| Paradise Papers on 10:54 - Nov 6 with 2376 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Paradise Papers on 10:20 - Nov 6 by Toast_R |
Well he's kind of burnt his bridges on the tuition fees thing with the obligatory post election making out he never actually said that he'd do this etc... so I do wonder if that means the youth vote won't be as strong in another election. Factor in the lack of their once reliable Scottish vote too, it's still going to be very difficult for Corbyn to win a majority. |
No he always said he’d remove tuition fees, he was accused of promising to remove ALL existing student debt, which he didn’t promise at all..
As for Scottish Labour, they are about to elect Richard Leonard who is pro Corbyn and has a proud Union history and championing the left. Polls suggest that Labour are gaining momentum up there.
The main obstacle to Corbyn winning a majority is the electoral system. People forget that only 6,000 votes in the right places would have won Labour a majority last time round. |  | |  |
| Paradise Papers on 11:03 - Nov 6 with 2362 views | stevec |
| Paradise Papers on 10:40 - Nov 6 by hubble |
Okay Mr H - I'm going to bite on this and add my tuppence worth.
I believe we - or at least a significant and increasing number - *have* learnt, and *are* taking positive action. I know I'm risking the ire of many on here, but here goes: the current system (top-down governance, global elites, banking cabals etc.) is, as far as I can see, teetering on the brink of collapse. Especially the financial system. For most of our recent history, there was no viable alternative for people to get involved with, therefore no viable means for people to effect lasting, meaningful change. I believe the internet and the technology that underpins this has changed the game. In fact it's a game-changer so profound that in future times I think people will look back and talk about the two ages of humankind: BI - Before Internet and AI - After Internet.
One of the biggest factors in the downfall of the old (some might say current) system is the rise of peer-to-peer crypto-currencies. I have been following this closely since the inception of bitcoin (btc) in 2009 and I bought my btc not long after that. Now I accept that there is a lack of sensible information about crypto-currencies in our mainstream media - so I understand that plenty of people still don't really understand it, how it works and what it represents - however, a very significant (and increasing day by day) number do. And what it represents, in a nutshell, is the downfall of the current financial system. I believe this is a very positive thing. Fiat currencies, fractional reserve banking, quantitative easing, inflation, debt slavery, all the dark arts of the private banking cartel that more or less dictate many governments' policies, are not beneficial to the vast majority of people on this planet. I don't think anyone would argue that the loosening of banking regulations that led to things like the 2008 crash have not been exactly helpful in creating a stable and peaceful world.
As far as I'm concerned, the current financial system is criminal. It represents larceny on a grand scale. And the tax-avoidance of the super-rich is but one aspect of this. It is impossible to create any sort of meaningful representative democracy when such a system dominates. But when you say "it never fails and we never learn" I disagree Mr H. I think it is failing and I think we have learnt. And it is the power of the internet that's making all this possible. I genuinely think that within 20 years - maybe less - the current financial system, as it stands - will have been swept away.
Perhaps one of the biggest problems in regard to creating stable, peaceful, representative democracies under the current financial/governmental system is the complete lack of transparency. Banks can create money out of nothing. Tax money is siphoned from the masses to the ruling elite, with little - until now - genuine scrutiny of how it operates. Huge corporations like Goldman Sachs directly interfere in the running of states . Look, for example, at the number of Goldman Sachs alumni embedded within the EU, from the head of the European Central Bank (ECB) Mario Draghi down. Cast your eye over this list of alumni to see where they're placed right now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_employees_of_Goldman_Sachs
What crypto-currencies offer is a much fairer system for trading; transparent, not privately-owned, not counterfeit-able, anti-inflationary, easily distributable. The technology that crypto-currencies run on, like the blockchain, offer far more than just a framework for distribution though. They offer a transparent public ledger that cannot be corrupted. They offer a trading mechanism that is far more secure than our current banking system. And they are becoming increasingly popular in daily use. Bitcoin is now legal tender in Japan. There are bitcoin debit cards and ATMs. This is not going to go away.
