| Give TF a break for f*** sake. 20:30 - Mar 7 with 3559 views | freddieeddie |
He is a lovely genuine fella i'd say and his heart is in the right place. He was badly let down by players last season which was a learning curve. If he said he was quitting then fine he would have let us down. All he keeps doing is reassuring us that he will stay and it will all take time. New training ground, new stadium, big name signings, who would ever thought of us getting Remy and Samba at the time.
I still feel so lucky to have him and trust him and I don't normally trust anyone.
He really puts his heart and soul into us. I can understand fans concerns what with the debt but we all just need to get behind him. |  |
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| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 00:21 - Mar 8 with 1144 views | EalingRanger |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 23:38 - Mar 7 by TheBlob |
Why else is anyone in business?Does the whole setup solely consist of philanthropists overflowing with the milk of human kindness?
Businessmen sometime f*ck up,but the nous that got them there in the first place is rarely lost and they recover equilibrium.As with Donald Trump. |
Happy for him to make money but I would like the arrangement to be mutually beneficial. If it isn't I don't see why he should be given a 'break' - I'm not overflowing with the milk of human kindness either. |  | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 00:45 - Mar 8 with 1122 views | newgolddream |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 20:49 - Mar 7 by freddieeddie |
You are just a typical clueless fan in my opinion. I take it you want HR out also? The guy is trying to make us successful, to do that on our crap crowds he needs to change the whole way the club and ground work. Seriously, I don't know what people want, I really don't. We'd of all settled for top six this season at the start and now the world is ending cos we have slipped a few places. Give me strength. |
Bookies had us at 2/1 on to win the championship. We r now 50/1.
I don't think we would have settled for top 6 in December. |  | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 09:35 - Mar 8 with 1065 views | TheBlob |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 00:21 - Mar 8 by EalingRanger |
Happy for him to make money but I would like the arrangement to be mutually beneficial. If it isn't I don't see why he should be given a 'break' - I'm not overflowing with the milk of human kindness either. |
Don't be so down on yourself.I'm sure you're extremely cuddly in real life.
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| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 10:03 - Mar 8 with 1062 views | Ingham |
Great thread, great posts, without disagreements and different points of view, there is no discussion, brilliant to read.
But it is surely mistaken to suppose that Fernandes has put any of his own money into the Club. If any 'investor' had ever done so, we would hear how Chris Wright was in debt, how Ecclestone, was in debt, how Mittal and Fernandes were in debt.
We are hearing, as usual, about the CLUB'S losses because it is the CLUB'S money that QPR is spending.
If you borrow £100 from a moneylender to put on a horse, and you win, the winnings are yours. If you the horse goes down, the loss is yours.
The lender's money is fine. You still owe it to him. As Fernandes has just admitted, though not in any way that indicates he understands even the most basic financial transactions. The money is owed TO HIM.
But the money the Club has squandered on these underperforming, overpaid clowns (I apologise to clowns for the comparison, don't phone your union), THAT has gone.
The players and the manager don't owe their money to QPR. But QPR owes £177 million to Fernandes and any other creditors.
And that is the deadly part. Because all that stuff he said about the long term, and his loyalty and love for QPR, sure, WE'RE supposed to believe it.
But does he? Why the loans, then? Why is he LENDING the money when he believes in the long term? When his relationship with the Club isn't - as some have doubted - a matter of disinterested emotional commitment.
If he really BELIEVES that the 40,000 stadium (down from 45,000 already) will see the cash pouring into the Club, why not arrange to recover whatever monies he has advanced OUT OF THE PROFITS?
Sure, to a businessman, just out to make money, as some deplorably sceptical supporters have even had the temerity to suggest (shame!  ), of COURSE he will make sure he gets his money back ...
... because he doesn't believe any such thing. He doesn't BELIEVE anything at all, or love anything at all (not in the realm of business). He is hard-headed, out for himself, and knows that he must say what he needs to say to protect HIS OWN investment.
If he was really doing what he, and maybe others, claim he is doing, what a clown he would look. QPR would be laughing. Sure, we would have done badly on the pitch, but it would be all HIS fault. And it would be HIS loss. HE would be down £177 million or whatever figure the Club has laid out.
Because that money is gone. The REAL financial wizards in football aren't the goons who lose their Clubs' money by the millions and hundreds of millions, but the geniuses who represent the PLAYERS. The Agents, accountants, the Professional Footballers' Association.
