| The Ashes 22:43 - Dec 7 with 19374 views | stowmarketrange |
The Ashes start in less than 90 mins,and I wondered what people thought of our chances this time?
It will be strange not to be able to have the barmy army in force out there this winter.Although I can’t see us winning the urn back,I think it will be closer than 4 years ago.Just a shame that I can’t be over there for a month like I was 4 years ago.
I think it might’ve been closer then if we’d taken Stokes along,but that’s history now.I hope we put up more of a fight this time around.
Come on the poms. [Post edited 19 Dec 2021 8:32]
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| The Ashes on 09:05 - Dec 8 with 2065 views | TheChef |
Agreed it was a good toss to lose. But nothing surprising on current form - England's batting is still very brittle and you expected the Aussies to bowl well. Anyway let's see how they do with the bat...
The ridiculous international schedule these days means it is almost impossible to prepare effectively for an away series. And you wonder why of late there have been so few away wins for Test teams. |  |
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| The Ashes on 09:25 - Dec 8 with 2022 views | ozexile |
Embarrassing. You can't come on tours like this and not have at least a couple of warm up games. The decision to drop Broad is baffling. I've tickets for day 3 in Sydney I hope it goes that long. |  | | |
| The Ashes on 09:33 - Dec 8 with 2011 views | Antti_Heinola |
I don't think not having Broad is particularly surprising. Robinson and Woakes both have been out-bowling him recently, and he doesn't get many with the bat these days. Did he bowl much in the summer? But some awful batting in there, and this really is the best we have. There's no one else. Burns and Malan had absolute shockers. |  |
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| The Ashes on 09:41 - Dec 8 with 1983 views | thame_hoops |
| The Ashes on 05:16 - Dec 8 by WirralHoop |
I doubt even the weather can save us.
Big call to leave out Broad and Anderson but not like we’ve been successful with them out there on recent tours.
Bottom line though we haven’t been able to bat consistently for a long time.
Going back to bed. |
I was disappointed that they weren’t playing, and then I thought about it, and what you have said is right. Maybe they management have just decided to try something different as it hasn’t worked before. I do understand they both will probably play in the 2 x day nighters where the ball moves around more.
It almost seems like England test team is like one of those poor windies/ Bangladesh/Sri Lanka team that used to come to England for 2 tests and get hammered. |  | | |
| The Ashes on 09:43 - Dec 8 with 1993 views | ozexile |
| The Ashes on 09:33 - Dec 8 by Antti_Heinola |
I don't think not having Broad is particularly surprising. Robinson and Woakes both have been out-bowling him recently, and he doesn't get many with the bat these days. Did he bowl much in the summer? But some awful batting in there, and this really is the best we have. There's no one else. Burns and Malan had absolute shockers. |
I may be wrong Antti but I heard they dropped him because of the short turn around of the 1st and 2nd tests. Firstly if we lose the first test it means that we have to win 2 out of the next 4 which is nigh on impossible. Plus he's had Warner as his bunny for years now. And he's one of the only bowlers with experience over here. IMO a baffling decision to drop him. | | | |
| The Ashes on 10:22 - Dec 8 with 1930 views | loftus77 |
Three things wrong with English cricket- we cant' bat, we can't bat and we can't bat. Specifically, for 3+ sessions in the first innings (the business end) of at least 3+ tests in a full series.