If you believe the numerous articles claiming btc is a bubble I'm keen to suggest that it really isn't a bubble, a scam, a ponzi or pyramid scheme, or any of the other charges levelled against it; 8 years is a long time for a bubble to last, for starters. It's also very interesting to note the number of times JP Morgan Chase head Jamie Dimon has called bitcoin a bubble. Not least when you discover that a Swedish company filed a complaint with a Swedish regulator against JPMorgan’s chief executive for calling bitcoin a “fraud” after learning that JPMorgan began buying into a bitcoin tracker fund shortly after Dimon made his comments. And then you discover that In 2013 JP Morgan Chase was denied a patent for a Bitcoin clone over 175 times. And that JP Morgan Chase has been charged with 48 different violations of banking and securities fraud. ($28,675,456,874.00 is the total they’ve paid out just in the past 7 years in slap-on-the-wrist fines by politicians who’s coffers they’ve filled with money.) Yet the mainstream media continues to parrot what this guy says. Think about it.
Anyway, I've probably proselytised enough. My main point is that contrary to what you said Mr H, I believe the times they are a-changing. [Post edited 6 Nov 2017 10:45]
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Fascinated by what you say, sadly I know absolutely nothing about crypto currencies.
The problem I see with bitcoins is this.. how does your Mum pay for a loaf of bread at the local bakers?
Not taking the piss, I'm just curious of the mechanics. |  | | |
| Paradise Papers on 11:23 - Nov 6 with 2328 views | WatfordR |
So what's the difference between the tax avoidance discussed in the Paradise Papers and the tax avoidance here?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40120027
I'm tempted to think it might have something to do with who is doing the avoiding. |  | | |
| Paradise Papers on 11:32 - Nov 6 with 2318 views | hubble |
| Paradise Papers on 11:03 - Nov 6 by stevec |
Fascinated by what you say, sadly I know absolutely nothing about crypto currencies.
The problem I see with bitcoins is this.. how does your Mum pay for a loaf of bread at the local bakers?
Not taking the piss, I'm just curious of the mechanics. |
That's a good question Steve. A simple answer would be that she'd have to shop in the right places. Because there are an increasing number of shops and businesses that do take bitcoin, from local and small like the Pembury Tavern pub in London, right up to companies like Subway, Microsoft and Expedia.
Of course, the whole crypto-currency thing is still in its infancy, but the number of people who use and accept it is growing all the time. A friend of mine actually has a bitcoin credit card that converts at the current rate to the local currency of the country you're in. So in short, your mum might find it a bit hard right now, unless she was in Shoreditch or Hackney perhaps and possessed a smartphone.... but not impossible.
In the not too distant future I think it will be radically different. Bitcoin - or something like it - could well become the global trading currency. States like China and Russia clearly think so, since they're investing heavily in their own versions. And other states, like Venezuela for example, see bitcoin as a way out of their current financial situation (i.e. they get away from the control of the banking cabals). |  |
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| Paradise Papers on 12:16 - Nov 6 with 2271 views | essextaxiboy |
| Paradise Papers on 10:54 - Nov 6 by BazzaInTheLoft |
No he always said he’d remove tuition fees, he was accused of promising to remove ALL existing student debt, which he didn’t promise at all..
As for Scottish Labour, they are about to elect Richard Leonard who is pro Corbyn and has a proud Union history and championing the left. Polls suggest that Labour are gaining momentum up there.
The main obstacle to Corbyn winning a majority is the electoral system. People forget that only 6,000 votes in the right places would have won Labour a majority last time round. |
Corbyn
“And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”
Imran Hussein (Shadow Justice Minister )
“Just this morning Jeremy Corbyn has announced that the tuition fees will be abolished straight away from September if there’s a Labour government, and that we will bring back immediately EMA and also that every existing student will have all their debts wiped off.”
A great inclusive policy that asks 18-22 year olds who are working to use their taxes to keep ex schoolmates who are doing a degree in Beekeeping in Stella and chicken nuggets .
IMO
What link does the Momentum" response app "suggest for that one Baz ?  |  | | |
| Paradise Papers on 12:38 - Nov 6 with 2240 views | stevec |
| Paradise Papers on 11:32 - Nov 6 by hubble |
That's a good question Steve. A simple answer would be that she'd have to shop in the right places. Because there are an increasing number of shops and businesses that do take bitcoin, from local and small like the Pembury Tavern pub in London, right up to companies like Subway, Microsoft and Expedia.
