| Second BREXIT Referendum 16:30 - Dec 21 with 3384 views | johnlangy |
Time to put your thinking cap on again ohl  .
In my 'Thank You Nigel Farage' thread I suggested that Reform are going to have a huge bearing on the result of the next General Election. This thread is about the thought that things could go the completely opposite way.
One thing we know for certain (there's not many times you can say that in politics) is that Reform, aka Nigel Farage, are not going to stand on a platform of holding a second Brexit referendum at the next GE. Kemi Badenoch is a brexiteer so that rules out the Torys, at least while she's the leader.
So what if Labour does ? When a second ref has been talked about before now the general consensus has been that it's too early, that Brexit has to be given time to see how it works. If Labour do offer a second ref at the next GE and they win again the referendum probably wouldn't happen till at least 2032. So that would mean sixteen years after the first one. No one could argue that that is not enough time to see if Brexit was working or not.
And what would be the result. As far as i'm aware every single poll that has been taken over the last few years on how people would vote in another ref has shown a substantial majority for rejoining (in May it was 55% wrong to leave with 31% saying it was right to leave). And that majority will only get bigger. In the first ref it was mostly older people who voted to leave while younger people voted to remain. And there's only one way that different demography is going to change.
Over the next few years we may get caught up in a Trade war if Trump does follow up on his ideas about tarrifs. So little old UK would be stuck between the USA and the EU in that battle. And Labour will be in the perfect position to use that as an argument to rejoin especially as they'll have been working with the EU for a few years at that time trying to improve the current Brexit deal.
Another side benefit to Labour, who are a very pro Union party, is that a rejoin vote may also see off Scotlands fight for Indy. Just a thought. |  | | |  |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 18:59 - Dec 22 with 1089 views | johnlangy |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 18:32 - Dec 22 by SullutaCreturned |
Points well made, I cannot argue against them. All I can do is say the same things that applies to all of us, we'll have to wait and see.
For all the predictions that have been, or will be made on this forum, all any of us can do is wait and see.
Personally, I largely agree with Gwyn on this, we could and should have a better relationship with the EU and it is possible but there is one very big thing that needs to happen to mkae that possible....politicians on both sides need to start acting in the best interests of the people and stop acting out of self interest. |
Points well made by you cat as well.
Labour are starting the process of building those better relationships and that may well lead to them looking to go a huge stage further, ie the second ref. If they think it's a vote winner we all know how it will go.
The last part about politicians working in our best interests ! A concept i'm not familiar with. Sorry. | | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 19:25 - Dec 22 with 1054 views | Whiterockin |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 18:32 - Dec 22 by SullutaCreturned |
Points well made, I cannot argue against them. All I can do is say the same things that applies to all of us, we'll have to wait and see.
For all the predictions that have been, or will be made on this forum, all any of us can do is wait and see.
Personally, I largely agree with Gwyn on this, we could and should have a better relationship with the EU and it is possible but there is one very big thing that needs to happen to mkae that possible....politicians on both sides need to start acting in the best interests of the people and stop acting out of self interest. |
Europe was never going to make it easy for us when we left, the last thing they wanted was a prosperous UK after leaving, there would be no EU everyone would have left. The EU is in decline in many ways, they would be willing to negotiate better deals now because they need them. Realistically we need to review in 10 years time to see where we are, the EU is changing. |  | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 19:30 - Dec 22 with 1038 views | waynekerr55 |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 15:18 - Dec 22 by onehunglow |
You ok now Wayne
Best for the festive season
It’ll soon be over  |
Back on my feet and first gym session on Thursday
Hope to get 3 in this week
Festive greetings to you and Maggie my chum |  |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 21:00 - Dec 22 with 983 views | onehunglow |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 19:30 - Dec 22 by waynekerr55 |
Back on my feet and first gym session on Thursday
Hope to get 3 in this week
Festive greetings to you and Maggie my chum |
Et tu Brutus | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 01:08 - Dec 23 with 898 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 18:43 - Dec 22 by SullutaCreturned |
In which case, anybody who lives, works and contributes to the UK is British, you may well have a different view but to deny that would be hypocrisy, we all pay our income tax to Westminster. |
Well no.
The correct extrapolation relates to England, Scotland, and whole of the island of Ireland.
Britain is an outdated politcal union, imposed originally by force of arms.
Your passport, your taxes, and your BBC reflect that fact.