Mumbai - Brisbane - south London, Abu Dhabi, winning/losing toss - its the same always. And the reason we can't bat is because of our weather - 'space and climate' as the great Trevor Bailey once said. Nothing particularly wrong with our out-cricket (our bowling and fielding over the past 30 years is as good as any in the world). It's the lack of batting technique honed in youth under a warm sun that is our Achilles heel - always was - always will be. | | | |
| The Ashes on 10:38 - Dec 8 with 1904 views | sprocket |
5-0 - end of Roooooot as captain perhaps | | | |
| The Ashes on 10:51 - Dec 8 with 1894 views | Antti_Heinola |
| The Ashes on 10:38 - Dec 8 by sprocket |
5-0 - end of Roooooot as captain perhaps |
is there really a viable alternative? | |
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| The Ashes on 10:54 - Dec 8 with 1888 views | Antti_Heinola |
| The Ashes on 09:43 - Dec 8 by ozexile |
I may be wrong Antti but I heard they dropped him because of the short turn around of the 1st and 2nd tests. Firstly if we lose the first test it means that we have to win 2 out of the next 4 which is nigh on impossible. Plus he's had Warner as his bunny for years now. And he's one of the only bowlers with experience over here. IMO a baffling decision to drop him. |
Don't disagree. But I also think Leach has been criminally underused. I don't think it's baffling - I think there are lots of sound reasons why they might not be playing him - but do agree it may turn out to be the wrong decision! But also don't think that, when we lose this series, it'll be bcause of bowling choices. It'll be because we only have one reliable batter, plus Stokes, who hasn't played in a year.
I think the short turn around is extrapolation, but could be true. If so, means it makes the second test a must win. | |
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| The Ashes on 11:15 - Dec 8 with 1840 views | TheChef |
It's a microcosm of everything wrong with the ECB and the ICC/international cricket in general - focus has massively shifted to white ball cricket (largely due to the $$$$$$ and TV/sponsors), the players barely get any break (let alone dealing with covid/bubbles etc.) and then they're supposed to adapt their game at the drop of a hat without any decent prep.
In any case in the last 35 years we have only won twice in Australia.
*sigh*
Let's just hope our bowlers can do a similar job tomorrow. | |
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| The Ashes on 12:45 - Dec 8 with 1727 views | qprd |
| The Ashes on 11:15 - Dec 8 by TheChef |
It's a microcosm of everything wrong with the ECB and the ICC/international cricket in general - focus has massively shifted to white ball cricket (largely due to the $$$$$$ and TV/sponsors), the players barely get any break (let alone dealing with covid/bubbles etc.) and then they're supposed to adapt their game at the drop of a hat without any decent prep.
In any case in the last 35 years we have only won twice in Australia.
*sigh*
Let's just hope our bowlers can do a similar job tomorrow. |
Easily contradicted by the case of India, where there is more of an emphasis on white ball cricket from sponsors, fans, broadcasters, etc. The IPL is much bigger and commercialized than any white ball competition in England.
Most of the Indian test players also are captains of their IPL teams and play white ball cricket (Kohli, Rohit, Pant, Rahul to name but a few)
India done away tours with even less warmup and break than this England team. Yet they've won their last two series both in England and Australia (with their C team), in addition to a series win in Australia in their penultimate tour there
Lots of excuses and explanations, but at the end of the day, England just isnt that good.
Buttler isnt a mediocre red ball player b/c he plays white ball cricket. After 50 tests, with only 2 centuries (one of which was in meaningless circumstances against India in 2018) and an average in the low 30s, he just is a mediocre test batsman.... same can be said of Bairstow, Malan, etc.
Edit:
-to add to the point on preparation, just a few examples, again from India where the calibre of players is higher:
-KL Rahul had one of the best series in England as an opener in years (incl a match winning century at Lords and multiple 50s), despite not playing in the test team for years and not playing any first class cricket
-Shreyas Iyer made his debut two weeks against NZ and scored a debut century when his team were 110/4 and followed it with a 75 when his team were 51/5.. he hadnt played a first class match since 2019
-Washington Sundar (arguably a bowling all-rounder) scored 67 at the Gabba on debut with his team 180/6 and 140 runs behind Australia... in his test debut and again, having not played a first class match in over 2 years
The list goes on and on, just with India.
White ball cricket is an irreversible trend. instead of complaining about it, when its never going to away, England cricket fans should just accept it and the hierarchy should leverage the skills gained there to improve the red ball format... guys like Sundar, Pant, Shreyas Iyer, etc have been able to perform in incredibly high pressure situations b/c they are used to the intensity and pressure of the IPL- English players are very mentally brittle and would probably benefit from playing under this pressure..
innings like Stokes at Headingley and Pant at the Gabba were only achievable b/c of the shots they learnt from white ball cricket and the mental toughness they gained from consistently playing high profile matches....
no point complaining about white ball cricket incessantly [Post edited 8 Dec 2021 12:57]
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| The Ashes on 12:54 - Dec 8 with 1709 views | TheChef |
| The Ashes on 12:45 - Dec 8 by qprd |
Easily contradicted by the case of India, where there is more of an emphasis on white ball cricket from sponsors, fans, broadcasters, etc. The IPL is much bigger and commercialized than any white ball competition in England.