THEIR members wages have risen astronomically and constantly since the early sixties. Yet there is no more success around than there was then. Only one team ever wins any competition. In terms of competitiveness, the players do no more than they did in the 1950s, when they were lucky if they were on £20 a week.
Players and entire squads are raking in sums in a week most supporters would be glad to earn in a year. They can't pass the ball effectively, or score, or defend, or win, certainly hardly any of them ever win anything.
But they still come out richer and richer and richer. And the people responsible, who SUPPOSEDLY represent the Club, can't negotiate a contract where the players are paid REALISTICALLY. On the basis, just hypothetically, of what they are actually capable of earning for the Club. With their wages dependent on the Club's profitability, and a significant contributor to it.
And when was QPR last profitable? Never like this, that's for sure.
Football is not business. Compared to football, business isn't competitive at all. Your rivals don't come to your place of business, and as PART of your business activity - which our rival Clubs are - kick you all over the park to ensure that you can't get ANYTHING done. In business, you don't make one single elementary error and you're eliminated from this year's Cup competition (which QPR is with almost mechanical regularity).
You can have 90 businesses, all in the same arena, ALL successful. That is impossible in football, which is rigged from the outset so that only 1 can ever win, all the rest must lose.
In football, success is not a matter of opinion. So that if Briatore thinks he's a genius, well, he's in charge, so he must be. In football, it is gladiatorial. When you are crap, you are dead.
Except for one thing. The only people who put money INTO football clubs. The supporters. Not 'long-term' for 5 minutes, but for - what? 130 years is it now? The supporters NEVER expect to get a penny back. Nor do they expect to play, or to make the decisions.
Because they represent the best interests of the Club. We don't want to play, we want the best players to. We aren't part of the me, me, me that is directors and shareholders and players and managers. Pocket the cash, then clear off, like Wright, Thompson, Ecclestone, Briatore. Leaving the debts behind.
We can afford to be objective. They can't. When asked, they HAVE to say they're the best for the job, the Club will win, they will stay, they are loyal, they love QPR.
They don't. When the opportunities or the money change, they move on. There is nothing wrong with that. But there is no need to delude ourselves that their self-interested pragmatism is something it isn't. The supporters can AFFORD to put money in and not get it it out because there are so MANY, and because we are around SO LONG.
And because of that, we can afford to be realistic.
Fernandes must come out with nonsense. That the money is actually owed by Fernandes TO Fernandes, for example. Give me strength. If that is so, there's nothing at all in the Club's accounts. No debt whatsoever. The debt is in Fernandes's accounts. The loss is his, because it was HIS money which was paid to the players.
But in the same breath he tells us it isn't so. The money is owed by him. And the accounts tell us It is the Club's money, the Club's loss, and the Club's debt.
It is remarkable that the money Wright paid to Thompson, that £10 million, is STILL owed by QPR, what, nearly 20 years on. All these millionaires and billionaires who love the Club, where are they? any of them could easily have cleared that particular loss at any time. But even such a relatively small sum, nobody would touch it. It passed on from Thompson to Wright to Blackburn & Co, embodied in the ABC loan, and that loan was transferred to a company owned by Bhatia and Briatore or some other bunch, and as far as I know, it is still secured against Loftus Road.
If even what is a TINY sum of money to Ecclestone, still less Mittal, or even Fernandes, isn't cleared - because they 'love' QPR so much - why on earth would anyone imagine that they would lose £177 million of their own money?
And such sums aren't too small for them to care about. If Mittal didn't care about sums as small as £1, why has he so many of them? Why spend your life accumulating billions of £1s if they don't matter, and you don't care.
Anyway, just a brief contribution to a great discussion. It is impossible to get two supporters to agree on almost anything, so a wide range of even hotly contested opinions is part of the fun.
And we can always trust each other. We aren't ripping each other off. We aren't pocketing £100,000 a week and doing nothing to earn it, with a four year contract to go on doing so irrespective of whether we play or not, let alone play well, still less perform 'successfully'.
And as for 'profitably' .... yeah, football is a 'business' all right, and they're all doing the business on QPR.
We're OK. And that counts for a lot. Not one of these is worthy to lace Jim Gregory's boots, but let's face it, you wouldn't have trusted HIM as far as you could ...  | | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 10:13 - Mar 8 with 1028 views | Discodroid |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 10:03 - Mar 8 by Ingham |
Great thread, great posts, without disagreements and different points of view, there is no discussion, brilliant to read.
