| In defence of Keith Hill 09:51 - Jan 2 with 10093 views | ColDale |
The Donny game was inexcusable, and for me KH was to blame for that one game more than he has been for any game in either spell in charge. It was up there with the hammering we had at home to Stevenage during Chris Beech's time as caretaker, and we were sitting ducks from the first minute. Had it been 7 or 8, I doubt we could really have offered any complaints.
We are in a horrible position. Forget the league position and points tally for now, it's been a long while since we've had back to back hammerings like this, and you can easily see why so many fans are feeling the way they are doing. It's out of order to question loyalty or sanity of those offering criticism.
But I'm still firmly in the belief that there is no better manager out there than Keith Hill to transform the future of this football team.
I've alluded to a few times that I see the transfer window as one our biggest problems. Things which were an issue in September are still an issue last week in December, and thats a long time to deal with those same problems. We're brittle and lack leadership on the pitch and throughout the season, one goal becomes two becomes three becomes four so easily.
It's been clear we are very brittle. You hit us once, and we become so vulnerable to can kill a game off there and then. That's why in my opinion, we keep conceding four goals. And opposition teams who scout will pick up on this and will report back to managers that we are a fragile team that if you come at us hard and fast and keep plugging away, you can win the game in the first half hour of a game.
And then problems exacerbate. Our youth policy is brilliant and rightly the envy of the lower leagues. But the team at Donny was packed out with kids, and they're the wrong players to be in there at this moment. We looked a bunch of frightened rabbits yesterday, devoid of any confidence whatsoever, and its been a long time since I've seen a Dale side play in way which looks like they didn't want to be there. As a fan, I don't recall back to back games where I've been desperate for the final whistle as much I have in the last two games.
Where was the leadership? With the honourable exception of Henderson who leads by example rather than as your traditional captain, it's nowhere to be seen. You could argue that our only other senior pro out there yesterday in the starting line up was Matty Done. Him and Hendo aside, you're looking at a set of players between 17 and 23. Many are experienced in terms of appearances but that's not to say that they are capable in terms of responsibility.
So why stick with Hilly if many of the problems are of his own making?
Well, historically, he has got a proven track record of assembling sides that are good enough to compete at every level. We know this side needs sorting out, and I'm confident that Hilly can do this. Bringing in a new manager would bring a financial strain that would diminish any ability to make necessary changes. I don't look at our current squad as one who are being mismanaged that just need a new boss to bring out the best in them. We need changes and new recruits to bring the best out of them.We need big characters of the likes of Stephen Dawson or Peter Clarke (not suggesting either as possible signings) who will help to bring out the best in the younger players who are finding things tough. The likes of Camps, Inman, Adshead will only benefit from someone else alongside taking on board that responsibility.
Well for me it's clear that there is a real intention to sort things out. Yesterday was a case of short term pain for long term gain, and the seemingly imminent departure of Perkins is an admittance of getting things wrong and doing something about it. We're not a club who bathes in gold so if the plan is to change things up, we have to start that process by freeing up wages where we can. If Perkins goes, it's not to save a few bob, but to use those wages elsewhere and the speed with which this is happening in this transfer window suggests that wheels are in motion.
Same with Lillis. We all know Lillis is better than Norman and Moore, but yesterday's team selection suggested to me that he wants a new keeper, and perhaps the only way that can happen is with the departure of Lillis. Will he play again for us? Possibly not (but nothing will surprise me with the keepers this season), but it strikes me that its an attempt to offload Lillis to free up wages to bring in a replacement. Lillis deserves better than this but changes are needed.
Hilly deserves the right to try and sort out the problems even if that is at the expense of relegation. We are not one of those clubs who sacks managers at a whim. Bury have had 8 managers and Oldham have had 12 managers during Hill's time in charge. Meaningless to our situation to an extent but it shows as we all know that the constant turnaround of managers is not a route to success. The football world has this culture of sacking when things go wrong, but we're different, and we need to give Keith Hill the opportunity to make things right. Whether thats down to previous successes by him earning that right, whether its from a belief in Hill's abilities or whether its just because its the better way to run a football club, we have to stick by KH and allow him to put things right.
