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Barrow (H) Match Thread on 15:46 - Mar 13 by KnavesmireBob
Long stream of consciousness that's been swimming around my head a while, apologies for wasting a couple of minutes of your life if you make it to the end.
Might well be wide of the mark but to me it feels our current lack of progress is less about player competence and more Stockdale still figuring out his right leadership style. The players seem frozen at the moment and don't know whether to stick or twist, and RS' interviews are increasingly hinting at a loss of confidence and second guessing himself, perhaps leading to over managing. Would be completely understandable given he's new at this level, but I do wonder if that's filtering through to the players and hindering them from performing to their potential.
I still believe this is a squad full of talent, but at this level it's as much about what happens between the ears as the feet. Clark, Ball and Charman all made eye catching debuts. First game, no previous context or expectations, just playing. Grant's 10 min cameo at the end of the Northampton win when the game felt secure was a Grant we've rarely seen this season, all freedom and flow, shades of Paddy. Done and Keohane's first games back were similar, happy footballers back on the pitch doing what they love. But on to the next games, fill their heads with complexity and they quickly retreat to become shadows of themselves. Jonny Wilkinson's a great listen about this here :
I like RS and am naturally drawn to his honesty, how much he cares about our position in the table, desperate for us to win and improve etc. But I wonder if those direct messages land better with fans, especially of a similar generation or older, more so than modern Gen Z footballers in their 20s. It's increasingly apparent he's a student of Allardyce and comments like kittens to a dog fight just apply more pressure to already fragile confidence. I'd have loved to have seen the squad heading out to the Canaries last week on a team bonding trip or something similar, for example. Start backing ourselves again.
BBM by contrast felt the complete opposite. Almost as though he was under managing at times, little interest in results and table positions, all about 'player development'. Drove us all mad, but yet probably an endearingly empathetic leadership style within the dressing room and the players seemed to love him.
The best managers like Pep and Klopp seem to strike that perfect balance - on one hand all intense relentlessness and winners mentality with highly sophisticated tactical brains, but equally able to send out happy and confident players on match day with liberated clear minds, free to perform to the best of their potential. I guess that's why they're at the top of the game.
I like the fact we give young managers a chance and if this doesn't work out I don't think that necessarily means the experiment is proved to have failed and needs an over-steer in the opposite direction - merge the best attributes from our current and previous manager and I reckon you've someone who can lead us back to League 1. But take the worst and we're heading to the National League.
I'm desperate for him to succeed and am still Stockdale in, but I think it's all about how much he can learn and develop during the close season and hit the ground running come August. That's going to take a willingness to be reflective and vulnerable with himself, and open up to some direct feedback from those around him. I've no idea what Sammy Lee's like as a mentor, but for me that's a key support role for any young manager finding their way as a #1.
Either way, I hope the board already have a clear succession planning strategy in place just in case. The Southampton CEO Martin Semmens was superb on 5 Live's Monday Night Club the other week in speaking about the transparency they have with Hassenhuttl on this, and generally came across as a benchmark in modern off pitch leadership. But fingers crossed we won't need that and Robbie's our guy to get us safely through to May and then lead us to happier times next season. I still think that can be the case, but right now like Chaff said on the pod I can't wait for the season to end.
Agree with a lot of that. RS seems to do a lot of things that fit with us supporters feelings like playing people in their positions etc. But occasionally you want a manager to come up with something daring and innovative that us fans wouldn't see and it work. We've not seen that yet.
I always remember when Perkins had just signed for us as a left footed central midfielder and Hilly brought him on at half time at right back and it changed the game. I can't imagine RS doing anything like that.
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 16:13 - Mar 13 by boromat
Agree with a lot of that. RS seems to do a lot of things that fit with us supporters feelings like playing people in their positions etc. But occasionally you want a manager to come up with something daring and innovative that us fans wouldn't see and it work. We've not seen that yet.
I always remember when Perkins had just signed for us as a left footed central midfielder and Hilly brought him on at half time at right back and it changed the game. I can't imagine RS doing anything like that.
I’ve said all season that RS feels too safe.
As if there’s no gamble in him at all. You’re absolutely spot on about Hill. He did some mental things that turned games on their heads, I mean he also did a lot of mental things towards the end that had the opposite effect.
