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if the Tories have any hope of winning the next Election they need to revolt and hoy the Useless May out NOW and carry out what 17.5 million people voted for which was the most important vote of our generation , the likes of Johnson, May , Cameron, Gove are pretty much worse than traitors IMO
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
if the Tories have any hope of winning the next Election they need to revolt and hoy the Useless May out NOW and carry out what 17.5 million people voted for which was the most important vote of our generation , the likes of Johnson, May , Cameron, Gove are pretty much worse than traitors IMO
I would have thought Johnson and Gove’s position is right up your street Paul?
17.4m people may have voted to Leave but, at no point was it ever defined what Leave actually meant. Theresa May's red lines have just made things more complex than it already was. Over the last 2 years it has become clear there are only 2 high level approaches that the government can adopt. 1) Cut ourselves away completely, with the risk of crashing the UK economy as investment falls and business (Airbus, BMW, Rolls-Royce, etc) makes plans to re-locate 2) Keep as closely aligned as possible to our nearest and biggest market and accept that means following the standards, rules and regulations decided elsewhere
None is politically acceptable to the majority. Some would accept option 1 but many Leave voters are not prepared to accept the consequences to the economy and jobs. Option 2 would, according to ERG, presumably Davis and his team, and some others mean betraying "the will of the people".
There is a third option. Call the whole thing off , before it becomes a victim of its own contradictions.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
I wonder how the Sunderland Nissan workers (for example) would vote now, if there were a second referendum. Most Leave voters had no idea what exactly they were voting for.
17.4m people may have voted to Leave but, at no point was it ever defined what Leave actually meant. Theresa May's red lines have just made things more complex than it already was. Over the last 2 years it has become clear there are only 2 high level approaches that the government can adopt. 1) Cut ourselves away completely, with the risk of crashing the UK economy as investment falls and business (Airbus, BMW, Rolls-Royce, etc) makes plans to re-locate 2) Keep as closely aligned as possible to our nearest and biggest market and accept that means following the standards, rules and regulations decided elsewhere
None is politically acceptable to the majority. Some would accept option 1 but many Leave voters are not prepared to accept the consequences to the economy and jobs. Option 2 would, according to ERG, presumably Davis and his team, and some others mean betraying "the will of the people".
There is a third option. Call the whole thing off , before it becomes a victim of its own contradictions.
I would have thought Johnson and Gove’s position is right up your street Paul?
initially yes Baz I thought they would be tough and help deliver what was voted for , they have spoken a good game about Brexit but have p1ssed about so much I actually think its to late for this mob now , Johnson is all about himself (like all politicians I know) but its now backfiring, they should have been up mays ar se from the off instead of lurking in the shadows , Labour should and will get in next leaving Johnson looking like the buffoon he is , this has to be one of the worst government's ever and I include Blairs lot in that
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
I wonder how the Sunderland Nissan workers (for example) would vote now, if there were a second referendum. Most Leave voters had no idea what exactly they were voting for.
With a second consecutive relegation, I think they've got enough on their plates right now.
'Always In Motion' by John Honney available on amazon.co.uk
Why we keep asking the EU for acceptance I do not know. Two years ago the Government should have said 'we're off, we will have total control over our immigration policy, we are happy to have free trade with you but you charge us tariffs and we'll do the same to you. Let us know if that's agreeable otherwise go fck yourselves'. Or words to that effect.
Every major company on the continent would have told the EU commissioners to back down and get on with it, instead we have this mess.
I'm at a point where I hope the Government falls, Corbyn gets in and completely shafts every last one of us in the process. Only when we're on our knees will people finally accept we need a new brand of politics that isn't Labour or the Conservatives.
Whether we like it or not we have to press through with it otherwise it's makes a mockery of the whole democratic process.
For me the biggest change has to be that politicians etc. are accountable for what they say, what they promise etc. They simply cannot blatantly lie especially in the run-up to elections/referendums and get way with it.
