| another 2 million invested on 14:28 - Mar 24 with 1609 views | Whiterockin |
| another 2 million invested on 13:50 - Mar 24 by SullutaCreturned |
First paragraoh, utter nonsense, the club is not worth 2 million mre because they have put 2 million in.
Have you heard of the multivariate model?
https://www.aranca.com/knowledge-library/articles/investment-research/multivaria
I think you have just amply demonstrated that YOU do not understand inflation. It increases the running costs, it does NOT directly increase the value of the club because there are so many variables to add in. If "inflation matches dilution" is a pile of nonsense. The clubs value will rise if we are promoted because our revenue will rise by multiples but even so, it may not match the total of dilution, seeing as that could be an ongoing problem for Morris.
Match funding doesn't preven share dilution, if he puts money into the club it's not buying shares, he has to buy more shares to prevent dilution.
DC United fans are very angry with their owners, ann ongoing theme for Kaplan and Levein. In May 2023 they were valued at 700 million dollars. That is based largely on revenue streams I think as I believe they lease the ground, like we do. The league system out there is different to ours but if the club keeps doing badly then the value will fall. Players will want to leave, revenue will drop, assets will be devalued.
One last thing, your point about inflation, it doesn't matter how hgh inflation is, a club can still lose value, a relegation, selling players, revenue streams dropping and something you seem to have forgotten, even if you aren't relegated, of you pay 10 million for a player and he is a complete flop, will anybody pay 10 million to take him off your hands, what do you think Yates' value is today?
Now, sweating assets
‘sweating’ assets the process of increasing the profits generated from a company's ASSETS where the RETURN ON CAPITAL EMPLOYED is inadequate. This could involve increasing selling prices of products; reducing unit production and selling costs; increasing sales volumes using present assets; or reducing the FIXED ASSETS and CURRENT ASSETS employed to achieve the present sales volume. Sweating assets is often a strategy employed after a company has been taken over.
Now how rich are Kaplan and Levein, can they continue to lose tens of millions per year? |
Yes they lease the ground and there is a caveat in the lease ensuring that DC stay at the ground, making sure that no owner can flip the franchise and move elsewhere. |  | |  |
| another 2 million invested on 15:39 - Mar 24 with 1532 views | max936 |
| another 2 million invested on 13:59 - Mar 24 by swan_si |
Max, why did you down arrow a newspaper report? 😂😂😂 |
Because it was you who posted it  |  |
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| another 2 million invested on 15:48 - Mar 24 with 1522 views | QJumpingJack |
I think certain posters on this thread need to remember if it was not for the Swans Trust and Mel Nurse in 2002 then we may not have a club today.
The work of people like Ricard Lillicrap should never be forgotten. And if I remember correctly - Leigh Dineen was part of the Trust at the start around the time of the Patti Pavililion. Those days have to be remembered. |  | | |
| another 2 million invested on 16:04 - Mar 24 with 1510 views | swan_si |
| another 2 million invested on 15:39 - Mar 24 by max936 |
Because it was you who posted it |
I admire your honesty. 👍 |  | | |
| another 2 million invested on 17:58 - Mar 24 with 1445 views | union_jack |
| another 2 million invested on 15:39 - Mar 24 by max936 |
Because it was you who posted it |
😂 |  |
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| another 2 million invested on 18:30 - Mar 24 with 1409 views | BillyChong |
| another 2 million invested on 13:43 - Mar 24 by ReslovenSwan1 |
They are free citizens. The US people wanted to buy their voting rights and they agreed a price. The Trust could have sold their voting right s presumably. I do not want them calling the shots. Their decision makeing has been very poor.
Wrexham Trust ran their club and eventually gave up selling it for pennies, tired and dissilusioned. |
The Wrexham Trust saved the club, had a good stab at getting promotion on a couple of occasions and left it debt free for new owners.
They didn’t ’sell it for pennies’. How much would you expect to pay for a national league club? The deal was based on a promise of investment which was honoured.