Most of the Indian test players also are captains of their IPL teams and play white ball cricket (Kohli, Rohit, Pant, Rahul to name but a few)
India done away tours with even less warmup and break than this England team. Yet they've won their last two series both in England and Australia (with their C team), in addition to a series win in Australia in their penultimate tour there
Lots of excuses and explanations, but at the end of the day, England just isnt that good.
Buttler isnt a mediocre red ball player b/c he plays white ball cricket. After 50 tests, with only 2 centuries (one of which was in meaningless circumstances against India in 2018) and an average in the low 30s, he just is a mediocre test batsman.... same can be said of Bairstow, Malan, etc.
Edit:
-to add to the point on preparation, just a few examples, again from India where the calibre of players is higher:
-KL Rahul had one of the best series in England as an opener in years (incl a match winning century at Lords and multiple 50s), despite not playing in the test team for years and not playing any first class cricket
-Shreyas Iyer made his debut two weeks against NZ and scored a debut century when his team were 110/4 and followed it with a 75 when his team were 51/5.. he hadnt played a first class match since 2019
-Washington Sundar (arguably a bowling all-rounder) scored 67 at the Gabba on debut with his team 180/6 and 140 runs behind Australia... in his test debut and again, having not played a first class match in over 2 years
The list goes on and on, just with India.
White ball cricket is an irreversible trend. instead of complaining about it, when its never going to away, England cricket fans should just accept it and the hierarchy should leverage the skills gained there to improve the red ball format... guys like Sundar, Pant, Shreyas Iyer, etc have been able to perform in incredibly high pressure situations b/c they are used to the intensity and pressure of the IPL- English players are very mentally brittle and would probably benefit from playing under this pressure..
innings like Stokes at Headingley and Pant at the Gabba were only achievable b/c of the shots they learnt from white ball cricket and the mental toughness they gained from consistently playing high profile matches....
no point complaining about white ball cricket incessantly [Post edited 8 Dec 2021 12:57]
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Fair enough! India are better than England.
Our Test batting has been ropey for quite a while - white ball doesn't help but yes true it can be improved with the right coaching/player application. So you'd have to question the England coaching set up (and I don't even know who currently is the England batting coach). | |
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| The Ashes on 12:56 - Dec 8 with 1708 views | CamberleyR |
| The Ashes on 10:22 - Dec 8 by loftus77 |
Three things wrong with English cricket- we cant' bat, we can't bat and we can't bat. Specifically, for 3+ sessions in the first innings (the business end) of at least 3+ tests in a full series.
Mumbai - Brisbane - south London, Abu Dhabi, winning/losing toss - its the same always. And the reason we can't bat is because of our weather - 'space and climate' as the great Trevor Bailey once said. Nothing particularly wrong with our out-cricket (our bowling and fielding over the past 30 years is as good as any in the world). It's the lack of batting technique honed in youth under a warm sun that is our Achilles heel - always was - always will be. |
"It's the lack of batting technique honed in youth under a warm sun that is our Achilles heel - always was - always will be."
And that won't likely change all the while the domestic schedule stays as it with no red ball cricket played in the core summer months of June, July and August and shunted to the start and end of the season. |  |
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| The Ashes on 13:01 - Dec 8 with 1702 views | eastside_r |
Made it to lunch and just beyond. The £15odd monthly sub I took out yesterday to BT is not looking a great investment.
Aussie bowled well but I think there are questionable selection and toss decisions. In order to get anything from this series, the England set of players will need to over perform and the Aussies underperform. Can’t see England scoring enough runs against a good and motivated Aussie attack.
