cannot back the manager with the right number of players and are choosing to close our club shop two days a week.
The only big expenditure unknowns of course are what it might have cost to sort out the pitch and/or to remove Keith Hill and Chris Beech from their contracts - both choices enacted by our current CEO on behalf of the Board, post Chris Dunphy.
George Bernard Shaw had it right:
"He who can does; he who cannot, teaches."
https://www.visittheusa.co.uk/
Quick look at the financial statements on 16:36 - Dec 30 by TalkingSutty
In the past there has been a live link to the forum which then makes it accessible to fans far and wide. If the Club are using the forum to dispel rumours regarding the Boardroom changes etc and also to use the opportunity to provide a presentation to the fans then you would hope that the in-house club media people would be all over it and the events of the Evening will be put on the Club website, either live at the time or the following day.
[Post edited 30 Dec 2019 16:36]
Completely agree.
In 2020, they should take the video camera used for the various iFollow interviews and stream the whole thing live and then allow any interested person who can't see it live a reasonable time to have it on catch-up.
bury managed this six years ago. They were an absolute shambles of a club and they did it so we, as "an extremely well run football club" should have no problem.
We all know that format won't happen though.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me should we have bad results against Accy or Bolton for Monday 13th January to become mysteriously inconvenient and for the whole event to have to be moved to a future date.
George Bernard Shaw had it right:
"He who can does; he who cannot, teaches."
https://www.visittheusa.co.uk/
Quick look at the financial statements on 18:41 - Dec 30 by RAFCBLUE
Thanks for this data, TS.
The more contributions there are to the original OP, the more holes begin to appear in the logic for slashing this season's playing budget and not backing a inexperienced manager in a League 1 campaign.
If those transfer fees for McGahey (£250k), Cannon (£150k), Rafferty (£150k) and Perkins did happen, that would give £500k as a ballpark estimate in the year to 31st May 2019.
Adshead moved to Norwich on 18th June 2019 which will be in the following financial year but will have seen some money come into the club over the summer.
It does also then raise the question of why people currently claim that we might be struggling financially now, because if we budgeted to lose £400k from a normal operating season to May 2019 with no special events but then raised £500k in transfer fees shouldn't that mean we made a profit in FY2019 or at least a near break even season?
The FY2020 gets even better financially since we have Adshead's transfer to Norwich, Dawson's transfer to Watford from WBA, the Man United game in the Carabao cup and the upcoming Newcastle FA Cup game - all vs a massively reduced playing budget. We must be making a profit this season.
If the Board backed a purported +30% increase (+700k) in the playing budget for last season, the Board subsequently recouped circa £500k from transfers.
We seemingly can put on free coach transport for the Boston game but we cannot back the manager with the right number of players and are choosing to close our club shop two days a week.
The only big expenditure unknowns of course are what it might have cost to sort out the pitch and/or to remove Keith Hill and Chris Beech from their contracts - both choices enacted by our current CEO on behalf of the Board, post Chris Dunphy.
Can I add the £1,040 per annum saving made by recent economy measure in removing the free weekly draw for Goldbond agents, and the withdrawal of the 6 free drinks given at Xmas to the same group?
Quick look at the financial statements on 18:56 - Dec 30 by judd
Can I add the £1,040 per annum saving made by recent economy measure in removing the free weekly draw for Goldbond agents, and the withdrawal of the 6 free drinks given at Xmas to the same group?
That's what probably paid for the coaches to Boston!
George Bernard Shaw had it right:
"He who can does; he who cannot, teaches."
https://www.visittheusa.co.uk/
Quick look at the financial statements on 18:58 - Dec 30 by RAFCBLUE
That's what probably paid for the coaches to Boston!
As much as the gesture is appreciated, it was never going to be of use other than to a small number who could make Spotland for 2:30pm on the Monday before Xmas week.
I'm not sure there was any fee for the Perkins move to Tranmere. I think the deal was simply, that they took over his contract 'as was' and his registration was transferred to them on that basis. Considered 'good business' at the time, based on Perkins ability.