But it is surely mistaken to suppose that Fernandes has put any of his own money into the Club. If any 'investor' had ever done so, we would hear how Chris Wright was in debt, how Ecclestone, was in debt, how Mittal and Fernandes were in debt.
We are hearing, as usual, about the CLUB'S losses because it is the CLUB'S money that QPR is spending.
If you borrow £100 from a moneylender to put on a horse, and you win, the winnings are yours. If you the horse goes down, the loss is yours.
The lender's money is fine. You still owe it to him. As Fernandes has just admitted, though not in any way that indicates he understands even the most basic financial transactions. The money is owed TO HIM.
But the money the Club has squandered on these underperforming, overpaid clowns (I apologise to clowns for the comparison, don't phone your union), THAT has gone.
The players and the manager don't owe their money to QPR. But QPR owes £177 million to Fernandes and any other creditors.
And that is the deadly part. Because all that stuff he said about the long term, and his loyalty and love for QPR, sure, WE'RE supposed to believe it.
But does he? Why the loans, then? Why is he LENDING the money when he believes in the long term? When his relationship with the Club isn't - as some have doubted - a matter of disinterested emotional commitment.
If he really BELIEVES that the 40,000 stadium (down from 45,000 already) will see the cash pouring into the Club, why not arrange to recover whatever monies he has advanced OUT OF THE PROFITS?
Sure, to a businessman, just out to make money, as some deplorably sceptical supporters have even had the temerity to suggest (shame! ), of COURSE he will make sure he gets his money back ...
... because he doesn't believe any such thing. He doesn't BELIEVE anything at all, or love anything at all (not in the realm of business). He is hard-headed, out for himself, and knows that he must say what he needs to say to protect HIS OWN investment.
If he was really doing what he, and maybe others, claim he is doing, what a clown he would look. QPR would be laughing. Sure, we would have done badly on the pitch, but it would be all HIS fault. And it would be HIS loss. HE would be down £177 million or whatever figure the Club has laid out.
Because that money is gone. The REAL financial wizards in football aren't the goons who lose their Clubs' money by the millions and hundreds of millions, but the geniuses who represent the PLAYERS. The Agents, accountants, the Professional Footballers' Association.
THEIR members wages have risen astronomically and constantly since the early sixties. Yet there is no more success around than there was then. Only one team ever wins any competition. In terms of competitiveness, the players do no more than they did in the 1950s, when they were lucky if they were on £20 a week.
Players and entire squads are raking in sums in a week most supporters would be glad to earn in a year. They can't pass the ball effectively, or score, or defend, or win, certainly hardly any of them ever win anything.
But they still come out richer and richer and richer. And the people responsible, who SUPPOSEDLY represent the Club, can't negotiate a contract where the players are paid REALISTICALLY. On the basis, just hypothetically, of what they are actually capable of earning for the Club. With their wages dependent on the Club's profitability, and a significant contributor to it.
And when was QPR last profitable? Never like this, that's for sure.
Football is not business. Compared to football, business isn't competitive at all. Your rivals don't come to your place of business, and as PART of your business activity - which our rival Clubs are - kick you all over the park to ensure that you can't get ANYTHING done. In business, you don't make one single elementary error and you're eliminated from this year's Cup competition (which QPR is with almost mechanical regularity).
You can have 90 businesses, all in the same arena, ALL successful. That is impossible in football, which is rigged from the outset so that only 1 can ever win, all the rest must lose.
In football, success is not a matter of opinion. So that if Briatore thinks he's a genius, well, he's in charge, so he must be. In football, it is gladiatorial. When you are crap, you are dead.
Except for one thing. The only people who put money INTO football clubs. The supporters. Not 'long-term' for 5 minutes, but for - what? 130 years is it now? The supporters NEVER expect to get a penny back. Nor do they expect to play, or to make the decisions.
Because they represent the best interests of the Club. We don't want to play, we want the best players to. We aren't part of the me, me, me that is directors and shareholders and players and managers. Pocket the cash, then clear off, like Wright, Thompson, Ecclestone, Briatore. Leaving the debts behind.
We can afford to be objective. They can't. When asked, they HAVE to say they're the best for the job, the Club will win, they will stay, they are loyal, they love QPR.
They don't. When the opportunities or the money change, they move on. There is nothing wrong with that. But there is no need to delude ourselves that their self-interested pragmatism is something it isn't. The supporters can AFFORD to put money in and not get it it out because there are so MANY, and because we are around SO LONG.
