| Lucy Letby Guilty 13:16 - Aug 18 with 10573 views | onehunglow |
And refuses to attend court for the verdict .
Another example of knack of justice
This piece of evil should never come out
Her
Defence” was sickening
Result…
The NHS will be sued for billions and rightly so. [Post edited 18 Aug 2023 13:31]
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| Lucy Letby Guilty on 07:44 - Feb 5 with 814 views | controversial_jack |
| Lucy Letby Guilty on 22:18 - May 24 by Whiterockin |
You have to accept that there are bad police officers as there are in all walks of life. These officers often make the headlines and sour the name of all. Its just the way life is, there is no profession without its bad apples. [Post edited 24 May 2024 22:20]
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For every bad officer there is another who will back them up. We never hear of officers intervening to stop a bad arrest or an assault. | | | |
| Lucy Letby Guilty on 08:03 - Feb 5 with 774 views | AnotherJohn |
This is a very difficult case. On the one hand, many of the issues were explored in two trials and a couple of appeals. Some commentators have been saying that the convictions were based on multiple grounds, and not just the cause-of-death evidence discussed in the press conference given on Tuesday by the independent panel of specialist doctors. However, what worries me is that experts in several domains are now raising doubts. It is not just the evidence from the medical experts, but expert statisticians are casting doubt on the evidence about the correspondence of Letby's rotas with adverse incidents (something also cast in doubt by police notes that have now come to light) , and some psychologists say that it is wrong to interpret Letby's own scribblings as evidence of guilt. In a case like this where all the evidence is circumstantial these multiple controversies are disturbing. I can't help thinking of the Lucia de Berk case where there was a major miscarriage of justice affecting a Dutch paediatric nurse. So it seems right that the case will now be looked at again by the Criminal Cases Review Committee. I do feel sorry for the parents, but they as well as everybody else need to know the truth. If it should turn out that Letby was a scapegoat used to cover up deficiencies in NHS care that would be a matter of huge public concern, and that possibility needs to be investigated. [Post edited 5 Feb 8:08]
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| Lucy Letby Guilty on 09:06 - Feb 5 with 697 views | trampie |
| Lucy Letby Guilty on 08:03 - Feb 5 by AnotherJohn |
This is a very difficult case. On the one hand, many of the issues were explored in two trials and a couple of appeals. Some commentators have been saying that the convictions were based on multiple grounds, and not just the cause-of-death evidence discussed in the press conference given on Tuesday by the independent panel of specialist doctors. However, what worries me is that experts in several domains are now raising doubts. It is not just the evidence from the medical experts, but expert statisticians are casting doubt on the evidence about the correspondence of Letby's rotas with adverse incidents (something also cast in doubt by police notes that have now come to light) , and some psychologists say that it is wrong to interpret Letby's own scribblings as evidence of guilt. In a case like this where all the evidence is circumstantial these multiple controversies are disturbing. I can't help thinking of the Lucia de Berk case where there was a major miscarriage of justice affecting a Dutch paediatric nurse. So it seems right that the case will now be looked at again by the Criminal Cases Review Committee. I do feel sorry for the parents, but they as well as everybody else need to know the truth. If it should turn out that Letby was a scapegoat used to cover up deficiencies in NHS care that would be a matter of huge public concern, and that possibility needs to be investigated. [Post edited 5 Feb 8:08]
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It all comes down to beyond reasonable doubt like the Clydach case - was it beyond reasonable doubt ? a lot of the time it's not who is guilty or not guilty per se when there are no witnesses and no conclusive dna but was it beyond reasonable doubt ?
I pointed out before on the Clydach thread that lots of trials and appeals won by the crown doesn't mean that the case is safe, it can mean the opposite hence the appeals in the first place.
In these cases Clydach/Countess of Chester nobody knows if the convicted is really guilty in reality, they maybe, they may not be.
My guess is one is guilty and one isn't guilty. [Post edited 5 Feb 9:07]
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| Lucy Letby Guilty on 10:31 - Feb 5 with 621 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Lucy Letby Guilty on 08:03 - Feb 5 by AnotherJohn |
This is a very difficult case. On the one hand, many of the issues were explored in two trials and a couple of appeals. Some commentators have been saying that the convictions were based on multiple grounds, and not just the cause-of-death evidence discussed in the press conference given on Tuesday by the independent panel of specialist doctors. However, what worries me is that experts in several domains are now raising doubts. It is not just the evidence from the medical experts, but expert statisticians are casting doubt on the evidence about the correspondence of Letby's rotas with adverse incidents (something also cast in doubt by police notes that have now come to light) , and some psychologists say that it is wrong to interpret Letby's own scribblings as evidence of guilt. In a case like this where all the evidence is circumstantial these multiple controversies are disturbing. I can't help thinking of the Lucia de Berk case where there was a major miscarriage of justice affecting a Dutch paediatric nurse. So it seems right that the case will now be looked at again by the Criminal Cases Review Committee. I do feel sorry for the parents, but they as well as everybody else need to know the truth. If it should turn out that Letby was a scapegoat used to cover up deficiencies in NHS care that would be a matter of huge public concern, and that possibility needs to be investigated. [Post edited 5 Feb 8:08]
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Circumstantial evidence is still evidence and there’s a great weight of it in letbys case. The elephant in the room is that both the prosecution and defence (and letby herself) unanimously agreed that there was definitely a killer on that ward. Insulin doesn’t magically find its way into IV bags. Babies don’t cause catastrophic internal injuries to themselves that are usually only seen in high speed car crashes.