Just to add to the theory about increased playing budgets under the latter part of the tenure of KH. It was rumoured that he was unable to use the whole of the increase on the player(s) he sought, (wouldn't come/better offers etc..) so what remained of the increased amount he was allocated, he simply used it to increase the salaries of some of the existing squad for the duration of their contracts. Some are consequently on much inflated wages as a result....
“It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooledâ€
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Quick look at the financial statements on 19:15 - Dec 30 with 2264 views
Quick look at the financial statements on 18:56 - Dec 30 by RAFCBLUE
Completely agree.
In 2020, they should take the video camera used for the various iFollow interviews and stream the whole thing live and then allow any interested person who can't see it live a reasonable time to have it on catch-up.
bury managed this six years ago. They were an absolute shambles of a club and they did it so we, as "an extremely well run football club" should have no problem.
We all know that format won't happen though.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me should we have bad results against Accy or Bolton for Monday 13th January to become mysteriously inconvenient and for the whole event to have to be moved to a future date.
On the latter point, not that it possibly will happen, that would be completely unacceptable and without any justification. The scores of some games will not be relevant to the purpose of the forum. As said, it wouldn’t ever happen anyway now as the date has been agreed.
A request has been made via the Trust for full coverage of the forum to be available to all supporters unable to attend. This would mean that it can be listened to/watched at a later date as well.
Quick look at the financial statements on 19:15 - Dec 30 by 442Dale
On the latter point, not that it possibly will happen, that would be completely unacceptable and without any justification. The scores of some games will not be relevant to the purpose of the forum. As said, it wouldn’t ever happen anyway now as the date has been agreed.
A request has been made via the Trust for full coverage of the forum to be available to all supporters unable to attend. This would mean that it can be listened to/watched at a later date as well.
I hope you are right 442 but in the current climate nothing is of a surprise to me.
We are only two weeks away; haven't the full details been confirmed to the Trust yet and those participating and if not, when do they expect to be confirmed?
The club are able to confirm today that the club shop is changing its opening hours, the community day vs Gillingham, the December POTM for the Trust and the Extra Time event, just not yet the fans forum event.
George Bernard Shaw had it right:
"He who can does; he who cannot, teaches."
https://www.visittheusa.co.uk/
Quick look at the financial statements on 19:33 - Dec 30 by RAFCBLUE
I hope you are right 442 but in the current climate nothing is of a surprise to me.
We are only two weeks away; haven't the full details been confirmed to the Trust yet and those participating and if not, when do they expect to be confirmed?
The club are able to confirm today that the club shop is changing its opening hours, the community day vs Gillingham, the December POTM for the Trust and the Extra Time event, just not yet the fans forum event.
If there’s nothing further online by later in the week, will follow up with the Trust. However, they read what’s on here too, so I’m sure it’ll be sorted.
Quick look at the financial statements on 19:33 - Dec 30 by RAFCBLUE
I hope you are right 442 but in the current climate nothing is of a surprise to me.
We are only two weeks away; haven't the full details been confirmed to the Trust yet and those participating and if not, when do they expect to be confirmed?
The club are able to confirm today that the club shop is changing its opening hours, the community day vs Gillingham, the December POTM for the Trust and the Extra Time event, just not yet the fans forum event.
A great and informative read, so thanks to all who have provided figures/research. One quick question - is there any suggested figure for Hill's weekly wage? 39 months (and 33 in a lump sum) could be a very substantial figure... for example £500k if he was on £3k a week.
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Quick look at the financial statements on 16:55 - Jan 2 with 1838 views
Quick look at the financial statements on 18:41 - Dec 30 by RAFCBLUE
Thanks for this data, TS.
The more contributions there are to the original OP, the more holes begin to appear in the logic for slashing this season's playing budget and not backing a inexperienced manager in a League 1 campaign.
If those transfer fees for McGahey (£250k), Cannon (£150k), Rafferty (£150k) and Perkins did happen, that would give £500k as a ballpark estimate in the year to 31st May 2019.
Adshead moved to Norwich on 18th June 2019 which will be in the following financial year but will have seen some money come into the club over the summer.
It does also then raise the question of why people currently claim that we might be struggling financially now, because if we budgeted to lose £400k from a normal operating season to May 2019 with no special events but then raised £500k in transfer fees shouldn't that mean we made a profit in FY2019 or at least a near break even season?