Prior to selling the trust apparently rejected numerous other potential buyers. Credit to them for their due diligence. They could have as you accuse ‘given up’ way before finding suitable buyers. | | | |
| another 2 million invested on 23:18 - Mar 24 with 1325 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| another 2 million invested on 14:28 - Mar 24 by Whiterockin |
Yes they lease the ground and there is a caveat in the lease ensuring that DC stay at the ground, making sure that no owner can flip the franchise and move elsewhere. |
Audi Field is jointly owned by DC United and Washington District. It has excellent connections. DC put $150m into thecontrction costs. |  |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| another 2 million invested on 23:53 - Mar 24 with 1303 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| another 2 million invested on 13:50 - Mar 24 by SullutaCreturned |
First paragraoh, utter nonsense, the club is not worth 2 million mre because they have put 2 million in.
Have you heard of the multivariate model?
https://www.aranca.com/knowledge-library/articles/investment-research/multivaria
I think you have just amply demonstrated that YOU do not understand inflation. It increases the running costs, it does NOT directly increase the value of the club because there are so many variables to add in. If "inflation matches dilution" is a pile of nonsense. The clubs value will rise if we are promoted because our revenue will rise by multiples but even so, it may not match the total of dilution, seeing as that could be an ongoing problem for Morris.
Match funding doesn't preven share dilution, if he puts money into the club it's not buying shares, he has to buy more shares to prevent dilution.
DC United fans are very angry with their owners, ann ongoing theme for Kaplan and Levein. In May 2023 they were valued at 700 million dollars. That is based largely on revenue streams I think as I believe they lease the ground, like we do. The league system out there is different to ours but if the club keeps doing badly then the value will fall. Players will want to leave, revenue will drop, assets will be devalued.
One last thing, your point about inflation, it doesn't matter how hgh inflation is, a club can still lose value, a relegation, selling players, revenue streams dropping and something you seem to have forgotten, even if you aren't relegated, of you pay 10 million for a player and he is a complete flop, will anybody pay 10 million to take him off your hands, what do you think Yates' value is today?
Now, sweating assets
‘sweating’ assets the process of increasing the profits generated from a company's ASSETS where the RETURN ON CAPITAL EMPLOYED is inadequate. This could involve increasing selling prices of products; reducing unit production and selling costs; increasing sales volumes using present assets; or reducing the FIXED ASSETS and CURRENT ASSETS employed to achieve the present sales volume. Sweating assets is often a strategy employed after a company has been taken over.
Now how rich are Kaplan and Levein, can they continue to lose tens of millions per year? |
I keep things simple and decline to get tied up in fog.
If you issue £2m worth of new shares the club is worth £2m if the clubs "nortional share price" stays the same. Morris does not lose money because there has been new investment. If the investment is used well it is to his benefit. If it is wasted it is not.
Inflation is very simple and nothing to do with "costs". It is simply the increase in the cost of something and this includes football clubs, If Swansea was in the Premier league the Trusts shares would be worth at least what the missed out on in 2016. Say £200m (10% of £200m is £20m. This is the same as 20% of £100m). Inflation keeping up with the effects of dilution.
Match funding does prevent dilution. If Morris owns 20% of the club he must find 20% of the new shares to maintain his 20%. The US people are investing money by issuing new shares. Levein and co part own Audi Field having shared construction costs. They lease the rest of the District. They then can be the major beneficiary from Audi Sponsorship which I understand Levein arranged.
Swansea are endeavouring to avoid massive debts. The value of the club is based on performance infrastructure and player roster. The cheapest team in the premier league Burnley was sold for £200m 2 years ago using a loan from the Dell corporation at 9% interest payable by the club.
'Sweating the assets' is what it says and used by Us people . Creating wealth by working hard. It does not need a formal definition of a forum like this. I believe Yates and other poor performers need to get to work and graft to retain their transfer value.