Of course, the whole crypto-currency thing is still in its infancy, but the number of people who use and accept it is growing all the time. A friend of mine actually has a bitcoin credit card that converts at the current rate to the local currency of the country you're in. So in short, your mum might find it a bit hard right now, unless she was in Shoreditch or Hackney perhaps and possessed a smartphone.... but not impossible.
In the not too distant future I think it will be radically different. Bitcoin - or something like it - could well become the global trading currency. States like China and Russia clearly think so, since they're investing heavily in their own versions. And other states, like Venezuela for example, see bitcoin as a way out of their current financial situation (i.e. they get away from the control of the banking cabals). |
Very interesting stuff. I'll have to read more into this.
Suspect as long as the US dollar remains the currency for commodities then unlikely to change things. | | | |
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| Paradise Papers on 13:07 - Nov 6 with 2196 views | TheBlob |
| Paradise Papers on 12:16 - Nov 6 by essextaxiboy |
Corbyn
“And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”
Imran Hussein (Shadow Justice Minister )
“Just this morning Jeremy Corbyn has announced that the tuition fees will be abolished straight away from September if there’s a Labour government, and that we will bring back immediately EMA and also that every existing student will have all their debts wiped off.”
A great inclusive policy that asks 18-22 year olds who are working to use their taxes to keep ex schoolmates who are doing a degree in Beekeeping in Stella and chicken nuggets .
IMO
What link does the Momentum" response app "suggest for that one Baz ? |
Hell yeah,I'd vote for that twice as well. |  |
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| Paradise Papers on 13:22 - Nov 6 with 2158 views | CiderwithRsie |
Bazza: you're right, he didn't promise to abolish all student debt, but he was vague (deliberately so IMO) about it and certainly didn't do anything to discourage that when social media was full if ex-students cheering about it.
It isn't a hanging offence by normal political standards IMO but it is common with a load of the Labour manifesto -
"Yay! We're going to abolish the bedroom tax! (PS don't ask about all the Tax Credit cuts, they're all still happening. OK, yes the Lib Dems say they'll roll those back, and yes, that's actually a hell of a lot more money on benefits for the poor, but, well, actually the same amount of money that would cost has just gone on abolishing student fees so I'm afraid that's just tough)
"Yay! We'll have a Brexit for jobs! (PS ferchrissakes don't ask what it means. No, its not just as meaningless as Brexit means Brexit, no, not at all. Take that Farage, you can stuff your hard Brexit up your backside. What's that? You voted Leave. Oh, yeah, we're still going to leave, I didn't mean that. Oh no, we're not having Free Movement of EU workers, don't worry. Listen, can't we talk about how the Tories are all fascists instead?"
Don't get me wrong, that's how you have to play politics. But the tuition fees thing should be a warning to you - look hard at the small print of just what you are being offered while you are busy singing "oh Jeremy Corbyn" |  | | |
| Paradise Papers on 13:28 - Nov 6 with 2147 views | CiderwithRsie |
Benny: I don't know what being thrown out of court has to do with it, no-one talked about going to court. The whole point I was making is that "you couldn't nail them in court" is a red herring; a load of this off-shore stuff with companies owning other companies owning other companies owning other companies is to make damn sure no-one gets near a court.
Not being able to get people into court is the big issue. No-one could get Al Capone to court until he messed up his tax returns, because he made damn sure you couldn't. | | | |
| Paradise Papers on 13:43 - Nov 6 with 2128 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Paradise Papers on 13:22 - Nov 6 by CiderwithRsie |
Bazza: you're right, he didn't promise to abolish all student debt, but he was vague (deliberately so IMO) about it and certainly didn't do anything to discourage that when social media was full if ex-students cheering about it.