We need several more superhuman efforts from Stokes, to even stand a chance. |  | | |
| The Ashes on 13:03 - Dec 8 with 1697 views | qprd |
| The Ashes on 09:33 - Dec 8 by Antti_Heinola |
I don't think not having Broad is particularly surprising. Robinson and Woakes both have been out-bowling him recently, and he doesn't get many with the bat these days. Did he bowl much in the summer? But some awful batting in there, and this really is the best we have. There's no one else. Burns and Malan had absolute shockers. |
Woakes only played 1 test match in 2021, as he was injured. broad really only featured in the first test against india and then got injured. I'm not sure form is relevant for either
at the end of the day, Woakes is absolutely useless with the ball outside of England (and a damn good bowler in English conditions). Broad is also less effective outside of ENgland, but hes still an all time great, has a lot of experience and otherwise has talismanic qualities
england selectors have a bizarre obsession with their tail batting, which is why i think they selected woakes... it makes sense to some degree b/c 1-7 (other than root) is somewhat underwhelming, but at the end of the day, you should not be sacrificing a better bowler in broad for some spare runs that woakes can score at no 8 (woakes batting record outside of england is also pretty mediocre, btw) | | | |
| The Ashes on 13:49 - Dec 8 with 1637 views | TheChef |
| The Ashes on 13:01 - Dec 8 by eastside_r |
Made it to lunch and just beyond. The £15odd monthly sub I took out yesterday to BT is not looking a great investment.
Aussie bowled well but I think there are questionable selection and toss decisions. In order to get anything from this series, the England set of players will need to over perform and the Aussies underperform. Can’t see England scoring enough runs against a good and motivated Aussie attack.
We need several more superhuman efforts from Stokes, to even stand a chance. |
Bad enough with England being England, but then BT Sport just hop on the Fox broadcast coverage and we have to endure wall to wall Straya commentators.
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| The Ashes on 13:49 - Dec 8 with 1641 views | stowmarketrange |
| The Ashes on 12:54 - Dec 8 by TheChef |
Fair enough! India are better than England.
Our Test batting has been ropey for quite a while - white ball doesn't help but yes true it can be improved with the right coaching/player application. So you'd have to question the England coaching set up (and I don't even know who currently is the England batting coach). |
Phil Tufnell shares the role with Monty panasar. | | | |
| The Ashes on 13:59 - Dec 8 with 1628 views | stowmarketrange |
| The Ashes on 12:45 - Dec 8 by qprd |
Easily contradicted by the case of India, where there is more of an emphasis on white ball cricket from sponsors, fans, broadcasters, etc. The IPL is much bigger and commercialized than any white ball competition in England.
Most of the Indian test players also are captains of their IPL teams and play white ball cricket (Kohli, Rohit, Pant, Rahul to name but a few)
India done away tours with even less warmup and break than this England team. Yet they've won their last two series both in England and Australia (with their C team), in addition to a series win in Australia in their penultimate tour there
Lots of excuses and explanations, but at the end of the day, England just isnt that good.
Buttler isnt a mediocre red ball player b/c he plays white ball cricket. After 50 tests, with only 2 centuries (one of which was in meaningless circumstances against India in 2018) and an average in the low 30s, he just is a mediocre test batsman.... same can be said of Bairstow, Malan, etc.
Edit:
-to add to the point on preparation, just a few examples, again from India where the calibre of players is higher:
-KL Rahul had one of the best series in England as an opener in years (incl a match winning century at Lords and multiple 50s), despite not playing in the test team for years and not playing any first class cricket
-Shreyas Iyer made his debut two weeks against NZ and scored a debut century when his team were 110/4 and followed it with a 75 when his team were 51/5.. he hadnt played a first class match since 2019
-Washington Sundar (arguably a bowling all-rounder) scored 67 at the Gabba on debut with his team 180/6 and 140 runs behind Australia... in his test debut and again, having not played a first class match in over 2 years
The list goes on and on, just with India.