This for me is why our record against the poorer teams in the division is so bad. They turn up on the negative without really offering much, we’re too predictable and set up uber defensively (no matter how he tried to dress it up we’re playing 5 at the back).
I’d rather on Tuesday night we come out and play 4-3-3, actually go for it, throw caution to the wind and lose than endure another 0-0 like that.
[Post edited 13 Mar 2022 16:54]
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Barrow (H) Match Thread on 16:21 - Mar 13 with 2968 views
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 16:13 - Mar 13 by boromat
Agree with a lot of that. RS seems to do a lot of things that fit with us supporters feelings like playing people in their positions etc. But occasionally you want a manager to come up with something daring and innovative that us fans wouldn't see and it work. We've not seen that yet.
I always remember when Perkins had just signed for us as a left footed central midfielder and Hilly brought him on at half time at right back and it changed the game. I can't imagine RS doing anything like that.
That was the 5-0 v MK Dons. And whilst Perkins was excellent at right back and ended up all over the pitch, the sub was forced on Hill in the first half when Simon Ramsden got injured.
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 16:21 - Mar 13 by 442Dale
That was the 5-0 v MK Dons. And whilst Perkins was excellent at right back and ended up all over the pitch, the sub was forced on Hill in the first half when Simon Ramsden got injured.
Never knew Ramsden was injured always remember it as tactical. But my comment still stands Hill was more adventurous and unpredictable. I'm not saying I want RS to go all out Hill but occasionally a bit of tactical ingenuity from someone who sees the players day in day out would be good to see. I think Keohane at centre back and O'Keefe as a winger is the most unhinged selection we've seen from RS 😂.
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 15:46 - Mar 13 by KnavesmireBob
Long stream of consciousness that's been swimming around my head a while, apologies for wasting a couple of minutes of your life if you make it to the end.
Might well be wide of the mark but to me it feels our current lack of progress is less about player competence and more Stockdale still figuring out his right leadership style. The players seem frozen at the moment and don't know whether to stick or twist, and RS' interviews are increasingly hinting at a loss of confidence and second guessing himself, perhaps leading to over managing. Would be completely understandable given he's new at this level, but I do wonder if that's filtering through to the players and hindering them from performing to their potential.
I still believe this is a squad full of talent, but at this level it's as much about what happens between the ears as the feet. Clark, Ball and Charman all made eye catching debuts. First game, no previous context or expectations, just playing. Grant's 10 min cameo at the end of the Northampton win when the game felt secure was a Grant we've rarely seen this season, all freedom and flow, shades of Paddy. Done and Keohane's first games back were similar, happy footballers back on the pitch doing what they love. But on to the next games, fill their heads with complexity and they quickly retreat to become shadows of themselves. Jonny Wilkinson's a great listen about this here :
I like RS and am naturally drawn to his honesty, how much he cares about our position in the table, desperate for us to win and improve etc. But I wonder if those direct messages land better with fans, especially of a similar generation or older, more so than modern Gen Z footballers in their 20s. It's increasingly apparent he's a student of Allardyce and comments like kittens to a dog fight just apply more pressure to already fragile confidence. I'd have loved to have seen the squad heading out to the Canaries last week on a team bonding trip or something similar, for example. Start backing ourselves again.
BBM by contrast felt the complete opposite. Almost as though he was under managing at times, little interest in results and table positions, all about 'player development'. Drove us all mad, but yet probably an endearingly empathetic leadership style within the dressing room and the players seemed to love him.
The best managers like Pep and Klopp seem to strike that perfect balance - on one hand all intense relentlessness and winners mentality with highly sophisticated tactical brains, but equally able to send out happy and confident players on match day with liberated clear minds, free to perform to the best of their potential. I guess that's why they're at the top of the game.
I like the fact we give young managers a chance and if this doesn't work out I don't think that necessarily means the experiment is proved to have failed and needs an over-steer in the opposite direction - merge the best attributes from our current and previous manager and I reckon you've someone who can lead us back to League 1. But take the worst and we're heading to the National League.
I'm desperate for him to succeed and am still Stockdale in, but I think it's all about how much he can learn and develop during the close season and hit the ground running come August. That's going to take a willingness to be reflective and vulnerable with himself, and open up to some direct feedback from those around him. I've no idea what Sammy Lee's like as a mentor, but for me that's a key support role for any young manager finding their way as a #1.