The FY2020 gets even better financially since we have Adshead's transfer to Norwich, Dawson's transfer to Watford from WBA, the Man United game in the Carabao cup and the upcoming Newcastle FA Cup game - all vs a massively reduced playing budget. We must be making a profit this season.
If the Board backed a purported +30% increase (+700k) in the playing budget for last season, the Board subsequently recouped circa £500k from transfers.
We seemingly can put on free coach transport for the Boston game but we cannot back the manager with the right number of players and are choosing to close our club shop two days a week.
The only big expenditure unknowns of course are what it might have cost to sort out the pitch and/or to remove Keith Hill and Chris Beech from their contracts - both choices enacted by our current CEO on behalf of the Board, post Chris Dunphy.
I am not sure who said we would budget to lose 400k in FY 2019 on normal operations, but we lost 1.7m in FY 2018 before transfer fees etc, and we even had the Spurs money that year I think
The Squad in FY2019 wasn't trimmed, the 500k in fees you mention is less than the 750k we got in 18 so although we haven't received any financials ( but we should in March) I can't see anything other than a similar loss on normal business, and an even bigger loss on total business.
As regards 2020, I don't actually know how much the wage bill has been trimmed by, but I agree it should be a better year. However to cover any 2019 loss + what will still be an operating loss on normal business in 2020, I would imagine that the transfer fees & TV money would need to be of the order of 3m to break even over the 2 years on total business
We shouldn't be budgeting by cherry picking 1 year where we are doing relatively well, but need to use some sort of average. Any good players we sign will expect 3 year contracts, so you need to be able to predict revenues, TV money, transfers etc over a similar time period which is clearly not possible. Accordingly you then have to build in a level of risk, which as I said earlier is quite a "personal appetite"
I am not saying it is wrong to push out the boat, but if we did and transfer money dried up we would potentially run out of money very quickly ( remember that Assets are not necessarily cash but our ground too and would we want to be taking out loans against that?). I would say I am a moderate risk taker and I would rather see us only bring in new players as we get rid of existing ones rather than add more. However if the club decided to take a bigger risk I would still support the decision.
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Quick look at the financial statements on 18:17 - Jan 2 with 1755 views
Quick look at the financial statements on 16:55 - Jan 2 by Nigeriamark
I am not sure who said we would budget to lose 400k in FY 2019 on normal operations, but we lost 1.7m in FY 2018 before transfer fees etc, and we even had the Spurs money that year I think
The Squad in FY2019 wasn't trimmed, the 500k in fees you mention is less than the 750k we got in 18 so although we haven't received any financials ( but we should in March) I can't see anything other than a similar loss on normal business, and an even bigger loss on total business.
As regards 2020, I don't actually know how much the wage bill has been trimmed by, but I agree it should be a better year. However to cover any 2019 loss + what will still be an operating loss on normal business in 2020, I would imagine that the transfer fees & TV money would need to be of the order of 3m to break even over the 2 years on total business
We shouldn't be budgeting by cherry picking 1 year where we are doing relatively well, but need to use some sort of average. Any good players we sign will expect 3 year contracts, so you need to be able to predict revenues, TV money, transfers etc over a similar time period which is clearly not possible. Accordingly you then have to build in a level of risk, which as I said earlier is quite a "personal appetite"
I am not saying it is wrong to push out the boat, but if we did and transfer money dried up we would potentially run out of money very quickly ( remember that Assets are not necessarily cash but our ground too and would we want to be taking out loans against that?). I would say I am a moderate risk taker and I would rather see us only bring in new players as we get rid of existing ones rather than add more. However if the club decided to take a bigger risk I would still support the decision.
It sounds like you are suggesting that we are losing about £1.7 million/ season if we don’t sell a player or two, that’s a wrong assumption. Last season the outgoing Chairman suggested we lose about 400K/season but obviously Hills budget was increased by about 300K, when he stated that, none of the Directors challenged his comments. . Losing £400/500k / season is a sum that wasn’t disputed in a recent discussion with the CEO...we all know that we have to sell players or have some luck with cup draws to eat into that deficit. Bill Goodwin who was temporary CEO for a few months prior to his departure at the start of this year was on board with the financial figures and would confirm that we run roughly at the deficit which is suggested.