I was talking about nations, like Wales. |  |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 09:05 - Dec 23 with 856 views | Boundy |
You only have to go back 80 odd years ago some German military maps of the era didn't even have Wales marked on their maps | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 18:29 - Dec 24 with 727 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 01:08 - Dec 23 by Kilkennyjack |
Well no.
The correct extrapolation relates to England, Scotland, and whole of the island of Ireland.
Britain is an outdated politcal union, imposed originally by force of arms.
Your passport, your taxes, and your BBC reflect that fact.
I was talking about nations, like Wales. |
Well the UK is the only Sovereign nation and the 4 members of that union are there with the blessing of the majorities of their electorate, none of the 4 nations has yet had a majority demanding to leave so unsurprisingly, you are wrong again...oh and a hypocrite too.
How many nations can you name that didn't come about by force of arms?
AHhhh, you were talking about nations, well the UK is a nation, a siovereign nation recognised by and a member of the United Nations, which Wales is not. | | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 20:45 - Dec 25 with 640 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 09:05 - Dec 23 by Boundy |
You only have to go back 80 odd years ago some German military maps of the era didn't even have Wales marked on their maps |
Ignoring the obvious question about why anybody might want to study 80 year old Nazi maps, i will ask a secondary question instead - why do you think the German maps were so incorrect ? | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 00:29 - Dec 26 with 610 views | Boundy |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 20:45 - Dec 25 by Kilkennyjack |
Ignoring the obvious question about why anybody might want to study 80 year old Nazi maps, i will ask a secondary question instead - why do you think the German maps were so incorrect ? |
Why would anyone continue to bang on about some mythical Welsh Prince from 400 years ago or a referendum 8 years ago or "I guess hundreds of years of government inspired hostility might not of helped a great deal ".
The german maps were incomplete but maybe they considered Wales a non entity , although despite bombing Swansea & Cardiff , maybe they were just off loading bombs to escape the night fighters and the towns was just unlucky. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 08:12 - Dec 26 with 589 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 18:29 - Dec 24 by SullutaCreturned |
Well the UK is the only Sovereign nation and the 4 members of that union are there with the blessing of the majorities of their electorate, none of the 4 nations has yet had a majority demanding to leave so unsurprisingly, you are wrong again...oh and a hypocrite too.
How many nations can you name that didn't come about by force of arms?
AHhhh, you were talking about nations, well the UK is a nation, a siovereign nation recognised by and a member of the United Nations, which Wales is not. |
The people of Wales have never voted to join the UK.
The people Ireland voted out but the agreement was gerrymandered to created a unionist enclave we now are told to call Northern Ireland.
The UK govt themselves as recently as 2024 created the following:
Council of the Nations and Regions: Inaugural meeting on 11 October 2024.
Now why would the uk govt call its own council ‘the Council of Nations’ if it did not accept that Wales, Scotland and England are nations ?
You are wrong with bells on.
Of course those nations act as a political union as a uk state for things like nato and the un. It does not make them not nations.
I know you find this hard to process.
Try turning the bbc off …? | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 08:16 - Dec 26 with 586 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 00:29 - Dec 26 by Boundy |
Why would anyone continue to bang on about some mythical Welsh Prince from 400 years ago or a referendum 8 years ago or "I guess hundreds of years of government inspired hostility might not of helped a great deal ".
The german maps were incomplete but maybe they considered Wales a non entity , although despite bombing Swansea & Cardiff , maybe they were just off loading bombs to escape the night fighters and the towns was just unlucky. |
You appear to be asking me to justify Nazi actions. Mad.
Wales was a nation before WWII, during WWII, and after WWII.
I am not sure why you cant understand this very simple concept ? | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 11:09 - Dec 26 with 539 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 08:16 - Dec 26 by Kilkennyjack |
You appear to be asking me to justify Nazi actions. Mad.
Wales was a nation before WWII, during WWII, and after WWII.
I am not sure why you cant understand this very simple concept ? |
Simple because Walae has never been a sovereign state let alone a nation. Was made up of several tribal areas in Roman times and after the Romans sone of the tribal areas merged to become larger areas control by Princes. Was like the rest of Europe Post Roman when countries as such did not exist. Place like Spain France formed as several smaller kingdoms were either invaded or agreed to be one. Germany Italy and Greece did not become nations until as late as the 19th Century.