They have to be duty & legally bound to present the truth and the facts and if that means they lose whatever it is they're trying to do then so be it, that's how it works. We have a bunch of children running the country who stamp their feet and tell fibs if they don't get what they want.
Enough of this schit. Act and behave like an adult or face the consequences.
17.4m people may have voted to Leave but, at no point was it ever defined what Leave actually meant. Theresa May's red lines have just made things more complex than it already was. Over the last 2 years it has become clear there are only 2 high level approaches that the government can adopt. 1) Cut ourselves away completely, with the risk of crashing the UK economy as investment falls and business (Airbus, BMW, Rolls-Royce, etc) makes plans to re-locate 2) Keep as closely aligned as possible to our nearest and biggest market and accept that means following the standards, rules and regulations decided elsewhere
None is politically acceptable to the majority. Some would accept option 1 but many Leave voters are not prepared to accept the consequences to the economy and jobs. Option 2 would, according to ERG, presumably Davis and his team, and some others mean betraying "the will of the people".
There is a third option. Call the whole thing off , before it becomes a victim of its own contradictions.
Surely it was quite clear? Leave the EU? Pretty straightforward I would have thought.
Surely it was quite clear? Leave the EU? Pretty straightforward I would have thought.
Whichever side of the debate you're on, leaving the EU might be the least straightforward thing the country has ever done, which is why more than 2 years later no-one has a clue how best/least badly to achieve it. The Tories are an utter shambles and brought it on themselves, but this is not a straightforward situation.
i voted to leave back in 2016 but if they do a re-run I'm changing to remain. Its not just because of the complete pigs ear the government and May have made of it but that certainly is a factor.
Whether we like it or not we have to press through with it otherwise it's makes a mockery of the whole democratic process.
For me the biggest change has to be that politicians etc. are accountable for what they say, what they promise etc. They simply cannot blatantly lie especially in the run-up to elections/referendums and get way with it.
They have to be duty & legally bound to present the truth and the facts and if that means they lose whatever it is they're trying to do then so be it, that's how it works. We have a bunch of children running the country who stamp their feet and tell fibs if they don't get what they want.
Enough of this schit. Act and behave like an adult or face the consequences.
[Post edited 9 Jul 2018 11:36]
But the referendum wasn't very democratic and there were two options, remain which had a clear outcome or leave which had several options and possibilities. At the time there was talk of adopting a Danish solution or Swiss solutions amongst others which hinted at different levels of relationship with the EU from the outside after Brexit. So Brexit was allowed to be all things to all people without clear definition of what leave would actually entail. Then we have the politicians telling us after the event, "this is what they voted for" as if there was any clear definition and "the will of the people" who were all thinking of different things while a slightly smaller number of people all voted for one thing.
It just doesn't seem like a good form of democracy to me.
But the referendum wasn't very democratic and there were two options, remain which had a clear outcome or leave which had several options and possibilities. At the time there was talk of adopting a Danish solution or Swiss solutions amongst others which hinted at different levels of relationship with the EU from the outside after Brexit. So Brexit was allowed to be all things to all people without clear definition of what leave would actually entail. Then we have the politicians telling us after the event, "this is what they voted for" as if there was any clear definition and "the will of the people" who were all thinking of different things while a slightly smaller number of people all voted for one thing.
It just doesn't seem like a good form of democracy to me.
Which is exactly why it needs to change. We can't change the decision from June 2016 because it's realised it's flawed after the event (sort of like FFP!), we can though use it as a massive leverage to change the process going forward to ensure it doesn't happen again.
I'm sure most of you have seen how Danny Dyer sums it up: "No one's got a fckin clue what Brexit is.." "It's like a mad riddle.."
But for those that haven't, I found this amusing...
