| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 23:04 - Jan 26 with 2677 views | monmouth |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 22:49 - Jan 26 by Phil_S |
AH that's worrying as it most definitely was green
Try a re-read you may see the difference  |
Ooh now see that would be clever. Very clever.
#humbled |  |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 10:04 - Jan 27 with 2547 views | JackSwanTV |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 21:59 - Jan 26 by Phil_S |
Interesting because in the "misleading" article it is taken as red that Brendan and Joe Allen weren't included despite them leaving after may 2012 |
So what are dates of this 3 1/2 years? And what is net figures for monk? Simple questions. :) |  |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 11:55 - Jan 27 with 2490 views | Jackanapes |
If Jackswan is trying to play Roger Cook, does that mean we can hit him over the head with a golf club? If so Im at the front of the queue. |  |
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“The stupidest thing she knew was for people to act like they knew all about the things they knew absolutely nothing about.†|
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 12:29 - Jan 27 with 2461 views | Highjack |
Anyone got a link to this Kylie girl? She sounds fascinating. |  |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 13:29 - Jan 27 with 2418 views | ExiledJack |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 10:04 - Jan 27 by JackSwanTV |
So what are dates of this 3 1/2 years? And what is net figures for monk? Simple questions. :) |
I must concur that these are natural and reasonable questions to ask given the way that the figures are presented in the statement. It is a little bit misleading to switch between gross and net within the same sentence, while only making direct reference to net. An honest mistake and lessons will be learned I'm sure.
Recent missteps aside, we've by and large done pretty good transfer business since we've been in this league. Hence the inquisition of sorts. It would seem that we are either spending far too much on agents fees (contrary to reports from previous years), signing on fees and wages, or a combination. With the incredible turnover we now generate (albeit mostly through the TV revenues) the club's finances really shouldn't be on such a knife edge.
The statement makes a salient point in regard to the financial mismanagement of previous regimes. Whilst we can clearly see financial prudence in the headline transfer fees in recent years, perhaps there is some cause for concern in other aspects of expenditure? That being said, it appears that the club have made a series of strong and sensible decisions in recent weeks, including what has been brought out in the Trust's statement. Onwards and upwards together. | | | |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 13:58 - Jan 27 with 2385 views | Flashberryjack |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 11:55 - Jan 27 by Jackanapes |
If Jackswan is trying to play Roger Cook, does that mean we can hit him over the head with a golf club? If so Im at the front of the queue. |
Fair play! I don't think jackswan is trying to play Roger Cook or anyone else, other than being a swans fan asking question of a financial statement released by the trust.
If the trust didn't want questions asked about the statement, then maybe they shouldn't have published it in the first place and waited for the club to release the official audited accounts. |  |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 14:22 - Jan 27 with 2364 views | Uxbridge |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 13:58 - Jan 27 by Flashberryjack |
Fair play! I don't think jackswan is trying to play Roger Cook or anyone else, other than being a swans fan asking question of a financial statement released by the trust.
If the trust didn't want questions asked about the statement, then maybe they shouldn't have published it in the first place and waited for the club to release the official audited accounts. |
The financial accounts were released weeks ago.
Questions are fine. Twisting the words to make some spurious argument less so. |  |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 15:44 - Jan 27 with 2313 views | Millie |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 13:29 - Jan 27 by ExiledJack |
I must concur that these are natural and reasonable questions to ask given the way that the figures are presented in the statement. It is a little bit misleading to switch between gross and net within the same sentence, while only making direct reference to net. An honest mistake and lessons will be learned I'm sure.
Recent missteps aside, we've by and large done pretty good transfer business since we've been in this league. Hence the inquisition of sorts. It would seem that we are either spending far too much on agents fees (contrary to reports from previous years), signing on fees and wages, or a combination. With the incredible turnover we now generate (albeit mostly through the TV revenues) the club's finances really shouldn't be on such a knife edge.
