| Migrant/Refugee crisis 11:04 - Sep 4 with 63923 views | Deano19766 |
Just a thought on this subject which is all over the news saying we are a disgrace and should do more to help -
Oxford English Dictionary definition of Refugee - "A person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster". So when a person flees their country for those reasons they are a refugee (and that is of course a terrible thing to happen to anyone and is yet another sad fact about humanity as a species). However, it could (and should) then be implied that once a 'refugee' passes through a 'safe' country then (s)he is no longer a refugee but a migrant, and most likely a migrant for economic reasons. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but all this rhetoric about taking in 'refugees' is completely misguided or a (deliberate?) misinterpretation of the facts IMO. If people wish to show their support for accommodating these people then that is of course their prerogative, but they should at least be clear that that they support accommodating 'economic migrants' as opposed to 'refugees' (although that would be far less sensationalist and may not suit their agenda). |  | | |  |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:04 - Sep 4 with 3767 views | londonscottish |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 13:12 - Sep 4 by bob566 |
We've upped it to 1800 now. Still not enough. |
We're taking more that twice as many to Craven Cottage |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:14 - Sep 4 with 3738 views | headhoops |
However you term them - refugees/economic migrants they are all human beings bought into a world with their own hopes, dreams and expectations. Most citizens of the UK will never have to live with the fear and horror that many of these people endure on a daily basis.
The UK has an opportunity to help as part of a unified Europe, of course we should be doing more, however, as per usual our politicians just see it as another opportunity to bash their cross party opponents.
I'm amazed at how easy the US & Russia are having it at the moment - both have done more than their fair share of destablisation in the region and should be far more accountable.
As to why those seeking help aim for the UK, simple, they speak our language as a legacy of our colonial past.
As an aside we really do have some very intelligent and articulate posters on this site. |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:20 - Sep 4 with 3693 views | Gloucs_R |
Proud of this thread. Balanced view with nobody being stupid so far, keep it up! |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:28 - Sep 4 with 3668 views | Juzzie |
I've said this before and will more than likely say it again in future threads... I have no problem with migration, no problem with refugee's but we must have the infrastructure to cope. We don't.
I too believe the government needs to go on a building programme (as was mentioned earlier after WWII) but I don't think they will.
Why? Because if supply starts to come in line with demand property prices will fall. Less Stamp Duty will come in and there will be millions of very angry voters who are now in negative equity. I firmly believe they knew exactly what they were doing when too many Polish etc were coming in 10 years ago. They knew over demand would drive up prices, drive up demand and most importantly, drive up Stamp Duty.
Even moreso as more people get dragged into the 3% bracket as property continues to rise. They should change the property value that falls into the 1% and 3% brackets as property prices change, but of course they won't as they rake in even more money.
(career) Politicians will not want to jeopardise the vast majority of their potential votes.
So, they will continue to let people in (fine) but will not provide the homes, the schools, the healthcare, 999 services and so on to cope. |  | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:30 - Sep 4 with 3654 views | Watford_Ranger |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:28 - Sep 4 by Juzzie |
I've said this before and will more than likely say it again in future threads... I have no problem with migration, no problem with refugee's but we must have the infrastructure to cope. We don't.
I too believe the government needs to go on a building programme (as was mentioned earlier after WWII) but I don't think they will.
Why? Because if supply starts to come in line with demand property prices will fall. Less Stamp Duty will come in and there will be millions of very angry voters who are now in negative equity. I firmly believe they knew exactly what they were doing when too many Polish etc were coming in 10 years ago. They knew over demand would drive up prices, drive up demand and most importantly, drive up Stamp Duty.
Even moreso as more people get dragged into the 3% bracket as property continues to rise. They should change the property value that falls into the 1% and 3% brackets as property prices change, but of course they won't as they rake in even more money.
(career) Politicians will not want to jeopardise the vast majority of their potential votes.