White ball cricket is an irreversible trend. instead of complaining about it, when its never going to away, England cricket fans should just accept it and the hierarchy should leverage the skills gained there to improve the red ball format... guys like Sundar, Pant, Shreyas Iyer, etc have been able to perform in incredibly high pressure situations b/c they are used to the intensity and pressure of the IPL- English players are very mentally brittle and would probably benefit from playing under this pressure..
innings like Stokes at Headingley and Pant at the Gabba were only achievable b/c of the shots they learnt from white ball cricket and the mental toughness they gained from consistently playing high profile matches....
no point complaining about white ball cricket incessantly [Post edited 8 Dec 2021 12:57]
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Having a population of 1 billion people might mean that you have a better chance of finding 11 good cricketers.Population numbers isn’t everything as Australia and New Zealand will testify too,but being able to go out and play cricket for more than the 3 months we can do over here helps too.And the fact that a lot of kids play cricket on every occasion and every surface in india might help a bit too.Kids in England tend to play more football than cricket,if they ever go outside and play at all,so I can’t see the situation improving any time soon. | | | |
| The Ashes on 14:08 - Dec 8 with 1614 views | TheChef |
| The Ashes on 13:59 - Dec 8 by stowmarketrange |
Having a population of 1 billion people might mean that you have a better chance of finding 11 good cricketers.Population numbers isn’t everything as Australia and New Zealand will testify too,but being able to go out and play cricket for more than the 3 months we can do over here helps too.And the fact that a lot of kids play cricket on every occasion and every surface in india might help a bit too.Kids in England tend to play more football than cricket,if they ever go outside and play at all,so I can’t see the situation improving any time soon. |
Good points - interesting podcast on this:
The class system within Englich cricket - https://anchor.fm/redinker/episodes/The-Fetishising-of-English-Cricket-with-Dunc | |
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| The Ashes on 17:20 - Dec 8 with 1511 views | PhilmyRs |
As always, important to comment once both teams have batted on the pitch, to me it looks like it will still do a fair bit tomorrow. Interesting to see how it goes.
That said, it was always likely to be a short game based on our poor batting, the build up both teams have had and the Green pitch due to the weather around Brisbane. Makes the decision to include Leach over Broad strange. If Leach bows tomorrow it's likely the Aussies are piling on the runs in which case the game is probably up. If we find them 50 or 60 for 3 but than the seamers legs start to go and we let them off the hook, I think the team may rue not having Broad to turn to. On that wicket Broad would be a genuine threat early on, whereas Leech could be a threat later on, it's just the game won't get to that stage due to our batting and this pitch.
Fingers crossed we knock them over for 200 and pile on the runs via a Root ton. | | | |
| The Ashes on 19:16 - Dec 8 with 1412 views | Hooparoo |
| The Ashes on 17:20 - Dec 8 by PhilmyRs |
As always, important to comment once both teams have batted on the pitch, to me it looks like it will still do a fair bit tomorrow. Interesting to see how it goes.
That said, it was always likely to be a short game based on our poor batting, the build up both teams have had and the Green pitch due to the weather around Brisbane. Makes the decision to include Leach over Broad strange. If Leach bows tomorrow it's likely the Aussies are piling on the runs in which case the game is probably up. If we find them 50 or 60 for 3 but than the seamers legs start to go and we let them off the hook, I think the team may rue not having Broad to turn to. On that wicket Broad would be a genuine threat early on, whereas Leech could be a threat later on, it's just the game won't get to that stage due to our batting and this pitch.
Fingers crossed we knock them over for 200 and pile on the runs via a Root ton. |
It’s humid here again today so your bowlers will get some swing early on if they pitch it up. That said, days 2 and 3 are generally the best days for batting at the Gabba.
As an Aussie, I find it a bit mystifying why you left Broad out. These conditions would be perfect for him. Ah well, what do I know? 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ |  |
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| The Ashes on 19:21 - Dec 8 with 1409 views | ShotKneesHoop |
| The Ashes on 11:15 - Dec 8 by TheChef |
It's a microcosm of everything wrong with the ECB and the ICC/international cricket in general - focus has massively shifted to white ball cricket (largely due to the $$$$$$ and TV/sponsors), the players barely get any break (let alone dealing with covid/bubbles etc.) and then they're supposed to adapt their game at the drop of a hat without any decent prep.