The playing budget must have been cut this season, a look at the squad will tell you that. If you are suggesting that the deficit has now risen to £1.7 million then why has it suddenly more than trebbled ,because it’s not been spent on recruitment and wages? If what you are suggesting is correct then the Club will probably go bust in a few years.
This calendar year we have brought in roughly over £2.5 million in extra money, money that wasn’t budgeted for, admittedly £900k of that will be paid during this year so we will have to wait fir that. Recently we have had the Hogan money, Dawson add on, Spurs, United , Newcastle money. We have also received very large sums in FA Cup television money, alongside transfer fees for Magahey, Adshead, Rafferty, Cannon. Now let’s just say that your assumptions that we are now losing £1.7 million/ year are correct, how wiould we possibly be able to even think about funding a new training complex on top of those hugh losses? I don’t think you have your forecasts right to be honest. For instance, you are suggesting we probably lost about £2.4 million pounds Year ending 2018 if you include the Spurs/ FA cup money, that can’t be right.
To be honest if we can’t make ends meet with the finances we’ve had coming into the Club over the last few years there is some thing going wrong. The transfer fees from Dawson, Hogan , numerous other players and the money from games against Spurs/ United/ Newcastle and the television and prize monies that generated are riches that other lower league clubs can only dream of.I don’t believe any other Club of our size in the lower leagues has brought in more money..money that more than makes up for our low attendances. Maybe we should look at the inside page of the matchday prigramne and the excessive amount of staff that the Club is now employing. The Club has never generated as much money as we have done over the last few years, this calendar year in particular.
[Post edited 2 Jan 2020 18:35]
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Quick look at the financial statements on 18:48 - Jan 2 with 1688 views
Quick look at the financial statements on 18:17 - Jan 2 by TalkingSutty
It sounds like you are suggesting that we are losing about £1.7 million/ season if we don’t sell a player or two, that’s a wrong assumption. Last season the outgoing Chairman suggested we lose about 400K/season but obviously Hills budget was increased by about 300K, when he stated that, none of the Directors challenged his comments. . Losing £400/500k / season is a sum that wasn’t disputed in a recent discussion with the CEO...we all know that we have to sell players or have some luck with cup draws to eat into that deficit. Bill Goodwin who was temporary CEO for a few months prior to his departure at the start of this year was on board with the financial figures and would confirm that we run roughly at the deficit which is suggested.
The playing budget must have been cut this season, a look at the squad will tell you that. If you are suggesting that the deficit has now risen to £1.7 million then why has it suddenly more than trebbled ,because it’s not been spent on recruitment and wages? If what you are suggesting is correct then the Club will probably go bust in a few years.
This calendar year we have brought in roughly over £2.5 million in extra money, money that wasn’t budgeted for, admittedly £900k of that will be paid during this year so we will have to wait fir that. Recently we have had the Hogan money, Dawson add on, Spurs, United , Newcastle money. We have also received very large sums in FA Cup television money, alongside transfer fees for Magahey, Adshead, Rafferty, Cannon. Now let’s just say that your assumptions that we are now losing £1.7 million/ year are correct, how wiould we possibly be able to even think about funding a new training complex on top of those hugh losses? I don’t think you have your forecasts right to be honest. For instance, you are suggesting we probably lost about £2.4 million pounds Year ending 2018 if you include the Spurs/ FA cup money, that can’t be right.
To be honest if we can’t make ends meet with the finances we’ve had coming into the Club over the last few years there is some thing going wrong. The transfer fees from Dawson, Hogan , numerous other players and the money from games against Spurs/ United/ Newcastle and the television and prize monies that generated are riches that other lower league clubs can only dream of.I don’t believe any other Club of our size in the lower leagues has brought in more money..money that more than makes up for our low attendances. Maybe we should look at the inside page of the matchday prigramne and the excessive amount of staff that the Club is now employing. The Club has never generated as much money as we have done over the last few years, this calendar year in particular.