So, they will continue to let people in (fine) but will not provide the homes, the schools, the healthcare, 999 services and so on to cope. |
What % of tax revenue is stamp duty? A tiny amount I'd imagine. | | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:31 - Sep 4 with 3647 views | six_foot_two |
I was listening to a program this morning and a guy from amnesty stated that there were an estimated four million Syrian refugees in various camps, he said that Syria had a population of twenty two million many of whom will want to migrate if things continued as they are. This is before you factor in migrants from Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan , Bangladesh. Pakistan and the African sub Sahara.
If we accept 10,000 or 1million it will never be enough the whole demographic of Europe will change . |  | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:35 - Sep 4 with 3616 views | Juzzie |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:30 - Sep 4 by Watford_Ranger |
What % of tax revenue is stamp duty? A tiny amount I'd imagine. |
I think it's about to approach £10billion, the same as the previous high in 2007.
Sure, I do agree it's a small overall percentage (under 5% I think) but it's not an amount not to be sniffed at?
If what I have said is not an issue, why haven't the government built more homes? they've had decades to sort it out. | | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:57 - Sep 4 with 3534 views | toboboly |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 12:35 - Sep 4 by Konk |
Just out of interest, how many wars have you fought in and how often have you and your family had to live in a war zone? Personally, I don’t think I’d be that up for combat and I don’t think worrying every day about how I was going to find safety, food, water and shelter for my family, whilst witnessing death and destruction all around me would be that much of a lark either. I’d do what I could to get them to a safe, tolerant country.
A lot of posters on this board seem to come from Irish backgrounds — parents presumably economic migrants seeking a better life for them and their children — fair enough to me, and throw in the horrors of war and it should be obvious why after four years of war, people are desperate to leave the chaos of a failed state to seek some security. |
Absolutely none because my grandparents stood up for their rights and their country. In both world wars and the blitz. |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 15:07 - Sep 4 with 3486 views | hopphoops |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:57 - Sep 4 by toboboly |
Absolutely none because my grandparents stood up for their rights and their country. In both world wars and the blitz. |
While both my grandparents finished WW1 in POW camps and my father finished WW2 in the Guinea Pig Club, i wouldn't for a moment compare their situation to those of civilians who are likely to get Sarined by their Shia gov or raped and beheaded by mad Salafists as soon as they leave the house... |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 15:11 - Sep 4 with 3477 views | Konk |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 14:57 - Sep 4 by toboboly |
Absolutely none because my grandparents stood up for their rights and their country. In both world wars and the blitz. |
As did mine, but we weren't invaded and America pitching-in helped. Without conscription things might have been a bit different in terms of combat participation and you're not comparing apples with apples; UK v Germany was a pretty straight forward affair; your parents weren't living through a chaotic, civil-war with myriad armed groups, heavily armed, foreign religious extremists, a government that was bombing its own people, 4 years of street fighting, a lack of water and food (and I'm talking worse than rationing), almost nowhere to find sanctuary/shelter etc. I know people went through unbelievable hardships during the war, but kids could still be evacuated to the country etc. I dare say if there hadn't been conscription, a fair few folk would have thought about taking their families to the US, Canada, OZ and NZ rather than serving on the frontline. |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 15:24 - Sep 4 with 3431 views | toboboly |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 15:11 - Sep 4 by Konk |
As did mine, but we weren't invaded and America pitching-in helped. Without conscription things might have been a bit different in terms of combat participation and you're not comparing apples with apples; UK v Germany was a pretty straight forward affair; your parents weren't living through a chaotic, civil-war with myriad armed groups, heavily armed, foreign religious extremists, a government that was bombing its own people, 4 years of street fighting, a lack of water and food (and I'm talking worse than rationing), almost nowhere to find sanctuary/shelter etc. I know people went through unbelievable hardships during the war, but kids could still be evacuated to the country etc. I dare say if there hadn't been conscription, a fair few folk would have thought about taking their families to the US, Canada, OZ and NZ rather than serving on the frontline. |
We will have to agree to disagree.
Unfortunately I am completely jaded having worked for the last 10 years in the NHS, local government and education sectors seeing people get everything for nothing and people who work hard for things not being awarded. Whilst I am empathetic to their plight I don't feel that my family should have to pay for it.