Perhaps the the unwanted three just do not sweat enough and need to go . (Kuharevych, Nathan An On and Pedersen). Perhaps they are not sufficiently skilled. Who knows? ,
The LLC is continue to invest buying shares at low prices. They will make a big profit if the club returns to the PL and they can sell club shares then. The Trust will get the value they missed out on in 2016 and will hopefully be "on the ball" this time. In 20 years time the 5% protected shares w could be worth a lot. They need o go to Bayern Munchen or Germany to find out how their fans invest their cash. | |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| another 2 million invested on 06:37 - Mar 25 with 1262 views | Whiterockin |
| another 2 million invested on 23:18 - Mar 24 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Audi Field is jointly owned by DC United and Washington District. It has excellent connections. DC put $150m into thecontrction costs. |
DC United still pay a nominal fee for the lease $1 a year with the clauses in place to protect Washington from any misdemeanours by the football club. They may jointly own the stadium but area it is built on the lease runs until 2038, this is where the clauses are inserted. [Post edited 25 Mar 6:56]
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| another 2 million invested on 20:51 - Mar 25 with 1140 views | SullutaCreturned |
| another 2 million invested on 23:53 - Mar 24 by ReslovenSwan1 |
I keep things simple and decline to get tied up in fog.
If you issue £2m worth of new shares the club is worth £2m if the clubs "nortional share price" stays the same. Morris does not lose money because there has been new investment. If the investment is used well it is to his benefit. If it is wasted it is not.
Inflation is very simple and nothing to do with "costs". It is simply the increase in the cost of something and this includes football clubs, If Swansea was in the Premier league the Trusts shares would be worth at least what the missed out on in 2016. Say £200m (10% of £200m is £20m. This is the same as 20% of £100m). Inflation keeping up with the effects of dilution.
Match funding does prevent dilution. If Morris owns 20% of the club he must find 20% of the new shares to maintain his 20%. The US people are investing money by issuing new shares. Levein and co part own Audi Field having shared construction costs. They lease the rest of the District. They then can be the major beneficiary from Audi Sponsorship which I understand Levein arranged.
Swansea are endeavouring to avoid massive debts. The value of the club is based on performance infrastructure and player roster. The cheapest team in the premier league Burnley was sold for £200m 2 years ago using a loan from the Dell corporation at 9% interest payable by the club.
'Sweating the assets' is what it says and used by Us people . Creating wealth by working hard. It does not need a formal definition of a forum like this. I believe Yates and other poor performers need to get to work and graft to retain their transfer value.
Perhaps the the unwanted three just do not sweat enough and need to go . (Kuharevych, Nathan An On and Pedersen). Perhaps they are not sufficiently skilled. Who knows? ,
The LLC is continue to invest buying shares at low prices. They will make a big profit if the club returns to the PL and they can sell club shares then. The Trust will get the value they missed out on in 2016 and will hopefully be "on the ball" this time. In 20 years time the 5% protected shares w could be worth a lot. They need o go to Bayern Munchen or Germany to find out how their fans invest their cash. |
Your posts are nothing but fog. I'm not going through it all again
The player is called Tjoe A on I believe, you constantly get it wrong, so much so I believe it is on purpose.
When you use a word it is fairly important to know its meaning, if you are wrong it should be pointed out. I have been proven wrong plenty f times. I can accept it and move on, when there is no doubt. You are a different kettle of fish. | | | |
| another 2 million invested on 21:02 - Mar 25 with 1125 views | Dr_Winston |
I shouldn't be, but remain continually astounded that anyone bothers to engage with Reslovin' on this subject. He's either a moron or a troll. In both cases he's not worth the time or effort. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| another 2 million invested on 23:47 - Mar 25 with 1066 views | DJack |
| another 2 million invested on 21:02 - Mar 25 by Dr_Winston |
I shouldn't be, but remain continually astounded that anyone bothers to engage with Reslovin' on this subject. He's either a moron or a troll. In both cases he's not worth the time or effort. |
"He's either a moron or a troll. "
Why not both? |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| another 2 million invested on 01:17 - Mar 26 with 1056 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| another 2 million invested on 21:02 - Mar 25 by Dr_Winston |
I shouldn't be, but remain continually astounded that anyone bothers to engage with Reslovin' on this subject. He's either a moron or a troll. In both cases he's not worth the time or effort. |
Why not engage in debate instead of puerile name calling?. I encourage people to do their own research and and learn something like I have learned. They are welcome to correct me if wrong. There is a lot to learn. This post has infomed a lot of people about the wealth of the people in the LLC. Such as the valuation of DCU who own the stadium etc. I have pointed out why Arabs might interested in buying it.