If Letby wasn’t the killer then who was? And why did the attacks move from night shifts to day shifts as letby moves from night shifts to day shifts and stop completely when she was moved off the ward? |  |
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| Lucy Letby Guilty on 13:01 - Feb 5 with 540 views | Gwyn737 |
There an awful lot in this case that needs answering. Those poor parents deserve to know the truth.
Thankfully we don’t have capitol punishment otherwise there’d be no way we’d ever find out. | | | |
| Lucy Letby Guilty on 13:05 - Feb 5 with 533 views | AnotherJohn |
| Lucy Letby Guilty on 10:31 - Feb 5 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Circumstantial evidence is still evidence and there’s a great weight of it in letbys case. The elephant in the room is that both the prosecution and defence (and letby herself) unanimously agreed that there was definitely a killer on that ward. Insulin doesn’t magically find its way into IV bags. Babies don’t cause catastrophic internal injuries to themselves that are usually only seen in high speed car crashes.
If Letby wasn’t the killer then who was? And why did the attacks move from night shifts to day shifts as letby moves from night shifts to day shifts and stop completely when she was moved off the ward? |
I did notice that you made this point in your earlier post, and I acknowledge that I do not have the expertise to know if the facts are as described. However, the panel of medical experts reviewed each death or adverse event in detail, and from their general statement it is evident that they contest that claim. When (and if) their full report is published we will be able to see what they say in respect of those cases and whether the argument they advance is compelling. Dr Dewi Evans, the key prosecution expert witness, is not qualified in the relevant specialist fields to the same level as the medical professionals in the independent expert panel. Whether Letby herself thought insulin had been put in the drips is neither here nor there (unless she confessed to doing it herself) as she is not a highly-qualified expert in medical science. When it comes to the previous defence teams in the various cases, the argument is that they did not organise the effective presentation of key evidence.
As to whether there is a great weight of circumstantial evidence, what do you have in mind beyond the three main types of evidence that I mentioned and which are all being contested by specialists in the respective fields? I would not be concerned if the arguments were in just one area, but I do find it disturbing that there seem to be doubts in all the main areas.
The expert panel deny that there was a killer. Analysis of activity in the special care baby unit at the Countess of Chester hospital suggests that the period where the deaths occurred was one where a greater number of complex cases was treated and where there were documented problems in staffing. I don't know whether you heard what Dr Shoo Lee had to say yesterday, but it was basically that all the deaths could be accounted for because the babies were either very ill or there were shortcomings in the quality of care they received.
So overall I still have an open mind and would like some of the evidence reviewed in greater depth with proper expert witness input. [Post edited 5 Feb 15:39]
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| Lucy Letby Guilty on 16:04 - Feb 5 with 434 views | trampie |
It looks like the quality of care at that hospital is found wanting judging by the experts that looked at the cases, it's a concern that some of these border hospitals in England are so poor when Welsh infants might get treated there.
I remember the Woodward case, a British expert saying why it was an existing injury and the Yanks saying who are you ? our eminent doctors say different, he told them that he actually invented the machine that created the images they were looking at, they had no answer only to say ' who do you think you are coming over here talking down to us' etc, they still found her guilty mind.
With lots of those doctors a few years later changing their mind and now having a different opinion.
People get wrapped up in the emotion of cases, if there is little in the way of witnesses, dna etc then juries and the like need to be sure in their minds that the person is 'beyond reasonable doubt guilty' which in my view should be 85% to 90% certain in their minds which is a high bar (10 out of 12 as a percentage = over 83%, I think sometimes judges accept 10 out of 12 hence my figure).
The three cases Woodward, Morris, Letby were all found guilty but should they have been found guilty beyond reasonable doubt is very much a matter of debate ?, as regards were they really guilty only they and God know that (and im not particularly religious but that is the best way of puting it) out of the three I would have said Letby looks the most guilty but that one has now also become a lot more debatable after these experts findings. | |
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| Lucy Letby Guilty on 20:51 - Feb 5 with 355 views | Dr_Winston |
Lot of people previously desperate to see Letby executed who have gone very quiet. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Lucy Letby Guilty on 21:55 - Feb 5 with 318 views | Dr_Winston |
| Lucy Letby Guilty on 10:31 - Feb 5 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Circumstantial evidence is still evidence and there’s a great weight of it in letbys case. The elephant in the room is that both the prosecution and defence (and letby herself) unanimously agreed that there was definitely a killer on that ward. Insulin doesn’t magically find its way into IV bags. Babies don’t cause catastrophic internal injuries to themselves that are usually only seen in high speed car crashes.
If Letby wasn’t the killer then who was? And why did the attacks move from night shifts to day shifts as letby moves from night shifts to day shifts and stop completely when she was moved off the ward? |
"The panel also cast doubt on the supposed insulin poisonings, which were the foundation of the prosecution case. Jurors in Letby’s original trial were told that the insulin and c-peptide levels of two infants meant they must have been deliberately injected with insulin. Letby’s original legal team did not contest that claim, yet the jury was told that Letby was the only person who could have poisoned both babies.
A report by Prof Geoff Chase of the University of Canterbury in New Zealand, however, concluded that the two babies’ insulin and c-peptide levels were “typical” for babies of their age and that the tests the prosecution used were “not of forensic quality”. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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