Again I am very tired and jaded of these sorts of issues that seem absolutely constant nowadays. | |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 15:40 - Sep 4 with 3371 views | Discodroids |
i agree with Natalie ( n-n-n-nineteen ) Bennett of the green party that we should Accept 240,000 persons from Syria. One lefty Braniac on sky just now suggested they could settle in 'the vast expanse of scotland' . Excellent idea perhaps Emma Thompson and her labour luvvies can terra form various archipelagoes up there using their own self importance and harnessing the power of message board down arrows .
If only these Unfortunate Migrants could sustain themselves on The Baroque Banquet of Self Righteous progressive, high minded morality by left wing cnt pipers on the BBC .
Emma thompson flinging the word Racist round like john holmes 14" wang in' babyface', before Striding off with the grim determination and purpose of a cold war steroid induced East German 400 meter runner to Walthamstow village for celebratory Latte Made of Yak harry monk and a lech walesa cinnamon twirl.
IMO., Suspend freedom of movement for a designated period within the EU , and in return this country should accept these people from syria in the tens of thousands not hundreds. After all isnt freedom of movement within the EU simply for economic benefit. i.e there no wars in europe.
IVe been following events in Sweeden over the past few years as i have an uncle over there working for Nabisco
Mass migration has its problems there with a very liberal Government . I wouldnt dare tell you of one the unpalatable crimes that is now second only to south africa from being virtually unreported in Sweeden before they opened their arms to mass migration but you can guess im sure.
I expect my Elected Prime minister to be strong and make those unpopular decsions not make the easy one which appease the braying self righteous masses on sosial media in Green lantern t shirts from comic book fairs.
weak cameron. piss weak. |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 15:50 - Sep 4 with 3309 views | JAPRANGERS |
How many posters here will be opening their houses or flats to the refugees when they arrive?? The impression I get is that most will do so willingly. |  | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 15:52 - Sep 4 with 3299 views | FDC |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 11:53 - Sep 4 by toboboly |
My comment is in regards to that if they stood up to IS etc then they wouldn't need to be refugees and the situation would be sorted. Their country wouldn't be so ruined and I imagine there would be less deaths than trying to flee over thousands of miles.
I agree with you that once they decide to leave the first safe country they enter they aren't refugees but migrants and what they are doing is illegal. |
I think the Kurds of Rojava would be interested to hear that they weren't "standing up" to ISIS. The fact is Turkey has systematically undermined their struggle against ISIS.
The vast majority of refugees are in neighbouring countries. Britain has taken in about 160 Syrian refugees in the past 12 months. By population Britain is way down the list of countries taking in refugees.
As to the argument about people moving through countries to get somewhere that they perceive to be better - why on earth wouldn't you? People want to be able to work, to speak the language (i.e. English is most people's second language), and they want to live somewhere where they think they can achieve some kind of quality of life. Hungary has a weak economy and a poor record of treatment of immigrants. To argue that people should just accept their lot is nonsense. Why should they? |  | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 15:56 - Sep 4 with 3279 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 15:50 - Sep 4 by JAPRANGERS |
How many posters here will be opening their houses or flats to the refugees when they arrive?? The impression I get is that most will do so willingly. |
Me None, but apparently Singer Bob Geldof is the latest celebrity to offer a home to refugees. He told Ireland's RTE radio station he would house four Syrian families at his two homes in Britain.... yeah right. |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 16:12 - Sep 4 with 3221 views | Jamie |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 11:50 - Sep 4 by Konk |
Hungary currently rejects 90%+ of Asylum applications, so after spending several weeks/months in a camp, after risking life and limb and spending all your savings to get to Europe, you have a high chance of being sent back to Syria. If Germany, Austria and Sweden are willing to accommodate refugees, then surely it's common sense and human nature to try and get there rather than risk rejection or be settled in a country where the government has made it clear you're not welcome? And aside from where the refugees wish to go, isn't it unfair that Greece, Italy and countries in Eastern Europe shoulder the burden alone? This is a massively complicated tragedy, but with our role in destabilising the region, we surely have some responsibility. These are human beings - if the boot was on the other foot, I hope that people elsewhere would be willing to come to the aid of me and my family. |
The reason Hungary rejects 90+% of asylum claims is because those claiming asylum have no basis to do so. It's 'unfair' to Greece, Turkey & Italy, but the universal asylum rules state that it is applicable to the first country of safety that refugees enter.