And because of that, we can afford to be realistic.
Fernandes must come out with nonsense. That the money is actually owed by Fernandes TO Fernandes, for example. Give me strength. If that is so, there's nothing at all in the Club's accounts. No debt whatsoever. The debt is in Fernandes's accounts. The loss is his, because it was HIS money which was paid to the players.
But in the same breath he tells us it isn't so. The money is owed by him. And the accounts tell us It is the Club's money, the Club's loss, and the Club's debt.
It is remarkable that the money Wright paid to Thompson, that £10 million, is STILL owed by QPR, what, nearly 20 years on. All these millionaires and billionaires who love the Club, where are they? any of them could easily have cleared that particular loss at any time. But even such a relatively small sum, nobody would touch it. It passed on from Thompson to Wright to Blackburn & Co, embodied in the ABC loan, and that loan was transferred to a company owned by Bhatia and Briatore or some other bunch, and as far as I know, it is still secured against Loftus Road.
If even what is a TINY sum of money to Ecclestone, still less Mittal, or even Fernandes, isn't cleared - because they 'love' QPR so much - why on earth would anyone imagine that they would lose £177 million of their own money?
And such sums aren't too small for them to care about. If Mittal didn't care about sums as small as £1, why has he so many of them? Why spend your life accumulating billions of £1s if they don't matter, and you don't care.
Anyway, just a brief contribution to a great discussion. It is impossible to get two supporters to agree on almost anything, so a wide range of even hotly contested opinions is part of the fun.
And we can always trust each other. We aren't ripping each other off. We aren't pocketing £100,000 a week and doing nothing to earn it, with a four year contract to go on doing so irrespective of whether we play or not, let alone play well, still less perform 'successfully'.
And as for 'profitably' .... yeah, football is a 'business' all right, and they're all doing the business on QPR.
We're OK. And that counts for a lot. Not one of these is worthy to lace Jim Gregory's boots, but let's face it, you wouldn't have trusted HIM as far as you could ... |
"biblical"  [Post edited 8 Mar 2014 10:13]
|  |
| " I guess in four or five years, the new generation's music will be .. electronics, tapes. I can kind of envision .. maybe one person .. with a lot of machines, tapes, and electronics setups, singin or speaking .. and using machines " James Douglas Morrison | 1969 |
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| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 12:16 - Mar 8 with 1019 views | NW5Hoop |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 21:20 - Mar 7 by isawqpratwcity |
And you haven't the faintest idea how to get it right, have you?
Come on, keep Harry/sack Harry? Now or later? Who's going to replace him? Director of Football? Coaching staff? Lose expensive players, fill gaps in squad...And all of this has to be paid to be paid for after revenue.
And currently Fernandes and his mates are doing that to the tune of 65 mill last year.
If you've got a decent idea, TF might be pleased to hear it. Currently he's paying for his mistakes. |
It's unfair to ask someone what they would do if they were chairman: it's not their job to run a football club. It doesn't mean they have no right to an opinion. | | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 12:17 - Mar 8 with 1017 views | NW5Hoop |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 21:38 - Mar 7 by Northernr |
Ahhhh the old Steve Claridge argument - you haven't played the game so you can't criticise those that do. May as well close the message board in that case. |
Barton's argument, too. | | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 12:26 - Mar 8 with 1013 views | terryb |
Somebody asked why TF bought the club.
I would hazard a guess that it was to help to promote his other businesses & find a way to move them into the European market.
If he is sucessful with this, then the losses incurred with Queens Park Rangers would be short change.
I do believe that he has tried very hard to do the right thing for the club but has failed in this respect. He needs to change his advisors immediately.
We wouldn't have endured the current losses if he hadn't sanctioned the idiotic signings & transfers that Hughes & Redknapp have made. What would be wrong with avoiding relegation in the championship this season & playing youngsters?
It would have brought the supporters a lot closer to the club. At the mom,ent we are a million miles apart. | | | |
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| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 12:43 - Mar 8 with 999 views | Jamie |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 12:26 - Mar 8 by terryb |
Somebody asked why TF bought the club.
I would hazard a guess that it was to help to promote his other businesses & find a way to move them into the European market.
If he is sucessful with this, then the losses incurred with Queens Park Rangers would be short change.
I do believe that he has tried very hard to do the right thing for the club but has failed in this respect. He needs to change his advisors immediately.