It isn't a hanging offence by normal political standards IMO but it is common with a load of the Labour manifesto -
"Yay! We're going to abolish the bedroom tax! (PS don't ask about all the Tax Credit cuts, they're all still happening. OK, yes the Lib Dems say they'll roll those back, and yes, that's actually a hell of a lot more money on benefits for the poor, but, well, actually the same amount of money that would cost has just gone on abolishing student fees so I'm afraid that's just tough)
"Yay! We'll have a Brexit for jobs! (PS ferchrissakes don't ask what it means. No, its not just as meaningless as Brexit means Brexit, no, not at all. Take that Farage, you can stuff your hard Brexit up your backside. What's that? You voted Leave. Oh, yeah, we're still going to leave, I didn't mean that. Oh no, we're not having Free Movement of EU workers, don't worry. Listen, can't we talk about how the Tories are all fascists instead?"
Don't get me wrong, that's how you have to play politics. But the tuition fees thing should be a warning to you - look hard at the small print of just what you are being offered while you are busy singing "oh Jeremy Corbyn" |
That's not the manifesto I recognise. It seemed very clear to me and fully costed. Would love to go into it but I don't have the time.
BREXIT is obviously difficult for the Labour party. I can't deny that. It's difficult to produce clear policy on a situational first , and in such a toxic atmosphere.
Labour are split between middle class conscience voters in Oxford and Norwich who mostly voted remain, and angry working class voters in Crewe who voted out. You'll never please both and Labour will piss someone of whichever way they stand.
The EU are talking to Labour so they obviously know which way the wind is blowing.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-negotiators-talks-labour
I know what i'm being offered. I've attended many policy forums.
Never chanted that bollocks by the way. I'm in my thirties now so would feel ridiculous if I did.
You have to vote the way you feel, and I know no one has ever changed their minds on LfW but presuming most of us aren't on the Times rich list Labour is surely the best option? Lib Dems are fine but have less seats than a Fulham minibus and would need a 900% swing to really be relevant at all. [Post edited 6 Nov 2017 13:45]
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| Paradise Papers on 14:06 - Nov 6 with 2100 views | CiderwithRsie |
Bazza: sorry, don't want to go on too long, but look at the Institute for Fiscal Studies assessments of the manifestos. They are generally recognised as pretty impartial and competent. They are damning about Labour's costings (and the Tories too) and they are quite clear that the manifesto offering the most for the poor was the LDs.
I completely take your point about the LDs but mine is that most people would think that Corbyn is the most left-wing leader in years who, rightly or wrongly, was promising a massive shift from the rich to the poor. If you're left, you liked it, if you're right, you hated it. But whether or not you thought it was worth voting LD (or trusted them), I bet you didn't think that they were promising more to the poor than Labour. But they were. So if you "don't recognise" that about Labour's manifesto it just proves my point - it did a bloody good job on you and voters like you. You're still not going to vote Tory and you still probably aren't going to vote LD (or Green) for the reasons you give. Fair enough. I'm just saying that for your own protection, don't get your hopes up too much.
I don't for a minute think anyone can say Labour's Brexit manifesto was anything but a massive fudge and eventually they will have to deal with it, but right now they don't have to, they can just watch the Tories swing in the breeze until they bleed to death. It's actually a very smart strategy. | | | |
| Paradise Papers on 14:08 - Nov 6 with 2098 views | R_from_afar |
This is a massive issue, seriously massive. But how big is massive? Quite big, as it turns out: 8 percent of all the money in the world! 
Think about that for a moment: 8% of all the world's wedge. Hells bells.
Lovable, cool Apple that has most people cooing and queuing round the block for the latest "you'll never need to buy another" handset every two years or so has quietly squirreled away $115bn as part of this.
https://boingboing.net/2016/01/01/tax-havens-hold-7-6-trillion.html
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Paradise Papers on 14:15 - Nov 6 with 2091 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Paradise Papers on 14:06 - Nov 6 by CiderwithRsie |
Bazza: sorry, don't want to go on too long, but look at the Institute for Fiscal Studies assessments of the manifestos. They are generally recognised as pretty impartial and competent. They are damning about Labour's costings (and the Tories too) and they are quite clear that the manifesto offering the most for the poor was the LDs.