Hill has to do things differently in these next few months, and he'd benefit greatly for someone to sit him down and have a word with him. One of the things I've loved about Hilly over the years is that he does things his own way. He'll be openly honest in his interviews, even if its too honest at times, but I much prefer that approach to the cliché filled bollócks that some managers come out with, tickling the egos of the supporters. At the moment, he has lost the support of a large number of our supporters and he has to do things to get them back on board.
That honesty needs to include more honesty about the squad. I've been convinced for a long while that the lack of info about injuries is KH following the Dave Brailsford marginal gains approach. That being if you can improve everything by 1%, the overall gain will be significant. Not informing fans that (for example) Joe Rafferty is injured and can't play at Donny might have little impact in that fixture but over the course of a season, withholding that information might just lead to us getting an extra point somewhere along the line. And how many points did we stay up by last season?
But the downside is a growing disconnect which creates its own problems. It fuels the rumour mill, leading to false stories, and more sticks to beat the management with. I don't want to be talking out of turn, but you take a player like Zac Clough who's never been fit during his time with the club through no fault of anyone. But the lack of info has lead to suggestions of fallings out, favouritism of other players etc none of which are true.
This openness is not the KH way of doing things for that Brailsford philosophy I alluded to, but he's in new territory at the moment in terms of losing the support of the fanbase which brings its own problems in itself. The reaction to Norman's blunder yesterday wasn't a reaction to the blunder itself but more to the ongoing goalkeeping changes. An identical error by Lillis would not have seen the same reaction but fans are fed up with seeing change after change after change. He needs to on rebuilding that faith in supporters. Traditionally, winning matches is all that it would take but there's more needed.
He's capable of doing it. He's more than capable of doing so. it might be outside his comfort zone and not the way he wants to do things,but it would reckless to just go on doing what he is doing and expecting things to be different.
I do think there's an element of realism that's needed amongst the supporters that can help. The top ten finishes mean little to our current squad. We went into this season as a 20th placed team capable of 51 points, and on the basis of this season, we've shown signs of improvement on last season. The aim as of now is safety and we need 21 points from 20 games to do so, a not unreasonable task. Last year was not a blip so we should not look upon things as being a return to the top ten, but rather looking towards progress more towards half way. That's not a lack of ambition, it the reality of the now.
We are a side that are capable of winning matches. The wins against Southend and Blackpool weren't undeserved. As is stands, we are a side that can grind out wins and then take a battering the week later as demonstrated between Xmas and New Year. With the right changes, we should be capable of getting the five or six wins we need from the twenty games to stay up. I'd like to think with the right changes, we can get things back on track to get those points to stay up. The upheaval of a change at this stage and recruitment of someone unaware of our strengths and weaknesses could put all of that in jeopardy. Sacking KH now could take 3 or 4 matches to recruit a replacement leaving a limited amount of time for a new fella to analyse and recruit. At least with sticking by KH, that process is already up and running.
I don't blame any supporter for feeling the way they do, especially those who've endured both the Bradford and Doncaster games, and no one could deny that changes are needed but I don't believe that change is the manager. Give the man who has brought us more success than every other manager in our history put together the opportunity to make the changes he's not had chance to do over the past four months. |  | | |  |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:07 - Jan 2 with 6093 views | scarrow |
It's experienced heads needed, I agree with you there. Players who are late 20s with game knowledge. Yesterday was a stuffing waiting to happen with such a young inexperienced starting line up. It's no surprise that we looked better with Andrew and Inman on the pitch.
I'd put a hold on the Perkins deal until replacements are in. |  |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:07 - Jan 2 with 6090 views | antmarina |
100% agree with you Col. |  | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:09 - Jan 2 with 6065 views | DaleFan7 |
If this had have been posted 6-12 months ago I'd have fully agreed with it. Since then, we've seen no improvement in our inability to defend set pieces, no ability in any player in the squad other than Henderson of scoring more than 3-4 goals a season, no sign that Hill has the capability of playing players in the correct position and getting them to play a style of football that is remotely easy on the eye.
In my humble opinion if he is to stay on its Hill himself that needs to change. He needs to be sat down and talked to. He can't go on blaming fans, blaming players, telling everyone to take shocking performances on the chin. Points wise we're better off than we were last season but for some reason watching the team this season feels worse and the team's confidence seems shot to peaces. Most of the problems at the moment stop with the manager with absolutely no sign at the moment of anything changing. I think it's gone past the point of being able to be changed, we all know Hill is too stubborn to say to himself that he's the problem and he needs to go back to the beginning, build a rapport with fans, rethink what he can do with the current squad of players and how a couple of signings/loanees can reinvigorate the squad.