We wouldn't have endured the current losses if he hadn't sanctioned the idiotic signings & transfers that Hughes & Redknapp have made. What would be wrong with avoiding relegation in the championship this season & playing youngsters?
It would have brought the supporters a lot closer to the club. At the mom,ent we are a million miles apart. |
TF didn't buy the club, he bought a club. Lest we forget that a few months before he'd grown up on the Uxbridge Road dreaming about Rangers, he'd been a die hard West Ham fan trying to buy his boyhood club.
The end game is the stadium/development and the money it could bring in with multi use sports sporting events and non-sporting events. It could be a goldmine making their £177m investment look like pocket change, but fail to get promotion this season and the first bit of non-rosy news about Old Oak and there will be some squeaky bums in the boardroom. | | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 13:12 - Mar 8 with 981 views | paulparker |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 12:43 - Mar 8 by Jamie |
TF didn't buy the club, he bought a club. Lest we forget that a few months before he'd grown up on the Uxbridge Road dreaming about Rangers, he'd been a die hard West Ham fan trying to buy his boyhood club.
The end game is the stadium/development and the money it could bring in with multi use sports sporting events and non-sporting events. It could be a goldmine making their £177m investment look like pocket change, but fail to get promotion this season and the first bit of non-rosy news about Old Oak and there will be some squeaky bums in the boardroom. |
Agee with Jamie
"uncle Tone" tried to buy West Ham as he knew on the QT that west ham would be looking to move to the Olympic stadium, why do you think sullivan & gold wouldn't sell to him, the potential for concerts development and a future buy out will be huge for west ham
so Tone then hears that a development of the new "canary wharf" maybe in the pipeline in west London so tone buys us, the new stadium, penthouses, businesses, the potential for concerts yada yada is a massive investment for "uncle tone" and his friends hence why the big outlay in players to make us an established prem club, all of the new development sounds great the only snag is Rangers languishing in the championship playing Doncaster with 12k crowds in a 40k stadium
Now all those naïve people giving it "leave tone alone" , "tony is the best" "he is a genuine bloke " etc need to have your heads examined
TF is a disaster zone at the moment everything he touches turns to s*it
for those saying what can he do & shouting down any fan who questions what the feck is going by saying stupid stuff like "why don't you put your money in "
TF for a shrewd business man should have come in and let Warnock have a season
but he didn't, he let Kia Jorahbchin come in and spread his cancer and tell him how great Hughes is etc , and this player is great buy him,
if he knows feck all about football than get a DOF or a Chief ex who does it aint rocket science
TF shouldn't be pally with players he let senior players get in his ear, so he listened and sacked Warnock, a stronger chairman is his own man
we are a horrible club at the moment we have no redeeming features and TF has had 3 years to sort things he hasn't , he has made things worse
but because he buys some of you half a larger in the bok he is the best chairman ever
still as long as he is learning from his mistakes that's all right |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 13:52 - Mar 8 with 954 views | johnnyl14 |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 23:32 - Mar 7 by QPR442 |
Sadly we have a few fans hell bent on moaning about our club/owners/manager.
If they can do better let them get their money out (and I'm not talking as a supporter) and buy the club. Otherwise let the people who run the club, run the club.
I said recently that we really do have some spoilt fans. |
Completely agrree. I would suggest that at the beginning of the season the majority of fans were looking for survival in the championship. It looks like due to our great start our minority fical fans expect us to walk away with this division. I have supported Rangers for 60 years now and it amazes me how impatient some of the younger fans are for success, if thats what you want Chelsea are just down the road.and thay are welcome to you. Be very afraid if your continued moaning at the board causes them to walk away. Then be prepared for 1st or 2nd division football for years to come. What more do these fans want TF has backed all his managers to the hilt , which he will be very wary in the future. The board have ongoing plans for new academy,training ground and stadium for what is still a small club, just dont understand these fans. | | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 14:49 - Mar 8 with 929 views | FDC |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 13:52 - Mar 8 by johnnyl14 |
Completely agrree. I would suggest that at the beginning of the season the majority of fans were looking for survival in the championship. It looks like due to our great start our minority fical fans expect us to walk away with this division. I have supported Rangers for 60 years now and it amazes me how impatient some of the younger fans are for success, if thats what you want Chelsea are just down the road.and thay are welcome to you. Be very afraid if your continued moaning at the board causes them to walk away. Then be prepared for 1st or 2nd division football for years to come. What more do these fans want TF has backed all his managers to the hilt , which he will be very wary in the future. The board have ongoing plans for new academy,training ground and stadium for what is still a small club, just dont understand these fans. |
And all the people saying stuff like this are missing the point spectacularly.