Danny Dyer is a cretin , he seems to be everywhere at the moment and not in a good way either , the bloke is an embarrassment with that stupid mockney accent ,
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
17.4m people may have voted to Leave but, at no point was it ever defined what Leave actually meant. Theresa May's red lines have just made things more complex than it already was. Over the last 2 years it has become clear there are only 2 high level approaches that the government can adopt. 1) Cut ourselves away completely, with the risk of crashing the UK economy as investment falls and business (Airbus, BMW, Rolls-Royce, etc) makes plans to re-locate 2) Keep as closely aligned as possible to our nearest and biggest market and accept that means following the standards, rules and regulations decided elsewhere
None is politically acceptable to the majority. Some would accept option 1 but many Leave voters are not prepared to accept the consequences to the economy and jobs. Option 2 would, according to ERG, presumably Davis and his team, and some others mean betraying "the will of the people".
There is a third option. Call the whole thing off , before it becomes a victim of its own contradictions.
If Option 2) is deemed to be the best way forward then we may as well stay in the EU, otherwise we will still be run by Europe, we will still have to pay into EU coffers, we will still be subject to EU Law, the only difference will be that we don't have any say in how the EU is run, i.e. no vote.
if the Tories have any hope of winning the next Election they need to revolt and hoy the Useless May out NOW and carry out what 17.5 million people voted for which was the most important vote of our generation , the likes of Johnson, May , Cameron, Gove are pretty much worse than traitors IMO
They ARE carrying out what 17.5m voted for though.
Being any more detailed about outcome than was on the ballot and 17.5m people didn't vote for it.
The real issue here is that we've not had a proper decent leader since Robin Hood, and neither have we looked anywhere near having one either!
Our politicians are utterly useless and frankly, there is no one in the wings who offers a shred of optimism. Certainly not among the Tories and less so on the Labour benches, possible Stammer aside.
We have absolutely messed up our negotiating position to such an extent, that the real opportunity we had on 24 June 2016, has gone. Namely, that the EU is of itself, utterly incapable of making a decision in a timely manner. It never has! But this is due to the fact that the timing of the referendum was wrong - if it was needed, then it should have been further down the road, not as a result of Cameron trying to resolve a fight in his own ranks that he was too naive to think he couldn't lose it!
While I am not necessarily saying SteveC's position above is correct, if we had been cohesive and robust at the outset, then this would be a lot further down the way toward an outcome, because, as he correctly said, the bankers/multinationals would have pushed it.
Whether Remainers like it: the EU is rather German-centric; it's increasingly neo-liberal; and as we saw with Greece, not averse to a lick of paint from the austerity brush either. This notion of free-movement is nothing more than a ruse to allow cheaper labour to move from second-tier EU, to first-tier. Its economic and monetary policies have arguably been worse than ours and as for those little nuggets of: transparency, accountability and efficiency, well the EU is not the ideal model.
Sadly, too many of the Brexit leaders turned this into a race issue. They should hang their heads in shame for what they said/did. The fact that it was allowed to fester, is a stain on the UK.
As Macron recently admitted, if France held a referendum, he could not rule out a Francexit, and to assume everyone is humming the 'Anthem of Europe' within the EU is patently rubbish. The EU was fretting that the demise of Greece would send the institution into a nosedive - if that really was the case, then no way could the EU, much less the global economy afford to see the fifth richest economy go nipples north.
What has happened, is that the increasingly neo-liberal agenda has tightened its grip and not just on the UK, but globally as well. They have been aided and abetted by arguably the weakest PM in living memory, presiding over the most talent-less government, in one of the poorest House of Commons I can think of. They have made us a laughing stock and if that JR-M gets into the hot-seat, then abandon ship.
God help us if Gareth and his Charges don't 'bring it home' because its not waistcoats we'll need, but flak jackets.
Utterly and completely useless from top to bottom. I fear a second vote looms and the fall-out will be messy.
'Always In Motion' by John Honney available on amazon.co.uk
Arrrrrrrr.... Corbyn Dioxide be very tricky stuff.Nearly scuppered The Black Pig on a bounty jaunt in the Devil's Triangle,ship lost complete support and foundered up to the gunwales.
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