The statement makes a salient point in regard to the financial mismanagement of previous regimes. Whilst we can clearly see financial prudence in the headline transfer fees in recent years, perhaps there is some cause for concern in other aspects of expenditure? That being said, it appears that the club have made a series of strong and sensible decisions in recent weeks, including what has been brought out in the Trust's statement. Onwards and upwards together. |
The thing is if you don't spend the vast sums on agents fees, sign on, transfer and wages you won't last long in this division.
It can be easily debated that a few mistakes were made but that happens at all clubs, what we can't afford to do is make too many.
Guidolin is trying to bring in an Italian, I'm sure we've all said ive never heard of him but we have to trust the judgement of the head coach, it could be a Michu or another Eder? | | | |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 15:52 - Jan 27 with 2303 views | Flashberryjack |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 14:22 - Jan 27 by Uxbridge |
The financial accounts were released weeks ago.
Questions are fine. Twisting the words to make some spurious argument less so. |
Where they ? then why have the trust released their statement.
Who's twisting words ? as a swans fan that doesn't know one end of a balance sheet from the other, I thought the questions were relevant. | |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 16:00 - Jan 27 with 2296 views | Uxbridge |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 15:52 - Jan 27 by Flashberryjack |
Where they ? then why have the trust released their statement.
Who's twisting words ? as a swans fan that doesn't know one end of a balance sheet from the other, I thought the questions were relevant. |
Have you read the statement? It's only tangentially to do with the recently released accounts and all to do with the events of recent weeks and the challenges the club faces, along with the Trust's view of the principles that should be held in place. | |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 16:01 - Jan 27 with 2295 views | Millie |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 15:52 - Jan 27 by Flashberryjack |
Where they ? then why have the trust released their statement.
Who's twisting words ? as a swans fan that doesn't know one end of a balance sheet from the other, I thought the questions were relevant. |
I'm sure the message is clear, clubs like swansea have to make every signing count, paying good transfer fees and wages is no guarantee to give you value for money, I remember Man U paid £28m for Jaun Sebastian Veron and was sold a year or so later for £15m to Chelsea and they were robbed.
Sh!t happens, what swansea need to make sure is that it doesn't happen to often. | | | |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 16:25 - Jan 27 with 2274 views | Flashberryjack |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 16:00 - Jan 27 by Uxbridge |
Have you read the statement? It's only tangentially to do with the recently released accounts and all to do with the events of recent weeks and the challenges the club faces, along with the Trust's view of the principles that should be held in place. |
Yes I have read it......told me nothing that I didn't already know/suspect if I'm honest.
Do I agree with the trusts principles ? undoubtedly so.
Blame it on my education......but I thought it a pointless exercise, and one that invoked more questions than answers, but there you go ! "you can please some of the people" | |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 16:56 - Jan 27 with 2243 views | Millie |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 16:25 - Jan 27 by Flashberryjack |
Yes I have read it......told me nothing that I didn't already know/suspect if I'm honest.
Do I agree with the trusts principles ? undoubtedly so.
Blame it on my education......but I thought it a pointless exercise, and one that invoked more questions than answers, but there you go ! "you can please some of the people" |
Is it the preverbial case of damned if you do and damned if you don't?
I look forward to part III | | | |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 16:58 - Jan 27 with 2238 views | ExiledJack |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 16:01 - Jan 27 by Millie |
I'm sure the message is clear, clubs like swansea have to make every signing count, paying good transfer fees and wages is no guarantee to give you value for money, I remember Man U paid £28m for Jaun Sebastian Veron and was sold a year or so later for £15m to Chelsea and they were robbed.
Sh!t happens, what swansea need to make sure is that it doesn't happen to often. |
Indeed Millie, but Swansea haven't made those kinds of signings (and we're all grateful for that). A few minor missteps recently, but overall our transfer business has been brilliant and we couldn't have hoped for better.
The elephant in the room is where has the money gone? If all of our non-transfer income is completely absorbed by operating costs is that a sustainable path? More to the point, can we do better? We can offer players a unique opportunity to play in the world's most popular league, we shouldn't undersell our position and pay over the odds. | | | |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 17:21 - Jan 27 with 2212 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 21:59 - Jan 26 by Phil_S |
Interesting because in the "misleading" article it is taken as red that Brendan and Joe Allen weren't included despite them leaving after may 2012 |
Yes - that's why I pointed out to jackswan that I believed based on my calculations (for what they were worth) that the assumption in his article was false.