In any case in the last 35 years we have only won twice in Australia.
*sigh*
Let's just hope our bowlers can do a similar job tomorrow. |
In a nutshell, Sir, you are spot on. Following the money with white ball cricket. IPL rules, so we follow with T20 and its ludicrous poor 100 orphan.
The problem gets much deeper .The first thing that Cameron "The Pork Man" canned was the School Sports Partnership, so any linkage between State schools and clubs went down the Swanee.
Now you have to go to a public school to have any chance of representing England in every sport - .... except Football.
Because I am a panel umpire, I was circulated with a questionnaire by the ECB within days of the Yorkshire CCC racism row breaking out (almost like they knew the shyte it would stir up and they were desperate for soundings from their members.)
Rating from 1 (highest) to 5 (lowest) these are my perceptions of the management of the ECB that I fed back to Lords.
5. Misoginist
4. Poor Sexual Orientation
3 Racist
2. Class Orientated
1. Elitist regime chasing the money to the exclusion of anything else
Why will the Aussies will usually stuff us? Because 1 & 2 don't apply to them. so their 1,2 and 3 order is the same as our 3, 4 and 5.
I would be amazed if we won any game over there this winter, the weather will save us at least twice. [Post edited 8 Dec 2021 19:28]
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| Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me! |
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| The Ashes on 20:15 - Dec 8 with 1375 views | derbyhoop |
England haven't had a Test batting lineup since Cook retired.
Far too many players give their ts away cheaply or just haven't got the necessary technique to deal with high quality bowling. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| The Ashes on 20:34 - Dec 8 with 1351 views | toboboly |
| The Ashes on 20:15 - Dec 8 by derbyhoop |
England haven't had a Test batting lineup since Cook retired.
Far too many players give their ts away cheaply or just haven't got the necessary technique to deal with high quality bowling. |
The calendar changing to completely marginalise county cricket coming home to roost as well. Over the last 15 years the ECB and ICC have completely knackered Test cricket. |  |
| Sexy Asian dwarves wanted. |
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| The Ashes on 20:56 - Dec 8 with 1320 views | Superhoops2808 |
Been a member at Kent CCC for several years now, and this is an issue regularly discussed. The ECB need to hang their heads in shame - There is very little if any red ball cricket and when there is its in freezing cold months of April May and tail end of September. The focus has been solely on white ball cricket because as someone on here said it is all about chasing the pound signs.
When was the last time a quality spinner came through the ranks for England? And dont say Leach, Ali or Bess because they are nowhere near world class. Because no one plays spin in April or May!!
The county championship has been burnt at the expense of the 100, something that the majority of real cricket fans despise. We had the T20 and One day Cup, both popular, the last thing we needed was another white ball tournament. But again its all about the pound signs.
And then, today when we had the ideal conditions for English bowlers, our captain decides to Bat. I agree we shouldn't judge until both sides have had a bat, but what a huge boost to the Aussies when Burns decided to go walkabout in his crease. As a captain Morgan reads the game so well, but sometimes I feel Root is so far out of his depth its beyond belief. Cummins must have thought he had won the lottery on his first day as captain. But if we bin Root, again as someone else said here, who is out there to replace him. Dont want Butler or Stokes carrying the heavy burden of that, look what it did to Flintoff and KP.
To drop Broad, when he has had more rest than Robinson/Woakes is madness and I can only hope it does as it has before and riles Broad up to perform like a man possessed. Also, I may be biased, but Crawley is in his element when the ball is coming on to him at pace and he was the only one to make any significant runs during the limited warm up time they did have. Pitches in Australia are well known for that style of batting but he didn't even make the 12.
The only thing the ECB cannot be blamed for is the shambolic warm up (or lack of) that England have had. The weather put paid to that really and no one has any control over that.
I was optimistic that the series would be 2-1 either way, but that day one will have done a lot for each teams confidence... And in Englands case it will be a negative effect.
By the way, anyone who does want to watch it, you can buy a months pass from BT rather than sign up for a contract. Dont know how much it is as I have BT for WRC so have not looked. [Post edited 8 Dec 2021 20:57]
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