[Post edited 2 Jan 2020 18:35]
I'm not suggesting or assuming anything or saying it is every season. I have just taken the numbers that have been submitted by the club themselves and have added a link that you can check yourself i.e facts. I also haven't said we are losing 2.4m in 2018, in fact I have quoted the actuals which I will repeat below
On normal business to YE 2018 we lost approx 1.7m Transfers & exceptional items pulled 1.4m of that back So in the end we lost 300k
So who disputed or said what in conversation is irrelevant once people have to legally produce a document stating the actual figures.
Perhaps last season there are some items no-one knows anything about and we will know in a few months
I'm not disputing that the current season will be better either but we are currently gambling on continued transfer money. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is within an acceptable level of risk, but if we keep pushing out the boat based on 1 good year we will get into real difficulty very quickly if transfer money dries up next season because most new players contracts will be 3 years and I can guarantee that if it goes tits up during the 2020/21 season they will still quite rightly expect to be paid in full as would all our other creditors.
So yes we can probably increase the quality of our team for the 2020/21 season, but if transfers dry up who will pay out the extra salaries for year 2 or 3 of these contracts? Clearly we could use up our assets or sell/take loans against the ground. We may also continue to get good money via our youth policy, but as we have increased our wage bill we would need to get even more from transfers than in previous years. Bury tried gambling actual money today against possible increased income in the future and got promoted but would you say it worked out well for them? Same with Stockport
[Post edited 2 Jan 2020 18:52]
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Quick look at the financial statements on 19:27 - Jan 2 with 1621 views
Quick look at the financial statements on 18:48 - Jan 2 by Nigeriamark
I'm not suggesting or assuming anything or saying it is every season. I have just taken the numbers that have been submitted by the club themselves and have added a link that you can check yourself i.e facts. I also haven't said we are losing 2.4m in 2018, in fact I have quoted the actuals which I will repeat below
On normal business to YE 2018 we lost approx 1.7m Transfers & exceptional items pulled 1.4m of that back So in the end we lost 300k
So who disputed or said what in conversation is irrelevant once people have to legally produce a document stating the actual figures.
Perhaps last season there are some items no-one knows anything about and we will know in a few months
I'm not disputing that the current season will be better either but we are currently gambling on continued transfer money. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is within an acceptable level of risk, but if we keep pushing out the boat based on 1 good year we will get into real difficulty very quickly if transfer money dries up next season because most new players contracts will be 3 years and I can guarantee that if it goes tits up during the 2020/21 season they will still quite rightly expect to be paid in full as would all our other creditors.
So yes we can probably increase the quality of our team for the 2020/21 season, but if transfers dry up who will pay out the extra salaries for year 2 or 3 of these contracts? Clearly we could use up our assets or sell/take loans against the ground. We may also continue to get good money via our youth policy, but as we have increased our wage bill we would need to get even more from transfers than in previous years. Bury tried gambling actual money today against possible increased income in the future and got promoted but would you say it worked out well for them? Same with Stockport
[Post edited 2 Jan 2020 18:52]
Mark thanks for your input and the time to compile it, just one thing, it's very rare for Dale to offer 3 year deals not that it would skew your'e figures or forecast. You rightly point out ongoing sales are the key without which, no amount of cost cutting certainly in the short term can fix.
Just to add if the current level of spend is what is necessary to compete in league one then Championship football would bankrupt us as it has done for several clubs recently.
[Post edited 2 Jan 2020 19:30]
This is not the time for bickering.
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Quick look at the financial statements on 19:38 - Jan 2 with 1591 views
Quick look at the financial statements on 18:48 - Jan 2 by Nigeriamark
I'm not suggesting or assuming anything or saying it is every season. I have just taken the numbers that have been submitted by the club themselves and have added a link that you can check yourself i.e facts. I also haven't said we are losing 2.4m in 2018, in fact I have quoted the actuals which I will repeat below
On normal business to YE 2018 we lost approx 1.7m Transfers & exceptional items pulled 1.4m of that back So in the end we lost 300k
So who disputed or said what in conversation is irrelevant once people have to legally produce a document stating the actual figures.