Btw - I've just seen the comprehensive list of transfers in and out posted here and the figure of c. £70m - £75m for transfers out that I used seems to be roughly the same as that (there is about £4m before the date on there in total and the overall was £78m so that also supports what has been said.
The really interesting bit is the difference between headline figures there and what our accounts show for acquisitions. We know that's not signing on fees as they are not included in the accounts it seems, so our other fees are just insane. Not saying that's us alone btw - symptomatic of the industry I imagine, but just shocking. | | | |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 17:21 - Jan 27 with 2212 views | Flashberryjack |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 16:56 - Jan 27 by Millie |
Is it the preverbial case of damned if you do and damned if you don't?
I look forward to part III |
Very true | |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 17:23 - Jan 27 with 2210 views | Dr_Winston |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 16:58 - Jan 27 by ExiledJack |
Indeed Millie, but Swansea haven't made those kinds of signings (and we're all grateful for that). A few minor missteps recently, but overall our transfer business has been brilliant and we couldn't have hoped for better.
The elephant in the room is where has the money gone? If all of our non-transfer income is completely absorbed by operating costs is that a sustainable path? More to the point, can we do better? We can offer players a unique opportunity to play in the world's most popular league, we shouldn't undersell our position and pay over the odds. |
Tend to wonder just where the clubs scouting focus is.
Seems like we're relying more on agents to bring us players for the first team whilst the clubs own scouts look more at the u21 side.
Would explain why costs have gone up and the number of bargains down. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 19:53 - Jan 27 with 2116 views | Millie |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 17:23 - Jan 27 by Dr_Winston |
Tend to wonder just where the clubs scouting focus is.
Seems like we're relying more on agents to bring us players for the first team whilst the clubs own scouts look more at the u21 side.
Would explain why costs have gone up and the number of bargains down. |
There's no doubt that agents play a major role in the movement of players these days, I'm sure a scout will build a dossier and offer a professional opinion on whether a particular signing will prove value for money. The manager will have final say and it just leaves HJ to tie up the deal.
I don't believe this is a two year process more likely window to window. | | | |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 22:32 - Jan 27 with 2013 views | dobjack2 |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 17:23 - Jan 27 by Dr_Winston |
Tend to wonder just where the clubs scouting focus is.
Seems like we're relying more on agents to bring us players for the first team whilst the clubs own scouts look more at the u21 side.
Would explain why costs have gone up and the number of bargains down. |
That seems to be a fair assessment.
As far as the first team is concerned we appear to have abandoned hungry British players from lower divisions that can challenge for the first team - they are now under 21's or squad players for the future. Naughton I thought we paid over the odds for whilst jack corks transfer fee seemed good value. However as has been pointed out, these days it's what lies under the surface and away from our eyes that really costs.
There is no such thing as a free lunch, there is clearly no such thing as a free transfer or perhaps even a cheap transfer.
We need a re-evaluation of our whole transfer policy. In the past we signed players who fitted our style, and may not have fitted the style of the club they were at. These days I'm not so sure that we know what we are looking for.
Never mind rant over, finish my cider,and maybe have another one, then it's time to go home and go to sleep.
Tomorrow is another day. | | | |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 23:52 - Jan 27 with 1982 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 16:58 - Jan 27 by ExiledJack |
Indeed Millie, but Swansea haven't made those kinds of signings (and we're all grateful for that). A few minor missteps recently, but overall our transfer business has been brilliant and we couldn't have hoped for better.
The elephant in the room is where has the money gone? If all of our non-transfer income is completely absorbed by operating costs is that a sustainable path? More to the point, can we do better? We can offer players a unique opportunity to play in the world's most popular league, we shouldn't undersell our position and pay over the odds. |
With regards to where the money has gone don't forget the squad is currently valued at £75m to £80m. Take a look at our individual players and total value of our squad at transfermkt.co.uk. It also excludes £11m net for Shelvey (£12m - £1m to Liverpool).