Not a single post on this message board that I've seen criticising TF and the club have done so because of where QPR sit in the table. |  | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 16:27 - Mar 8 with 895 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 21:38 - Mar 7 by Northernr |
Ahhhh the old Steve Claridge argument - you haven't played the game so you can't criticise those that do. May as well close the message board in that case. |
F*cking horsesh*t.
Everyone has to concede the only way TF has played this game is to put his hand into his pocket! |  |
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| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 17:14 - Mar 8 with 865 views | EalingRanger |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 16:27 - Mar 8 by isawqpratwcity |
F*cking horsesh*t.
Everyone has to concede the only way TF has played this game is to put his hand into his pocket! |
And it's worked wonderfully. | | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 17:42 - Mar 8 with 854 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 17:14 - Mar 8 by EalingRanger |
And it's worked wonderfully. |
No it hasn't. But him and his mates continue to fund this club, and until they don't, I'm on their side.
Who else is going to step up?
Huh? | |
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| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 18:23 - Mar 8 with 826 views | Jamie |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 17:42 - Mar 8 by isawqpratwcity |
No it hasn't. But him and his mates continue to fund this club, and until they don't, I'm on their side.
Who else is going to step up?
Huh? |
Nobody now as they've dug a £177m sized hole. | | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 18:50 - Mar 8 with 803 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 18:23 - Mar 8 by Jamie |
Nobody now as they've dug a £177m sized hole. |
So hang on, it might be a bumpy ride... | |
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| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 19:00 - Mar 8 with 790 views | bosh67 |
The debt is to the shareholders. The club is not worth enough to call the debt in. If the club was already over £100m in debt before this last set of figures, running this club at a profit is not an issue. Remember that it is probably only part of a much bigger portfolio for these guys. They will all be making a heap of money elsewhere so if this is the three legged horse in the stable and they can't make it into glue then right now it is a profit and tax offset against the rest of their portfolio.
In which case £177m loss is probably a nice little tax offset against other profits in their portfolio. Also, we have to consider why these guys are running a football team. To make money? No. To position a set of brands, more likely. To entertain in terms of bigger fish and bigger rewards outside football, almost certainly.
There has been some crazy stuff going on at our club. A bunch of lunatic F1 blokes who hired and fired everyone, spent next to nothing, hawked up the ticket prices and kicked loyal fans out of their seats - and who cruised to promotion. Then sold the deal on to someone who threw the kitchen sink at it and made a big loss - so far. However, is TF a mug? Unlikely.
Can £177m loss ever become a profit? Probably not and only if the football part becomes a part of a much bigger QPR sports brand. IMHO. |  |
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| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 19:29 - Mar 8 with 772 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 19:00 - Mar 8 by bosh67 |
The debt is to the shareholders. The club is not worth enough to call the debt in. If the club was already over £100m in debt before this last set of figures, running this club at a profit is not an issue. Remember that it is probably only part of a much bigger portfolio for these guys. They will all be making a heap of money elsewhere so if this is the three legged horse in the stable and they can't make it into glue then right now it is a profit and tax offset against the rest of their portfolio.
In which case £177m loss is probably a nice little tax offset against other profits in their portfolio. Also, we have to consider why these guys are running a football team. To make money? No. To position a set of brands, more likely. To entertain in terms of bigger fish and bigger rewards outside football, almost certainly.
There has been some crazy stuff going on at our club. A bunch of lunatic F1 blokes who hired and fired everyone, spent next to nothing, hawked up the ticket prices and kicked loyal fans out of their seats - and who cruised to promotion. Then sold the deal on to someone who threw the kitchen sink at it and made a big loss - so far. However, is TF a mug? Unlikely.
Can £177m loss ever become a profit? Probably not and only if the football part becomes a part of a much bigger QPR sports brand. IMHO. |
Welcome, reasonable opinion. | |
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| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 18:37 - Mar 10 with 699 views | Ingham |
Very interesting posts.
But I don't think it is correct to suggest that the basis for an investor's involvement with QPR is the positioning of the Club in the investor's portfolio as a whole, or its value for tax purposes across the range of the investor's interests. First, because I think such things are marginal, and secondary, and secondly, and more practically, because nobody actually knows what that means.