Perhaps last season there are some items no-one knows anything about and we will know in a few months
I'm not disputing that the current season will be better either but we are currently gambling on continued transfer money. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is within an acceptable level of risk, but if we keep pushing out the boat based on 1 good year we will get into real difficulty very quickly if transfer money dries up next season because most new players contracts will be 3 years and I can guarantee that if it goes tits up during the 2020/21 season they will still quite rightly expect to be paid in full as would all our other creditors.
So yes we can probably increase the quality of our team for the 2020/21 season, but if transfers dry up who will pay out the extra salaries for year 2 or 3 of these contracts? Clearly we could use up our assets or sell/take loans against the ground. We may also continue to get good money via our youth policy, but as we have increased our wage bill we would need to get even more from transfers than in previous years. Bury tried gambling actual money today against possible increased income in the future and got promoted but would you say it worked out well for them? Same with Stockport
[Post edited 2 Jan 2020 18:52]
Well you quoted us losing 1.7 million in year ending 2018 and suggested that might not have included the Spurs cup run/ money which would have taken it up to roughly £2.4 million if you included prize money/ TV money/ gate receipts .
If you look at the make up of our squad this season, the wage bill must be smaller, the CEO actually stated that we would be going with a smaller budget this year because we overspent last season. He was correct in what he said. I don’t believe the majority of players that we sign want 3 year deals, i don’t think it’s normal that we sign players on those terms.
We aren’t just reliant on raising income from selling players, we have three cup competitions and maybe bonus television money that can also eat into the deficit. We have to keep recycling players and recruiting to keep competitive and improve the odds of finding a saleable asset and improving the product on the pitch.
Obviously finances will always be tight but with the L1 solidarity payment and increase in away support etc, coupled with all the extra income we’ve generated over the last few years we should be able to fund the manageable debt. The key I think is to look after the product on the pitch rather than diverting monies elsewhere, a competitive first team will generate money.
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Quick look at the financial statements on 20:21 - Jan 2 with 1521 views
Quick look at the financial statements on 19:38 - Jan 2 by TalkingSutty
Well you quoted us losing 1.7 million in year ending 2018 and suggested that might not have included the Spurs cup run/ money which would have taken it up to roughly £2.4 million if you included prize money/ TV money/ gate receipts .
If you look at the make up of our squad this season, the wage bill must be smaller, the CEO actually stated that we would be going with a smaller budget this year because we overspent last season. He was correct in what he said. I don’t believe the majority of players that we sign want 3 year deals, i don’t think it’s normal that we sign players on those terms.
We aren’t just reliant on raising income from selling players, we have three cup competitions and maybe bonus television money that can also eat into the deficit. We have to keep recycling players and recruiting to keep competitive and improve the odds of finding a saleable asset and improving the product on the pitch.
Obviously finances will always be tight but with the L1 solidarity payment and increase in away support etc, coupled with all the extra income we’ve generated over the last few years we should be able to fund the manageable debt. The key I think is to look after the product on the pitch rather than diverting monies elsewhere, a competitive first team will generate money.