The overwhelming majority of refugees are refusing to register here, and even paying gangs to remove their fingerprints, as if they register here, when they go on to Germany or Britain, their passage will be traced and 'asylum' claims rejected. There are thousands of genuine refugees grateful to accept the safety of Turkey, Italy, Greece, and then there are the thousands currently camped out in Budapest demanding their 'human right' to the very particular safety of Germany and Britain.
*edit* just to say as well, that those who come and here and claim asylum are treated very fairly indeed, they are housed in secure policed facilities, clothed & fed. However they are very strictly monitored whilst their cases are heard so that they cannot abscond, and returned to their country if asylum is rejected. Essentially what you would expect for desperate refugees.
These sensible and fair conditions are ironically why many want to reach Britain, as on top of being statistically far more likely to be granted 'asylum', they get a council residence, £35 per week per family member in cash, far looser monitoring and their infamous 'human rights'.. [Post edited 4 Sep 2015 16:34]
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 16:18 - Sep 4 with 3191 views | vblockranger |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 15:56 - Sep 4 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Me None, but apparently Singer Bob Geldof is the latest celebrity to offer a home to refugees. He told Ireland's RTE radio station he would house four Syrian families at his two homes in Britain.... yeah right. |
Bobs neighbors faces would have been a picture when he announced that :-) |  | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 16:20 - Sep 4 with 3172 views | johncharles |
The Syria, Libya, Iraq situation reminds me of a guy I knew years ago. He could fix anything. Piano, radio, Hi Fi ,grandfather clock, gas cooker, lawn mower. You couldn't stop him, he would take them apart but he could never put them back together again. |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 16:23 - Sep 4 with 3151 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 16:18 - Sep 4 by vblockranger |
Bobs neighbors faces would have been a picture when he announced that :-) |
Property values have dropped 30% already, if they keep falling he can buy a few up and take in a load more. | |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 16:29 - Sep 4 with 3113 views | vblockranger |
Thats a good idea that surely our politicians are looking in to. How about one of them Chinese ghost cities that they have built and left empty? infrastructure for a million people [Post edited 4 Sep 2015 16:30]
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 16:42 - Sep 4 with 3048 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 16:20 - Sep 4 by johncharles |
The Syria, Libya, Iraq situation reminds me of a guy I knew years ago. He could fix anything. Piano, radio, Hi Fi ,grandfather clock, gas cooker, lawn mower. You couldn't stop him, he would take them apart but he could never put them back together again. |
HAHA This is quality. Top comment! |  | | |
| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 17:15 - Sep 4 with 2941 views | BromleyHoop |
Your idea, on the face of it seems a bit crazy, if you don't mind me saying! However I think exceptional times call for exceptional measures and I think something very loosly along these lines could be considered.
The trouble is though, if you transported all these people to a 'super relocation' camp then the occupants would be made up of Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims, Turkish Kurds, Turks, Iraqi's, Yezidi's, Iraqi Kurds, Pro Assad Syrians, Anti Hezbollah Syrians, ex Islamic fighters, Secularists etc etc So Guess what would happen ??
Ultimately the whole area will remain a total cluster f#ck until its existing political boundaries are completely redrawn with religious, cultural and historical tribal loyalties taken into consideration which they weren't when the Brits and French carved the area up between themselves many many years ago. |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 17:46 - Sep 4 with 3712 views | Hayesender |
And meanwhile the rich Arab nations let in the grand total of zero refugees |  |
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 17:46 - Sep 4 with 3709 views | Juzzie |
All very well her standing at the top of the ramparts blaring out of a loudhailer telling anyone and everyone how bad it is but go on then big mouth... sort it out yourself. I bet you can't.
[Post edited 4 Sep 2015 17:51]
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| Migrant/Refugee crisis on 17:54 - Sep 4 with 3673 views | BromleyHoop |
I see the Czechs, Poles and Hungarians have now rejected an EU imposed quota system for taking migrants/ refugees. | |
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