Some check my claims and do research other like you are astounded people research. Long standing "Forum sages" like you do not need research as you know it all already. Plenty of those about the place. We all know at least one down the boozer. [Post edited 26 Mar 1:18]
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| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| another 2 million invested on 06:11 - Mar 26 with 1037 views | KeithHaynes |
Regards abuse. Please remember it isn’t welcome here between two differing points of view.
Thank you. |  |
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| another 2 million invested on 08:12 - Mar 26 with 968 views | Dr_Winston |
| another 2 million invested on 23:47 - Mar 25 by DJack |
"He's either a moron or a troll. "
Why not both? |
Fair point. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| another 2 million invested on 12:53 - Mar 26 with 931 views | JumpingJackFlash |
Of course Morris loses money if his shareholding is diluted. It's not even up for debate. | | | |
| another 2 million invested on 14:42 - Mar 26 with 882 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| another 2 million invested on 12:53 - Mar 26 by JumpingJackFlash |
Of course Morris loses money if his shareholding is diluted. It's not even up for debate. |
Yes it is up for debate. You and others do not understand a inflation and do not understand dilution. If Morris is diluted 10% and the club valuation increase 10% then he loses nothing. EPL and EFL are currently in talks for better funding of the EFL. One reason the clubs valuation could inflate. | |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| another 2 million invested on 14:55 - Mar 26 with 867 views | Whiterockin |
| another 2 million invested on 14:42 - Mar 26 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Yes it is up for debate. You and others do not understand a inflation and do not understand dilution. If Morris is diluted 10% and the club valuation increase 10% then he loses nothing. EPL and EFL are currently in talks for better funding of the EFL. One reason the clubs valuation could inflate. |
I would say that everyone understands it and you are the only one who doesn't. | | | |
| another 2 million invested on 15:08 - Mar 26 with 843 views | JumpingJackFlash |
| another 2 million invested on 14:42 - Mar 26 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Yes it is up for debate. You and others do not understand a inflation and do not understand dilution. If Morris is diluted 10% and the club valuation increase 10% then he loses nothing. EPL and EFL are currently in talks for better funding of the EFL. One reason the clubs valuation could inflate. |
You don’t understand simple mathematics. Morris owns a smaller percentage of the company than before the dilution whatever the value is. Even with your example he loses the value of the dilution compared to what he would have had if the dilution had not taken place.
Realistically, the continual need for owners to put in a couple of million here, ten million there, suggests that the current business model is unsustainable. The value of the company is only going one way at the moment and the continued need for the owners to “invest” to stand still at best is a red flag to anyone giving thought to buying the club. The “investors” offset some of their potential losses by taking a larger share of the company which, in turn, dilutes the share of those not “investing”. Those not investing are the real losers here. | | | |
| another 2 million invested on 23:26 - Mar 26 with 754 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| another 2 million invested on 15:08 - Mar 26 by JumpingJackFlash |
You don’t understand simple mathematics. Morris owns a smaller percentage of the company than before the dilution whatever the value is. Even with your example he loses the value of the dilution compared to what he would have had if the dilution had not taken place.
Realistically, the continual need for owners to put in a couple of million here, ten million there, suggests that the current business model is unsustainable. The value of the company is only going one way at the moment and the continued need for the owners to “invest” to stand still at best is a red flag to anyone giving thought to buying the club. The “investors” offset some of their potential losses by taking a larger share of the company which, in turn, dilutes the share of those not “investing”. Those not investing are the real losers here. |
If the club is valued at £40m and £2m is added then the value is £42m. That is basic maths. This is notionally how it works. The value of shares does not drop if new shares are issued. | |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| another 2 million invested on 07:58 - Mar 27 with 701 views | Whiterockin |
| another 2 million invested on 23:26 - Mar 26 by ReslovenSwan1 |
If the club is valued at £40m and £2m is added then the value is £42m. That is basic maths. This is notionally how it works. The value of shares does not drop if new shares are issued. |
You say you learn from reading, hopefully you will learn from reading this about investment and share dilution. It will explain to you how share dilution drops the value of shares. If it doesn't clearly you don't want to learn, refuse to accept facts when they are presented to you again and you are on a wind up and best ignored by everyone.