He has been the best manager we've had, I've supported him despite never really liking his demeanor. He's made himself virtually impossible to support now for me and him and the club have done that themselves. I no longer have the faith that he can turn it around. Whether or not now is the right time to let go, I don't know. It is not fun being a Rochdale supporter at the moment, regardless of our league position. [Post edited 2 Jan 2019 10:12]
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:11 - Jan 2 with 6048 views | JimmyRustler |
With respect Col, he's had more than 4 months to make changes. The issues we have now are exactly the same ones we had last season (he's also somehow managed to create new ones off his own back).
He's not learning and we have seen time and time again that he's too stubborn to change or, if he does, he reverts back to the same shite a game or two after with a "Remember that I still rule the roost mentality".
Where is the light at the end of the tunnel? The only saving grace is that we now have a transfer window to sort things out. As it stands now, we are playing like a team who will be relegated come the end of the season. Forget current projections, forget points per game and forget comparisons to last season. We are on a downward trajectory, confidence is shot and the last two games are as bad as anything I've seen in a long time. The Southend result was excellent but the Blackpool game resulted in an uninspiring win against 10 men in which we had to score late on. If Blackpool wanted anything from that game, they could have quite easily gone and got it.
KH has got a proven track record but not when it comes to the most important thing in our current situation - falling on his sword and eating a big slice of humble pie. The offloading of Perkins is hopefully an admission that he got things wrong in the Summer and it's certainly a start but there's only so much you can do in a month. Even then, the new players will need time to bed in and the same problems will still be there (set piece weakness is the one that worries me the most).
A change of both personnel and approach is needed if we are to get ourselves out of this mess (and let's make no bones about it, we are in a real mess at present). In years gone by, I would be 100% confident in Hill to get it right. Right now, I'm not so sure and only time will tell [Post edited 2 Jan 2019 10:20]
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:12 - Jan 2 with 6039 views | scarrow |
It's the lack of improvement defensively and goalkeeping wise which is the concern. Which is where serious questions about the coaching need to be asked. | |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:27 - Jan 2 with 5921 views | TomRAFC |
Brilliant post Col.
It’s as close as can be to my argument as to why we should have kept Hill last season, but now we are well into a second season of this my mind has changed.
Keith is without doubt the best manager we have ever had at the club, but it doesn’t seem to be the same Keith anymore. Our success often came from having a team that was greater than the sum of its parts and as you rightly said, the transfer windows have not gone well. That doesn’t seem to be the only issue though as it was also a team with a clear style/tactical approach and a team with excellent fitness levels. Those don’t seem to be there anymore and are some of the core responsibilities of the manager. Things are being done differently from the successful years we had in League One.
Hill absolutely deserved a chance to turn it round last season, but I don’t feel what we are seeing is a turn around.
When it comes to things like the constant switching of keepers, and what sometimes seems like petulant decision making, it does feel like he is being inconsiderate of the players and the fans. It’s understandable that it’s taken its toll.
I feel that as good of a manager as Keith can be, he is lacking the humility to make the necessary changes. Lots of the things you point out that Keith is good at I now feel inclined to say Keith was good at. I suppose where we differ is that while yes, Hill definitely does want to turn things around, I don’t see any sensible indication that alongside this lack of tactics, that he intends to do anything differently.