The proper analogy is with buying and selling a house. And in the same way, the Club is neither worthless, nor is it wrong to say that the homeowner doesn't make money from the deal. He MIGHT not make the profit he would like to, and he might not make any profit at all, in certain circumstances, but that is not the same as to say that he INVESTS in it on that basis.
It is not the case that the debt the homeowner incurs is meaningless, of no practical significance, or uncollectable, merely because the HOUSE can't be expected to pay it. The house doesn't pay the homeowner's debt, but the value of the house does. And the football Club doesn't pay off the 'investor's' debt - but the value of the Club does.
In the case of the house, the value is set, more or less, by the market, let's say. And in the case of QPR, it is set by how much the seller is prepared to accept - and the buyer is prepared to pay - for the seller's shareholding.
THAT is how the 'investor' makes money out of the deal, as the Thompson and Ecclestone deals indicate. And big money, too.
In each instance - the house and the football club - it is the money from the buyer that pays off the seller. And the seller dumps the loan back on the Club as Wright dumped the £10 million he paid Thompson back on the Club as debt. A debt which siphoned £10 million in interest out of QPR on top of the original £10 million loan.
That, of course, is another way that investors make money out of the Club. Wright charged interest on his loans too. But he also did what Fernandes is proposing, and Gregory, Bulstrode and Marler also proposed. Something which is part and parcel of the property market, but which is an added attraction in the case of a football club.
He proposed to sell off the Ground. Wright actually did it at Wasps. He wanted to sell off LR, as did Gregory, while Marler wanted to sell the twin plums of Craven Cottage and Stamford Bridge. And, not to be outdone, Thompson later proposed selling off Griffin Park 'just to make money' as he candidly admitted (after his time with us).
So QPR is worth a lot. Like most homes. And, like most homes, what the buyer is prepared to pay is limited by the nature of the property he is buying.
Which, I would suggest, is why QPR's debt isn't £1 billion, like Chelsea's, or City's. Because QPR isn't WORTH that much. These are Clubs with much bigger support historically (80,000 plus at its maximum). And it is the bigger Clubs who cluster in the Champions League, just as more valuable houses are bigger, or in Belgravia or Knightsbridge or Kensington.
Which means there is a ceiling on 'investment'. The idea that Ecclestone and Briatore might make QPR another Chelsea in terms of spending, as some briefly imagined, I think, was answered most definitely with a 'no' by the individuals concerned.
It was the cosmetic fiddling with QPR which they indulged in, and which was touted as being somehow important - the badge, the brand, the coat of paint, the screen, the 'boutique' style.
THAT, in my opinion, is what is worthless. But it is only one opinion, after all. And they are all very worthwhile to read and consider. After all, supporters have a lifetime, each of them as a rule, of watching and thinking and learning and understanding about football and particularly QPR.
Compared to us, investors are nothing. | | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 19:03 - Mar 10 with 683 views | stansleftfoot |
"Compared to us, investors are nothing"
This sums up the fantasy that most Football Fan's live in. The fan is merely a conduit through which a small proportion on income is driven, in QPR's case the support is such that it cannot support a competitive Championship side, let alone a Premiership side.
The debt that TF, PB and various Managers have created, when measured on the current turnover, is clearly huge and unsustainable. It is only the investors who make up the cash that pays the bills. The fans contribution is merely that,a contribution, its almost as if Football Fans have become a back-drop to the televised game as a marketing process. Elsewhere in the world it's different, only the UK has given up it's Footballing soul to Sky and TV.
What the Balance sheet does not and cannot do, currently, is put a value on the potential of Warren Farm as a 100 or 200 year lease, and outline planning permission for a 40K or 45K Multi Purpose venue at Old Oak.
Those assets only become realisable because of the Councils covenant on Loftus Road. As soon as QPR have created the permissions to leave Loftus Road the £20 Million valuation goes through the roof.
The investors are in for the long term so that the developmental assets that QPR have opened up can be realised. The Football Club is merely an overhead, it's been expensive so far but we'll not see much cash thrown around from here on in terms of players or high profile managers.
TF is an experienced businessman and is investing as much effort and cash in the QPR fan's as their value seems to demand.
The Investor is everything, the fan is merely an overhead. | | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 20:59 - Mar 10 with 654 views | wood_hoop |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 19:03 - Mar 10 by stansleftfoot |
"Compared to us, investors are nothing"
This sums up the fantasy that most Football Fan's live in. The fan is merely a conduit through which a small proportion on income is driven, in QPR's case the support is such that it cannot support a competitive Championship side, let alone a Premiership side.