I completely take your point about the LDs but mine is that most people would think that Corbyn is the most left-wing leader in years who, rightly or wrongly, was promising a massive shift from the rich to the poor. If you're left, you liked it, if you're right, you hated it. But whether or not you thought it was worth voting LD (or trusted them), I bet you didn't think that they were promising more to the poor than Labour. But they were. So if you "don't recognise" that about Labour's manifesto it just proves my point - it did a bloody good job on you and voters like you. You're still not going to vote Tory and you still probably aren't going to vote LD (or Green) for the reasons you give. Fair enough. I'm just saying that for your own protection, don't get your hopes up too much.
I don't for a minute think anyone can say Labour's Brexit manifesto was anything but a massive fudge and eventually they will have to deal with it, but right now they don't have to, they can just watch the Tories swing in the breeze until they bleed to death. It's actually a very smart strategy. |
Don't you worry mate, I won't get my hopes up too much. Thanks for looking out for me though : ) | | | |
| Paradise Papers on 14:26 - Nov 6 with 2077 views | Brightonhoop |
Amazed also, naive maybe, that BBC 'stars' are allowed to earn Tax Free via shell companies off shore whilst every household is taxed for the Licence Fee with the threat of hefty fines and prison for non-payment.
We were promised this would not happen again after the Jimmy Carr affair.
BBC really need all Public funding to be removed pronto. Tax dodging parasites. The plug needs to be pulled on them once and for all. |  | | |
| Paradise Papers on 15:01 - Nov 6 with 2050 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Paradise Papers on 14:26 - Nov 6 by Brightonhoop |
Amazed also, naive maybe, that BBC 'stars' are allowed to earn Tax Free via shell companies off shore whilst every household is taxed for the Licence Fee with the threat of hefty fines and prison for non-payment.
We were promised this would not happen again after the Jimmy Carr affair.
BBC really need all Public funding to be removed pronto. Tax dodging parasites. The plug needs to be pulled on them once and for all. |
Can you explain this one mate? Genuinely not sure why this is the BBC's fault? |  |
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| Paradise Papers on 15:25 - Nov 6 with 2031 views | kensalriser |
| Paradise Papers on 14:26 - Nov 6 by Brightonhoop |
Amazed also, naive maybe, that BBC 'stars' are allowed to earn Tax Free via shell companies off shore whilst every household is taxed for the Licence Fee with the threat of hefty fines and prison for non-payment.
We were promised this would not happen again after the Jimmy Carr affair.
BBC really need all Public funding to be removed pronto. Tax dodging parasites. The plug needs to be pulled on them once and for all. |
Bit bonkers even for you mate! The BBC is the least of anyone's problems. |  |
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| Paradise Papers on 15:56 - Nov 6 with 2004 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
This SNP councillor sums it up better than anyone else i've seen:
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| Paradise Papers on 16:20 - Nov 6 with 1992 views | qpr1976 |
| Paradise Papers on 10:20 - Nov 6 by Toast_R |
Well he's kind of burnt his bridges on the tuition fees thing with the obligatory post election making out he never actually said that he'd do this etc... so I do wonder if that means the youth vote won't be as strong in another election. Factor in the lack of their once reliable Scottish vote too, it's still going to be very difficult for Corbyn to win a majority. |
That would be fromm the same Labour party that brought in Tuition fees ?
And from the man proven to be a liar when sitting on the floor of a train to suggest there were no available seats when in fact there were plenty !
Fcuk ‘em all. | | | |
| Paradise Papers on 16:32 - Nov 6 with 1980 views | TacticalR |
At the time of the Panama Papers, Tony Norfield author of The City: London and the Global Power of Finance pointed out that the Cayman Islands were much more significant than Panama.
He also pointed out that these islands are an integral part of the functioning of the capitalist system.
Tony Norfield: 'It's true, there's a lot of tax dodging and, of course, governments have done very little about it because that's part of the way the ruling class hides its income! But I think there are two things to point out with the Panama Papers. One is that Panama itself is really, as I call it somewhere else, a "pimple on capitalism's backside". It's not that important even if you're talking about offshore accounts. Little islands off the UK — especially Jersey and Guernsey — are much bigger than Panama is in terms of banking. The Cayman Islands is the biggest.
The second is that these places have "God Save The Queen" as their national anthem. And, as we all know, it's not a very catchy tune. So why are they singing it? As you might suspect, it's got something to do with the linkages to the British state: they're British Overseas Territories.