Some people believe the mythical histories and legends rather than the facts. The areas of Wales did not even become well populated until the industrial revolution when mass migration started. | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 11:16 - Dec 26 with 537 views | AnotherJohn |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 08:12 - Dec 26 by Kilkennyjack |
The people of Wales have never voted to join the UK.
The people Ireland voted out but the agreement was gerrymandered to created a unionist enclave we now are told to call Northern Ireland.
The UK govt themselves as recently as 2024 created the following:
Council of the Nations and Regions: Inaugural meeting on 11 October 2024.
Now why would the uk govt call its own council ‘the Council of Nations’ if it did not accept that Wales, Scotland and England are nations ?
You are wrong with bells on.
Of course those nations act as a political union as a uk state for things like nato and the un. It does not make them not nations.
I know you find this hard to process.
Try turning the bbc off …? |
You have been told the answers more than once. Labour is very unlikely to push for an early return to the EU because the economic framework set out in the treaties includes a system of surveillance and control that means the EU steps in when national debt gets too high. UK public debt was 101.3% of GDP in 2023 and is rising now thanks to Rachel's new fiscal rules.. The EU requirement up until now is that national debt should not exceed 60% of GDP and the annual deficit by over 3% of GDP, so we will soon be getting into similar territory to Ireland (about 120%) when the EU imposed the excessive deficit procedure. Actually France and Italy are in such dire straits that it is surprising that they have so far managed to avoid EU intervention, but France for one is worried this will happen.,
https://www.connexionfrance.com/news/how-does-frances-public-debt-compare-with-t
Perhaps for this reason, a new EU country-specific debt sustainability analyses (DSA) to determine debt limits is about to be introduced, although the numerical % target is still being taken into account for now. The situation of Wales and Scotland would be even more dodgy than that of England. Do we really want a supra-national body stepping in to impose austerity policies? | | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 12:13 - Dec 26 with 498 views | Boundy |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 08:12 - Dec 26 by Kilkennyjack |
The people of Wales have never voted to join the UK.
The people Ireland voted out but the agreement was gerrymandered to created a unionist enclave we now are told to call Northern Ireland.
The UK govt themselves as recently as 2024 created the following:
Council of the Nations and Regions: Inaugural meeting on 11 October 2024.
Now why would the uk govt call its own council ‘the Council of Nations’ if it did not accept that Wales, Scotland and England are nations ?
You are wrong with bells on.
Of course those nations act as a political union as a uk state for things like nato and the un. It does not make them not nations.
I know you find this hard to process.
Try turning the bbc off …? |
Another example of many of you stuck in the past , move on FFS it's sad to watch | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 13:25 - Dec 26 with 451 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 08:16 - Dec 26 by Kilkennyjack |
You appear to be asking me to justify Nazi actions. Mad.
Wales was a nation before WWII, during WWII, and after WWII.
I am not sure why you cant understand this very simple concept ? |
The primary policies of the Nazi party was to overthrow and punish perceived oppressors and reunite the Germanic peoples into a single nation where their culture and nationality can be accepted and celebrated for a thousand years.
Your long posting history suggests you support a lot of their basic principles? |  |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 18:48 - Dec 26 with 390 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 08:12 - Dec 26 by Kilkennyjack |
The people of Wales have never voted to join the UK.
The people Ireland voted out but the agreement was gerrymandered to created a unionist enclave we now are told to call Northern Ireland.
The UK govt themselves as recently as 2024 created the following:
Council of the Nations and Regions: Inaugural meeting on 11 October 2024.
Now why would the uk govt call its own council ‘the Council of Nations’ if it did not accept that Wales, Scotland and England are nations ?
You are wrong with bells on.
Of course those nations act as a political union as a uk state for things like nato and the un. It does not make them not nations.
I know you find this hard to process.
Try turning the bbc off …? |
Actually I'm not wrong it'sjust your inability to comprehend, AGAIN.
I said the UK is a sovereign state and a member of the United Nations, which Wales is not, that is 100% a fact.
I have accepted Wales is a nation but you seem capable of understanding the difference between that and being a sovereign nation, oh and a member of the United Nations.
And your first line yet again....Wales is a member of the UK by agreement of the people who vote in elections and therefore give Westminster a mandate to govern the UK of which Wales is a part. A majority has not, in living memory and for much longer, demanded a referenda on leaving the UK. We doidn't vote to join and we haven't even asked for a vote to leave.