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/equities/dilution/ | | | |
| another 2 million invested on 08:09 - Mar 27 with 690 views | Gwyn737 |
| another 2 million invested on 23:26 - Mar 26 by ReslovenSwan1 |
If the club is valued at £40m and £2m is added then the value is £42m. That is basic maths. This is notionally how it works. The value of shares does not drop if new shares are issued. |
Lets say for the £40m there are 40 shares at £1m each.
Someone owns 1 share so has £1m in the the pot.
This is an extreme way of looking at it but if a £2m investment was made but 10 more shares were issued, £42m divided by 50 shares means the investment is now worth £840,000 as opposed to £1m.
Isn't this why it's so imprtant the trust's shares cannot be diluted?
Not my area of expertise so happy to be corrected.
[Post edited 27 Mar 15:50]
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| another 2 million invested on 09:14 - Mar 27 with 656 views | vetchonian |
| another 2 million invested on 15:08 - Mar 26 by JumpingJackFlash |
You don’t understand simple mathematics. Morris owns a smaller percentage of the company than before the dilution whatever the value is. Even with your example he loses the value of the dilution compared to what he would have had if the dilution had not taken place.
Realistically, the continual need for owners to put in a couple of million here, ten million there, suggests that the current business model is unsustainable. The value of the company is only going one way at the moment and the continued need for the owners to “invest” to stand still at best is a red flag to anyone giving thought to buying the club. The “investors” offset some of their potential losses by taking a larger share of the company which, in turn, dilutes the share of those not “investing”. Those not investing are the real losers here. |
there lies the.point and the rationale behind the sale in 2016 the club costs more money to run than it generates....it was the same in the latter days of the PL and the Championship is an expensive place.
Thankfully the monies put in are not loans so we are not getting saddled with debt.
The Trust get critiscised by Resolven but they are not in a position to invest yes he goes on about The then fans directors statement about their shares never being available to sell but that came after due diligence was carried out on the Moores consortium not considered as fit buyers it was just after that information was "leaked" discrediting the supporter director
The discussio shouldn't be about dilution inflation or the Trust it should be about the long term sustainability of the club [Post edited 27 Mar 9:25]
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| another 2 million invested on 09:25 - Mar 27 with 646 views | Whiterockin |
| another 2 million invested on 09:14 - Mar 27 by vetchonian |
there lies the.point and the rationale behind the sale in 2016 the club costs more money to run than it generates....it was the same in the latter days of the PL and the Championship is an expensive place.
Thankfully the monies put in are not loans so we are not getting saddled with debt.
The Trust get critiscised by Resolven but they are not in a position to invest yes he goes on about The then fans directors statement about their shares never being available to sell but that came after due diligence was carried out on the Moores consortium not considered as fit buyers it was just after that information was "leaked" discrediting the supporter director
The discussio shouldn't be about dilution inflation or the Trust it should be about the long term sustainability of the club [Post edited 27 Mar 9:25]
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Good points. My concern is how does this affect us in connection with EFL rules and financial fair play, are we close to the limits. Obviously we are losing a lot of money because of the investment required, but how much are these losses year on year. | | | |
| another 2 million invested on 15:48 - Mar 27 with 559 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| another 2 million invested on 20:51 - Mar 25 by SullutaCreturned |
Your posts are nothing but fog. I'm not going through it all again
The player is called Tjoe A on I believe, you constantly get it wrong, so much so I believe it is on purpose.
When you use a word it is fairly important to know its meaning, if you are wrong it should be pointed out. I have been proven wrong plenty f times. I can accept it and move on, when there is no doubt. You are a different kettle of fish. |
Too right I am different.The one and only fan calling for the Trust to sell as many shares as possible in 2015 -2016. Cash in and invest.Fans work in gangs where unity is more important than common sense. Quite a few agree with me but will not break cover. | |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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