After operating costs we have between £25m and £35m to spend on players depending on our finishing position. You then need to look at this over 4 year period - with regards to average length of players contracts.
This means each year 25% of the £25m to £35m depreciates away - unless you can eventually resell the player at equal or more than you have paid for him. If you let players contract run down will have no resale value - hence 100% depreciation.
This means you might have spent £120m over a 4 year period (4 X £30m) but on average £30m (25%) will be lost to this depreciation each and every year. So squad value probably maxs. out at £90m - which is not far off what transfermkt.co.uk values our squad at - if you add back Shelvey fee.
What also needs to be noted is that the accounts values club at £21m (the net asset value if all assets and liabilities were monetised) however this is only based on player valuations of £49.5m (as accounts only reflect what we have paid for players less depreciation and only downward revisions of player values - not upward revisions).
Therefore if you were to believe transfermkt.co.uk's valuations (and they do look reasonable) then club's accounts likely to be up to £40m undervalued.
This would take valuation of club to £61m (£21m + £90m - £49m).
One other material adjustment you then have to consider is £19.4m of signing on fees commitments that will be booked in the future - through accounts when players reach milestones (see note 26) - they were only £2.1m in last years accounts! (Ayew's signing on fee could be enormous - will also be explained by Jack Corks signing on fee and extending existing players contracts.
I would therefore estimate clubs worth at circa £42m (£61m - £19m) on a net asset basis I.e. If all assets and liabilities were monetised into cash - in contrast to an earnings multiple basis).
So club is not in too bad a position - the key issue is short term cashflow with £65m of creditors due within 1 year less short term assets and cash of £20m - so circa £45m to find in 1 year including a loan of £8m which may or may not be able to be rolled over. £37m of cash needed in 1 year if £8m can be rolled over.
The club will have £94m of income coming in less say costs of £70m so only £24m net (but this is for player transfers? So interesting how £37m of short term cash flow will be financed. If we stay up will have no problems - given guaranteed increase in TV money coming in next season.
The crucial thing is to manage short term cash so don't ever have to a fire sale of players. (For example having to sell £90m market value of players for £50m). | | | |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 12:12 - Jan 28 with 1863 views | trampie |
Can't believe how slow on the uptake posters are on here regarding the Swans financial state and football finances in general.
Its all relative like most things.
Swans financials are about the best in the league if not the World for a top flight football team.
Swans transfers both in and out over the last decade in general have been excellent.
Most transfers depreciate, not obvious to Swans fans because of how well Swans have done in the market.
Net profit or loss on transfers is one thing, signing on fees and wages is another, all other teams are in the same boat. |  |
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 12:44 - Jan 28 with 1842 views | Nookiejack |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 12:12 - Jan 28 by trampie |
Can't believe how slow on the uptake posters are on here regarding the Swans financial state and football finances in general.
Its all relative like most things.
Swans financials are about the best in the league if not the World for a top flight football team.
Swans transfers both in and out over the last decade in general have been excellent.
Most transfers depreciate, not obvious to Swans fans because of how well Swans have done in the market.
Net profit or loss on transfers is one thing, signing on fees and wages is another, all other teams are in the same boat. |
Yes agree with you Trampie and also other posters above that it is impossible to get every signing right. The Club has got a lot more signings right than wrong.
However can't though afford to get many signings wrong.
Strategically have to make a decision whether the academy can pay for itself. We haven't had many injuries this season and perhaps £5m to £10m spent on the academy (I can't tell this from the accounts) - could in other seasons be totally crucial in bringing in two proven £5m PL quality players in to strengthen the squad. The academy must be bringing through two to three players who are good enough to get into PL squad. There is no point in having an academy just for the sake of it.
The Commercial department is also crucial - do we really have market professionals running it? What is the profit and loss of the commercial department if you take the income generated less the costs of the staff. Is the Profit and Loss account of commercial department growing? How do we compare to similar PL clubs in the performance of the Commercial Department.
Again like the Academy the performance of the Commercial department is crucial over longer term - as can allow us again to maybe buy another two £5m players. Can maybe give us then more of a buffer - when in future we will get future player signings wrong - or pull off an amazing value for money signing like Michu - but that player then suffers a horrendous injury.