Now this Irish thing, you are also very wrong there, try this link - rochester.edu/newscenter/partition-of-ireland-explained-477342/
The partition was the result of the Anglo-Irish Treaty of December 1921, which ended the Irish War of Independence. The treaty also established the Boundary Commission, which was tasked with reviewing the border and deciding if it was in the right place.
So which gerrymandering are you talking about? | | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 21:43 - Dec 26 with 323 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 12:13 - Dec 26 by Boundy |
Another example of many of you stuck in the past , move on FFS it's sad to watch |
Bit rich coming from a bloke who posts from 1974. | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 21:50 - Dec 26 with 319 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 13:25 - Dec 26 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
The primary policies of the Nazi party was to overthrow and punish perceived oppressors and reunite the Germanic peoples into a single nation where their culture and nationality can be accepted and celebrated for a thousand years.
Your long posting history suggests you support a lot of their basic principles? |
The Nazi party is fairly obviously extreme far right, 🤡, the same political wing as Thatcher, Trump, Johnson, and Farage.
People like me are the opposite …. progressive and left wing.
The modern world is not for you….. | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 02:01 - Dec 27 with 278 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 21:50 - Dec 26 by Kilkennyjack |
The Nazi party is fairly obviously extreme far right, 🤡, the same political wing as Thatcher, Trump, Johnson, and Farage.
People like me are the opposite …. progressive and left wing.
The modern world is not for you….. |
They were nationalists. As are you. Nationalism is always considered very much the domain of the right. No matter how you attempt to hide from it. You are right wing. And a lot further right than most. | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 14:15 - Dec 27 with 197 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 02:01 - Dec 27 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
They were nationalists. As are you. Nationalism is always considered very much the domain of the right. No matter how you attempt to hide from it. You are right wing. And a lot further right than most. |
And just like the Nazi's, he cannot understand why he is wrong.
He cannot even accept the facts as being true and posts his own version of things as if they are true.
I think he's a left wing fascist  | | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 18:54 - Dec 27 with 161 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 02:01 - Dec 27 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
They were nationalists. As are you. Nationalism is always considered very much the domain of the right. No matter how you attempt to hide from it. You are right wing. And a lot further right than most. |
You clearly do not know the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
People who love Wales dont hate anyone.
They just want equality for Wales.
Its the Britnat nationalists who think they are better than other nations. | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 18:55 - Dec 27 with 158 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 14:15 - Dec 27 by SullutaCreturned |
And just like the Nazi's, he cannot understand why he is wrong.
He cannot even accept the facts as being true and posts his own version of things as if they are true.
I think he's a left wing fascist |
And i think you are a bit twp to be honest.
Poor dab. | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 20:07 - Dec 27 with 146 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 18:54 - Dec 27 by Kilkennyjack |
You clearly do not know the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
People who love Wales dont hate anyone.
They just want equality for Wales.
Its the Britnat nationalists who think they are better than other nations. |
Just out of interest in which way is wales not equal? When you say equal I can only assume you mean in relation to England? So in your expert opinion what laws does the uk government have that means wales is not equal? | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 20:09 - Dec 27 with 144 views | onehunglow |
Not much wrong with being stuck in the coast.
Looking at today’s shyteshow …. | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 21:05 - Dec 27 with 121 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 20:07 - Dec 27 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Just out of interest in which way is wales not equal? When you say equal I can only assume you mean in relation to England? So in your expert opinion what laws does the uk government have that means wales is not equal? |
Decisions for Wales should be made in wales by welsh people.
Thats just normal.
Currently majority of decisions for Wales are decided in London, England.
Majority non-Welsh MPs voting.
Not really about laws.
HS2 is the best current example. Wales robbed of £4bn by Tories, and Labour are not going to address it.
Johnsons Covid corruption was part paid for by Wales.
The democratic deficit of wales voting for progressive parties for 100 years, but still getting governments of Englands choosing.
The lack of teaching of welsh culture in welsh school is apparent on the very website, instead welsh children are taught Britnat culture instead.
Welsh coal tips ignored, where is the benefit of the union ? What happened to the trillions of pounds made on welsh coal ?
The bullshite of Englands Brexit lies mainstreamed by BBC and MSM into Wales and against our interests.
Why is Wales paying for illegal wars ?
Why have Scotland and the north of Ireland got Air Passenger Duty devolved but not Wales.
Crown Estate in hands if Scottish Govt, but not Wales.
And many more ….
Look at Ireland being a grown up nation, able to make its own decisions. This is normal. | |
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