I suggest you click the link I provided and doing it yourself. The YTD May 2018 numbers are in detail so you can work it out yourself. I did not suggest the Spurs money might not be there. Quite the opposite, It should be in the 1.4m of exceptional items as I think the game was in Feb/March
In terms of being reliant on transfers, you are not correct. To operate at the level of salaries and operating costs we are almost entirely reliant on the transfer fees otherwise we would need to knock about a million of the salary bill to make ends meet. The Cup runs and prize money are useful but nowhere near the level of transfer money we have funded the club with. They are even less reliable than transfers because even if we get to the later rounds of a cup there are more poor draws available than good ones. After Liverpool in the late 90's we went years without a big draw. We have just had Spurs, MUFC and Newcastle in a 3 year period but I don't expect that be regular
I am not actually disagreeing with you that we couldn't gamble more on better players, but you then have to accept the consequences if it doesn't work because whatever actual money you pay on the squad, it has to be paid in addition to what you are already running up in bills.just 3 players on 1 grand a week for 2 years adds 300k in costs. I agree we need better players but would prefer that it is funded by booting out non performers to free up wages rather than just adding players. The club did significantly increase the budget prior to the 2017/18 season ( I assume because of the 2016/17 windfall) which Hilly spent on the biggest squad we have ever had, yet we had our worse 2 seasons. Accordingly costs increased, but revenue didn't in proportion and I think that 2018/19 numbers due in march will show we are losing money hand over fist on normal business. However I can't prove that because there may be a big windfall I am not aware of. IMO January is not the best time to spend unless we can get loans or 6 month contracts like last year but again it is just my opinion
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Quick look at the financial statements on 20:56 - Jan 2 with 1466 views
Quick look at the financial statements on 20:21 - Jan 2 by Nigeriamark
I suggest you click the link I provided and doing it yourself. The YTD May 2018 numbers are in detail so you can work it out yourself. I did not suggest the Spurs money might not be there. Quite the opposite, It should be in the 1.4m of exceptional items as I think the game was in Feb/March
In terms of being reliant on transfers, you are not correct. To operate at the level of salaries and operating costs we are almost entirely reliant on the transfer fees otherwise we would need to knock about a million of the salary bill to make ends meet. The Cup runs and prize money are useful but nowhere near the level of transfer money we have funded the club with. They are even less reliable than transfers because even if we get to the later rounds of a cup there are more poor draws available than good ones. After Liverpool in the late 90's we went years without a big draw. We have just had Spurs, MUFC and Newcastle in a 3 year period but I don't expect that be regular
I am not actually disagreeing with you that we couldn't gamble more on better players, but you then have to accept the consequences if it doesn't work because whatever actual money you pay on the squad, it has to be paid in addition to what you are already running up in bills.just 3 players on 1 grand a week for 2 years adds 300k in costs. I agree we need better players but would prefer that it is funded by booting out non performers to free up wages rather than just adding players. The club did significantly increase the budget prior to the 2017/18 season ( I assume because of the 2016/17 windfall) which Hilly spent on the biggest squad we have ever had, yet we had our worse 2 seasons. Accordingly costs increased, but revenue didn't in proportion and I think that 2018/19 numbers due in march will show we are losing money hand over fist on normal business. However I can't prove that because there may be a big windfall I am not aware of. IMO January is not the best time to spend unless we can get loans or 6 month contracts like last year but again it is just my opinion
I agree with your last paragraph but I’m not suggesting taking a gamble on better players, i’m suggesting we carry on doing what has proven to be successful over the last ten years or so, going back to Lambert, Murray etc etc. As you rightly say, constantly look to recycle the squad and get rid of the dead wood. We have a blueprint that works, sign players on free transfers and improve them to sell on. It’s easier said than done but there is no reason why we can’t continue to do it. Cut out the old players who will be some of our highest earners and utilise the wages saved to bring in a younger replacement in the hope of selling them for big bucks.
Your second paragraph suggests we need to raise a million pound through player sales every season to operate as we are now. In other words we are losing £1 million/ season if we don’t? If I’ve got that wrong I apologise, I’ve never heard that £1 million figure quoted before. Neither selling a player or making money in the Cup is guaranteed but we normally do a bit of both. I’m actually glad that juggling the financial balls is so precarious because it backs up my theory that we can’t afford to purchase and fund our own training complex, we couldn’t afford it now as a L1 Club so it would be practically impossible in L2 with the loss of funding and low attendances. We are struggling to make ends meet as it is and we’ve never had as much money coming into the Club in our history as we have now.
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Quick look at the financial statements on 21:19 - Jan 2 with 1423 views
Quick look at the financial statements on 20:56 - Jan 2 by TalkingSutty
I agree with your last paragraph but I’m not suggesting taking a gamble on better players, i’m suggesting we carry on doing what has proven to be successful over the last ten years or so, going back to Lambert, Murray etc etc. As you rightly say, constantly look to recycle the squad and get rid of the dead wood. We have a blueprint that works, sign players on free transfers and improve them to sell on. It’s easier said than done but there is no reason why we can’t continue to do it. Cut out the old players who will be some of our highest earners and utilise the wages saved to bring in a younger replacement in the hope of selling them for big bucks.