I also give an example in the book of how Britain borrows a lot of money from its own local tax havens — Jersey, Guernsey etc. — and sends money to the Cayman Islands which then gets invested in the US bond markets and securities markets. This is part of the financial infrastructure that is set up by the major powers. So rather than just being a place for billionaires who don't want to pay their taxes, these centres play a key role in the international flow of funds in the global system.'
See this thread for a graph showing the importance of the Cayman Islands relative to other offshore centres:
MP's debate by stowmarketrange 9 Feb 2017 16:10I just turned on the BBC parliament channel to see the debate over the FA governing our game.How many of the 650 MP's are actually there in session?A grand total of 20.
I know that its only about the English FA,but 20.
[Post edited 6 Nov 2017 16:33]
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| Paradise Papers on 16:54 - Nov 6 with 1960 views | hubble |
Corbyn on this:
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| Paradise Papers on 18:01 - Nov 6 with 1914 views | Brightonhoop |
| Paradise Papers on 15:25 - Nov 6 by kensalriser |
Bit bonkers even for you mate! The BBC is the least of anyone's problems. |
Haha. It was relating to the three actors on Mrs Browns who were getting paid via what sounds like Invoice from shell companies in the Caymans. And not via payroll where they would pay Income Tax and NI.
Scandalous that a Public Service Broadcaster that takes money in on the basis of the TV Licence is fascilitating tax avoidance, even within the legal boundaries, at the expense of the NHS and Education. IMHO.
In the end these Tax dodgers are going to cost us all dearly. | | | |
| Paradise Papers on 18:16 - Nov 6 with 1902 views | essextaxiboy |
| Paradise Papers on 12:50 - Nov 6 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Still can't see where he promised to abolish ALL student debt.
Even if he did (he didn't) what's wrong with promising to end student debt? Would you not do so if you could? Or would you spend the money on tax cuts for people you watch get into limousines at the airport while you read the paper and get angry about benefit claimants?
Before you bore us with the 'hard work sets you free' most of the people in the paradise / panama papers are heirs. Not many of them started off with a single ice cream van and made their way from there.
Those working 18 - 22 year olds, who cures their cancer and teaches their future kids how to read?
The students of today are the doctors and teachers of tomorrow. Personally I want the people giving brain surgery to be debt free and not moonlighting as Wetherspoon's barmen and women.
You are deluded if you think the Tories give a flying fvck about you and your small business. It is only the grace of god that your industry hasn't already gone been solely contracted to Uber or Addison Lee and you are working for £7 an hour. You sneer at Labour and Momentum, but it's people like you we are fighting for.
Hope i'm not being too presumptive, but working class Tories are the most blinkered self damaging section of the electorate. Think on. [Post edited 6 Nov 2017 12:50]
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I would end student debt if I had a spare 100 bil I haven't ,nor has Corbyn. I have never posted about benefit claimants .
I was thinking more about the students who either don't complete the course or go on to be a city trader for an American bank.
Believe me I am under no illusions about where the cab trade is going so I have already planned my exit . No need to fight for me , that's my job .
So just a couple of presumptions but as I have said before I admire you for getting out there and campaigning for what you believe in . We are closer than you might think on a lot of things . I would vote for a centrist Labour party but unfortunately the last bloke came with war , smarm and the EU . | | | |
| Paradise Papers on 18:40 - Nov 6 with 1879 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Paradise Papers on 18:01 - Nov 6 by Brightonhoop |
Haha. It was relating to the three actors on Mrs Browns who were getting paid via what sounds like Invoice from shell companies in the Caymans. And not via payroll where they would pay Income Tax and NI.
Scandalous that a Public Service Broadcaster that takes money in on the basis of the TV Licence is fascilitating tax avoidance, even within the legal boundaries, at the expense of the NHS and Education. IMHO.
In the end these Tax dodgers are going to cost us all dearly. |
But why would they be on the BBC's payroll? I still don't understand it?
What the actors have done is probably wrong, but not sure how it's the BBC's fault? Did they need to say, 'No, your company is based in the Caymans, so we won't be paying it as it might be legal but dodgy' - is that the BBC's responsibility now? How? | |
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