Here's the assessment of current value of each of our players = £75.95m and excludes Shelvey transfer. (+£12m less say -£1m to Liverpool).
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/swansea-city/startseite/verein/2288
Eder looks over valued at £4.2m but then maybe Montego undervalued at £3.85m. | | | |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 13:28 - Jan 28 with 1814 views | trampie |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 12:44 - Jan 28 by Nookiejack |
Yes agree with you Trampie and also other posters above that it is impossible to get every signing right. The Club has got a lot more signings right than wrong.
However can't though afford to get many signings wrong.
Strategically have to make a decision whether the academy can pay for itself. We haven't had many injuries this season and perhaps £5m to £10m spent on the academy (I can't tell this from the accounts) - could in other seasons be totally crucial in bringing in two proven £5m PL quality players in to strengthen the squad. The academy must be bringing through two to three players who are good enough to get into PL squad. There is no point in having an academy just for the sake of it.
The Commercial department is also crucial - do we really have market professionals running it? What is the profit and loss of the commercial department if you take the income generated less the costs of the staff. Is the Profit and Loss account of commercial department growing? How do we compare to similar PL clubs in the performance of the Commercial Department.
Again like the Academy the performance of the Commercial department is crucial over longer term - as can allow us again to maybe buy another two £5m players. Can maybe give us then more of a buffer - when in future we will get future player signings wrong - or pull off an amazing value for money signing like Michu - but that player then suffers a horrendous injury.
Here's the assessment of current value of each of our players = £75.95m and excludes Shelvey transfer. (+£12m less say -£1m to Liverpool).
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/swansea-city/startseite/verein/2288
Eder looks over valued at £4.2m but then maybe Montego undervalued at £3.85m. |
As regards academies they are hit and miss, you could go 10 years and barely produce a first team player and you could then get 1 every year for 3 or 4 years on the trot.
Producing a first team player when you are a Premier League team through your own system is not an exact science [I think champions are born and not made that is why you can go years without producing one, although having a good academy increases your chances and therefore is worthwhile].
A general blueprint for buying players and bucking the market and possibly making a profit is to buy players at 22/23, old enough that they might already be starting to prove themselves and therefore not a great risk and then sell them at 25/26 when they are at their peak for top dollar.
But the situation the Swans have found themselves in the last couple of years is they are an established Premier League team and they have tried to improve the squad year on year often with proven players that are established to get them to the next level.
Swans made good money on Bony and Shelvey buying them at a youngish age but they had already proved themselves, recently Swans signed Tabanou, Eder, Gomis, Fabianski, Ayew as they tried to go to the next level, the only one I would not have bought was Eder if I'm honest, looking at it from a football and financial point of view.
But as we know it seems like Tabanou never came off as well as Eder showing that all transfers are a risk.
Recognising value for money is something difficult to grasp or teach, a youngish footballer probably needs to settle into a new team, fit in with that teams pattern of play and with the likelihood of that player increasing in value or a cheap player who is old and who's wages are not great needs to perform on the pitch for the 2 or 3 years he has left to help the club gain riches through higher league position and possible better sponsorship deals as a result as well as helping to bring on and teach younger players.
There is a lot to transfer dealings and over the last decade or so the Swans have done well in this area [its all relative, compared to others], lets hope they continue to do so but as we know the Swans [or anyone else] wont get every transfer right, 50% successful transfers in hindsight is a good success rate on transfers I would say. [Post edited 28 Jan 2016 14:01]
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| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 22:19 - Jan 28 with 1697 views | Al_Bundy |
Think we need to see the youth set up producing players for the first team which will offset the transfer failed signings somewhat. | | | |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 07:29 - Jan 29 with 1622 views | Dr_Winston |
| Swans Trust Statement - Part 2 on 22:19 - Jan 28 by Al_Bundy |
Think we need to see the youth set up producing players for the first team which will offset the transfer failed signings somewhat. |
That all takes time. It's been less than four years since the first facilities were in place, and we haven't reached Academy One Status yet. Could be a decade before we see a regular supply of first team ready products. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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