So it’s with a very heavy heart that I’d like to see a different manager given the benefit of a the transfer window. | |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:30 - Jan 2 with 5901 views | windowsbug |
Has no one thought that Hill wants to get sacked, take the huge pay off and go to do other things. |  | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:31 - Jan 2 with 5892 views | SalwaDale |
Not for the first time Col, you have put my thoughts into words far better than I can. Thank you. |  |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:07 - Jan 2 with 5728 views | SaxonDale |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:31 - Jan 2 by SalwaDale |
Not for the first time Col, you have put my thoughts into words far better than I can. Thank you. |
Agreed, brilliantly put Col. |  | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:08 - Jan 2 with 5727 views | jonesy |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:30 - Jan 2 by windowsbug |
Has no one thought that Hill wants to get sacked, take the huge pay off and go to do other things. |
Hope not, but as my son says it seems to work regularly for Mourinho! | | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:18 - Jan 2 with 5653 views | Nigeriamark |
Good post Col
Agree on the old head leadership being missing. If we can offload some players then we need 3 “old Heads” down the spine of the team. A cH who is a leader, a battling Gary Jones type midfielder and someone up front to support Hendo & get some goals. I feel the latter would be out of our pay range unless there is a club who needs a player to get some game time. However the CH and midfielder could be within our budget if we free up some funds from outgoing players
The GK situation is one of the most bizarre things I have seen in all my time of Rochdale supporting ( almost 50 years). How many teams have ever multi - rotated this position and been successful at any level. I wouldn’t want to be wasting money on this position for the rest of this season so KH needs to make a call and pick 1. I would prefer Lillis but would be happy with giving KHs choice the rest of the season
Finally as has beeen posted, we need to be more aggressive at home whoever we play. 1 1/2 seasons of poor play at a time where we have been top 10 on away form since Jan last year. It seems to blow the arguement about how KH man manages the players otherwise the away form would be affected too.
As you say Col, something is not right and it points to KH needing to forget what he has done in the past when we have been up there and start to act as the manager of a struggling team. Perhaps he can’t do it but I would still give him this transfer window & the next 2 months to see where we are. as yet we are not in the bottom 4 but as one of the more positive posters, the game yesterday even has me worrie. I don’t think they were as good a team as Bradford, but we got battered |  | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:20 - Jan 2 with 5644 views | TVOS1907 |
Do we operate with a different transfer window to all the other clubs? |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:28 - Jan 2 with 5591 views | rochdaleriddler |
A better way of gaining an advantage over our rivals, would be to put fear into them with our displays, as we used to. I do not see Doncaster fretting over whether Rafferty was playing or not, they knew we would capitulate whoever played there. Keith Hill is a busted flush |  |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:32 - Jan 2 with 5565 views | frenzied |
I will be there Sat to cheer the lads on..
Whats happened has happened..draw a line under it and move on..the entire situation will be dealt with at the end of the season ..will he stay.. will he go.. will he walk?..not a clue.
As a support we just need to support come hell or high water..energy spent moaning, booing getting on the players or managers back during the game is completed wasted.
These are halcyon days for the Dale...I know it doesn't feel like it... | | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:36 - Jan 2 with 5546 views | rochdaleriddler |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:32 - Jan 2 by frenzied |
I will be there Sat to cheer the lads on..
Whats happened has happened..draw a line under it and move on..the entire situation will be dealt with at the end of the season ..will he stay.. will he go.. will he walk?..not a clue.
As a support we just need to support come hell or high water..energy spent moaning, booing getting on the players or managers back during the game is completed wasted.
These are halcyon days for the Dale...I know it doesn't feel like it... |
So will i, and never booed a player yet. If we capitulate again, and no sign of improvement is evident, I may have a little Hill out at the dale end of the game | |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:42 - Jan 2 with 5509 views | 100notout |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:20 - Jan 2 by TVOS1907 |
Do we operate with a different transfer window to all the other clubs? |
??? | |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:43 - Jan 2 with 5503 views | aleanddale |
Great post Col,
better summed up than I could manage. | | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:43 - Jan 2 with 5499 views | TVOS1907 |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:42 - Jan 2 by 100notout |
??? |
I'm unsure as to why Col has mentioned this so often.
We have the same transfer window as everyone else. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:45 - Jan 2 with 5491 views | boromat |
I'm on board with your points Col.
The experienced players point is the main one for me and Keith thought he'd done the business in the summer that would plug that hole in Perkins and Wilbraham and we were all pretty happy about those signings. Unfortunately they've not worked out and Keith only now in January can start to work to improve the situation. I'm sure if he can we'll see some experience come in the problem is what quality will we get for our budget in a January transfer window? We shall see. | |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:50 - Jan 2 with 5456 views | jonahwhereru |
Well said Col.
Stated on other threads Keith’s job should be safe until such time as we regress to where he inherited the team from. Having said that it is only tenable if the team battles and shows spirit, spineless performances will hasten Hill’s departure.