The debt that TF, PB and various Managers have created, when measured on the current turnover, is clearly huge and unsustainable. It is only the investors who make up the cash that pays the bills. The fans contribution is merely that,a contribution, its almost as if Football Fans have become a back-drop to the televised game as a marketing process. Elsewhere in the world it's different, only the UK has given up it's Footballing soul to Sky and TV.
What the Balance sheet does not and cannot do, currently, is put a value on the potential of Warren Farm as a 100 or 200 year lease, and outline planning permission for a 40K or 45K Multi Purpose venue at Old Oak.
Those assets only become realisable because of the Councils covenant on Loftus Road. As soon as QPR have created the permissions to leave Loftus Road the £20 Million valuation goes through the roof.
The investors are in for the long term so that the developmental assets that QPR have opened up can be realised. The Football Club is merely an overhead, it's been expensive so far but we'll not see much cash thrown around from here on in terms of players or high profile managers.
TF is an experienced businessman and is investing as much effort and cash in the QPR fan's as their value seems to demand.
The Investor is everything, the fan is merely an overhead. |
Your always going to get those with the largesse and vanity to pay players excessive amounts, cant for the life of me think why paying way over the odds will guarentee success, most of these 'investors' from their other business interests fully expect their staff to use their skills to increase the profit margins and get short shrift if they dont, that's from the top management down.
'Investors' have become a curse to a wonderful 'sport' and it breaks my heart to see how jaded and infested with loathsome people it has become, always been the odd shyster in the game looking to make a buck or two but the game has really sunk to a low when investors are considered the life blood of a club rather than the real heart of any club, the supporter.
I think my time of loving the game really is coming to an end, even the World Cup in the home of the greatest exponents of the game is riddled with corruption claims and the actual football is given less 'press' than whether the stadiums will be ready on time, supported of course by the biggest exponents of corruption you will ever see in the game, the adodarable 'guardians' of the sport the one and only FIFA.
If TF is now considered by some fans more important than me, just a mere supporter for over forty years, then our club really has hit rock bottom. |  | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 23:17 - Mar 10 with 617 views | distortR |
I don't dislike Fernandes, but his dream isn't mine, I quite liked qpr as they were, where they were.But then I rarely go anymore. My problem with him is that the ridiculous debt he has run up means that we can only ever belong to him and his associates now. I long for us to be supporter owned. That can never happen. | | | |
| Give TF a break for f*** sake. on 11:34 - Mar 11 with 574 views | Ingham |
The fans are an overhead?
And this is realistic?
And it is a real overhead? And in the real - soberly realistic - world of Fernandes, we can put a figure on this overhead in the Club's accounts?
Seriously? As an OVERHEAD?
OK. And on this analysis, the Board, being sensible and realistic businessmen the Board are doing everything to keep this overhead DOWN?
Well, yes, that makes sense.
A catastrophic season in the top flight, a record run without a win, vast losses, record levels of debt, relegation, and less than stellar performances in the second tier.
To me, in an unrealistic way, I would see this as a good way of keeping support down, and decreasing that particular overhead.
But isn't Fernandes proposing to INCREASE it? All right, he doesn't need support to build a 40,000 capacity stadium, just a lot of empty seats. But at the stated cost of £200 million, but it doesn't strike me as the most obvious or the most efficient way to reduce the supporter overhead.
And that is £200 million on top of the current £177 million losses.
Of course, normally, we might take it that this huge amphitheatre would constitute a correspondingly huge ASSET. And THAT would appear in the accounts, wouldn't it?
But the Club won't own it, unfortunately. Although, as a 'tenant' - Beard's expression, I believe - we might reasonably assume that it will PAY for it. That is what a tenant usually does. Pays the Landlord's mortgage, and then some.
But that raises another problem, surely. Why, if the supporters are an overhead, did Fernandes's fellow 'investors', Mittal and Bhatia, support the massive price increases the previous incarnation of the regime imposed?
When you say the supporters are an overhead, is that what you mean? And, since those price increases, they constitute an even BIGGER one?
Well, it is certainly an interesting take on things. I must confess I never saw ticket price rises as a way of increasing the OVERHEAD before.
But perhaps I am being a little too literal? And it is just another way of saying the supporters are a liability.
And that is exactly what Fernandes and his pals actually think of us.
Very worthwhile and thought-provoking contribution to the debate. | | | |
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