Your second paragraph suggests we need to raise a million pound through player sales every season to operate as we are now. In other words we are losing £1 million/ season if we don’t? If I’ve got that wrong I apologise, I’ve never heard that £1 million figure quoted before. Neither selling a player or making money in the Cup is guaranteed but we normally do a bit of both. I’m actually glad that juggling the financial balls is so precarious because it backs up my theory that we can’t afford to purchase and fund our own training complex, we couldn’t afford it now as a L1 Club so it would be practically impossible in L2 with the loss of funding and low attendances. We are struggling to make ends meet as it is and we’ve never had as much money coming into the Club in our history as we have now.
But the numbers do suggest that we need that kind of money from players sales and cup runs to cover operating losses. In 2019/20 that may be lower because of the cutting of playing budget, but I can see how the extra cash can easily be swallowed. DIrectors have a duty of care in running the club prudently so I can only assume that the 2018 budget had allowed for expected future exceptional income. But we can't rely on that every year
I agree we can't afford a training complex if these numbers are true. We do need a replay against Newcastle at SJP to add another lump of cash
The upcoming fans forum should make this clearer for us.
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Quick look at the financial statements on 21:29 - Jan 2 with 1401 views
What would crowds be like if we were in the Championship? Would the increase in crowd and other money be enough to sustain the club for one season at least?
'Only happy when you've got it often makes you miss the journey'
Quick look at the financial statements on 21:29 - Jan 2 by James1980
What would crowds be like if we were in the Championship? Would the increase in crowd and other money be enough to sustain the club for one season at least?
I think you get £7 million/season in payments from the EFL as a Championship Club and obviously home attendances would increase. It would be viable but you would have to sign players on short contracts or ensure there was a relegation clause in place.i dont think it would do us any financial harm if we planned it properly but it would take a minor miracle not to be relegated in the first season. We couldn’t afford to pay the wages of Championship standard footballers even with a much increased budget.
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Quick look at the financial statements on 21:54 - Jan 2 with 1352 views
Quick look at the financial statements on 20:56 - Jan 2 by TalkingSutty
I agree with your last paragraph but I’m not suggesting taking a gamble on better players, i’m suggesting we carry on doing what has proven to be successful over the last ten years or so, going back to Lambert, Murray etc etc. As you rightly say, constantly look to recycle the squad and get rid of the dead wood. We have a blueprint that works, sign players on free transfers and improve them to sell on. It’s easier said than done but there is no reason why we can’t continue to do it. Cut out the old players who will be some of our highest earners and utilise the wages saved to bring in a younger replacement in the hope of selling them for big bucks.
Your second paragraph suggests we need to raise a million pound through player sales every season to operate as we are now. In other words we are losing £1 million/ season if we don’t? If I’ve got that wrong I apologise, I’ve never heard that £1 million figure quoted before. Neither selling a player or making money in the Cup is guaranteed but we normally do a bit of both. I’m actually glad that juggling the financial balls is so precarious because it backs up my theory that we can’t afford to purchase and fund our own training complex, we couldn’t afford it now as a L1 Club so it would be practically impossible in L2 with the loss of funding and low attendances. We are struggling to make ends meet as it is and we’ve never had as much money coming into the Club in our history as we have now.
"We can’t afford to purchase and fund our own training complex, we couldn’t afford it now as a L1 Club so it would be practically impossible in L2 with the loss of funding and low attendances"....... Which makes doing a deal with the Rochdale Sports Club at Redbrook an even more obvious way forward. The Government is putting £500m into football pitches to increase the amount of football that can be played. This is the wettest town in England with a population of over 50K, The Club, Council and RSC need to get their heads together and make a bid for half a dozen or more all-weather pitches and the upgrading of the pitches at St Clement's to create a complex that can be used as a training facility and academy pitch, whilst still being usable for Lacrosse and St Clements. RAFC might be able to lever some money in via an FA grant. And bearing in mind this is one of the worst wards in the country for early deaths, the local NHS might be able to add some money to the pot too. This requires some urgent discussion and planning now, not soon or sometime, this is an opportunity to create a great facility for the club and the town and need all hands on deck now.
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