Sure I an a trade unionist so am loathed to support actions that lead to anyone becoming unemployed. However I do believe that one change is needed at the club. I don’t know what objectives Collis has but none of the keepers seemed to have improved any aspect of their game while he has been coaching them. Last season at Southend Moore was outstanding when coming for and handling crosses, I think he has actually gone backwards. Time for change.
I have always been a proud Rochdale supporter. I don’t want to turn into someone who whispers it.
Please Keith some grit and determination from management and players so I can maintain that pride.
UTD | | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:52 - Jan 2 with 5444 views | tony_roch975 |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:45 - Jan 2 by boromat |
I'm on board with your points Col.
The experienced players point is the main one for me and Keith thought he'd done the business in the summer that would plug that hole in Perkins and Wilbraham and we were all pretty happy about those signings. Unfortunately they've not worked out and Keith only now in January can start to work to improve the situation. I'm sure if he can we'll see some experience come in the problem is what quality will we get for our budget in a January transfer window? We shall see. |
We weren't - ask DAlien (who's defended Perkins through thick & thin), a number of us were highly critical of those 2 signings. | |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:54 - Jan 2 with 5424 views | fitzochris |
Some good points there, Col. I don’t think anybody wants Hill’s reign to end in this manner and if he can sort it out in January, I’m sure the majority will be happy it is he that does it rather than someone else.
However, I must pick up this comment: “But the lack of info has lead to suggestions of fallings out, favouritism of other players etc none of which are true.”
I know for a fact there have been fallings out. Now, only someone who has been brought up in bubble wrap would think there are never fallings out in the dressing room, and there were fallings out during Hill’s successful periods too. It seems Hill is trying to remove those he’s fallen out with and he’s done that before, too. There’s nothing new in this and we shouldn’t pretend otherwise.
I think he needs to listen to some of the complaints he is getting from within and then maybe reassess his approach. |  |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:56 - Jan 2 with 5411 views | boromat |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 11:52 - Jan 2 by tony_roch975 |
We weren't - ask DAlien (who's defended Perkins through thick & thin), a number of us were highly critical of those 2 signings. |
Maybe most of us then 😂. I remember the majority of posters being happy to see some experienced players come in. Only a few of the grumpy lot moaning about they're ages 😂. | |
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| In defence of Keith Hill on 12:07 - Jan 2 with 5343 views | soulboy |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 10:30 - Jan 2 by windowsbug |
Has no one thought that Hill wants to get sacked, take the huge pay off and go to do other things. |
Dont talk wet. |  | | |
| In defence of Keith Hill on 12:17 - Jan 2 with 5296 views | DaleiLama |
Always been pro-Keith and make no bones about it. I posted pre-Christmas that we haven't got a crisis on our hands and am still of this opinion. Both Col on this thread and RAFCBlue on the Unity thread have put very reasoned, logical arguments for keeping the status quo. The end of the season is the time to make changes in my view, if indeed changes need to be made. Seen many impassioned counter-arguments to this, but none have changed my mind on this. I do think we are currently sailing towards very dangerous waters, however.
Keith is never going to be all things to all men. He's Mr. Marmite as well as being the best manager Dale have ever had. He's got too big a squad of players, who he can't make a consistently good team out of. He's got a chance for a partial reset to try to improve the squad, put a more competitive, functioning team out each week and get us safe. At the very least, he deserves the chance to steady the ship and be judged on the second half of the season too, if his heart is still in it.
One worrying aspect which is coming out of many recent posts is the suggestion that some players actively want to leave. Whilst this may not be a huge issue today, it could affect our ability to attract talent in the future if the perception of being at RAFC goes from being a step up on the career ladder to a potential backwards step. This on top of his relationship with the fans, which has been done to death, but which appears to be a repeat of his time at Barnsley pre-Hexit (pt. 1) must be making his job much more difficult and ratcheting up the pressure on him. Hardly any wonder he doesn't look happy a lot of the time, but it is what it is. Like 442, I feel we are at a crossroads currently. My concern is Keith threw the old map away and he can't get a satellite signal on his satnav. I hope we find our direction again. I hope we find a way to start playing more entertaining football, amassing points and making gamedays fun again for all concerned. If not it will be a long season watching more games like the last two and some tough choices will then have to be made at season's end. [Post edited 2 Jan 2019 12:26]
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