Either way, I hope the board already have a clear succession planning strategy in place just in case. The Southampton CEO Martin Semmens was superb on 5 Live's Monday Night Club the other week in speaking about the transparency they have with Hassenhuttl on this, and generally came across as a benchmark in modern off pitch leadership. But fingers crossed we won't need that and Robbie's our guy to get us safely through to May and then lead us to happier times next season. I still think that can be the case, but right now like Chaff said on the pod I can't wait for the season to end.
That's the kind of intelligent stream of consciousness i can quite happily spend a few minutes of my life taking in
Don't agree on everything (which is only to be expected - for instance, i'm not a fan of manager mentorship, RS has already served a long apprenticeship at other clubs and it's entirely possible that if he's confusing the players it's due to him being confused by advice which perhaps doesn't fit with his view of the game - clear head for a manager as well as players!! See also: KH as he stepped into the job in late 2006. Edit: i've just read other comments re KH too)
But a great deal of thoughtful analysis. More, please, whenever!
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 13:30 - Mar 13 by 442Dale
Would argue the RB/RWB position is better now as Keohane is back and playing well there enabling us to play a back four. Thought we did ok out wide yesterday actually and that’s why the subs didn’t work out well as the threat reduced down the flanks after they were made.
Although I’m glad Keohane’s back, O’Keefe hasn’t been anywhere near his best since signing in January. The reason the wing-back system suited is in the first half of the season is O’Keefe was arguably our best player. Since returning he’s been poor (although still has far more assists than anyone else). It’s yet another reason it doesn’t make sense to stick to the current formation.
Although I’m glad Keohane’s back, O’Keefe hasn’t been anywhere near his best since signing in January. The reason the wing-back system suited is in the first half of the season is O’Keefe was arguably our best player. Since returning he’s been poor (although still has far more assists than anyone else). It’s yet another reason it doesn’t make sense to stick to the current formation.
Though we didn’t yesterday and Stockdale did try something a bit different. Keohane was RB, illustrated in the warm up and for most of the game. However, O’Keeffe did sometimes drop deeper and Keohane moved inside one on the odd occasion they had an extra player out left. It was quite interesting to watch (relative to everything else!) as it was a rare example of a team playing two formations within the game.
When Cashman came on it pushed O’Keeffe deeper as we’d lost a man in midfield. For all the criticism of Stockdale, some justified, he was quite creative yesterday in how we set up.
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 17:33 - Mar 13 by 442Dale
Though we didn’t yesterday and Stockdale did try something a bit different. Keohane was RB, illustrated in the warm up and for most of the game. However, O’Keeffe did sometimes drop deeper and Keohane moved inside one on the odd occasion they had an extra player out left. It was quite interesting to watch (relative to everything else!) as it was a rare example of a team playing two formations within the game.
When Cashman came on it pushed O’Keeffe deeper as we’d lost a man in midfield. For all the criticism of Stockdale, some justified, he was quite creative yesterday in how we set up.
I thought the same yesterday, until people convinced me I was losing the plot and it was the same formation as ever! I would also say Done seemed a lot closer to Campbell than usual - for the first 25 minutes, at least.
[Post edited 13 Mar 2022 18:23]
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Barrow (H) Match Thread on 17:44 - Mar 13 with 2653 views
I thought the same yesterday, until people convinced me I was losing the plot and it was the same formation as ever! I would also say Done seemed a lot closer to Campbell than usual - for the first 25 minutes, at least.
[Post edited 13 Mar 2022 18:23]
You were right. The amount of times Keohane got forward was an illustration of his role as a traditional full back. Done did that well at first resulting in the chance for Campbell, but he was wider most of the time and we definitely lost some impetus after he went off if only because of the way his movement pu pressure on defenders.
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 17:44 - Mar 13 by 442Dale
You were right. The amount of times Keohane got forward was an illustration of his role as a traditional full back. Done did that well at first resulting in the chance for Campbell, but he was wider most of the time and we definitely lost some impetus after he went off if only because of the way his movement pu pressure on defenders.
Not just Keohane
As an example of the flexibility of the system RS deploys, all five players who might be regarded as part of a back four or five, i.e. O'Keeffe, Keohane, O'Connell, Dorsett & Clark, found themselves either on the edge of the box taking a shot or even on the by-line putting a cross into the box, especially during the latter stages of the game
Sorry to disillusion those who keep repeating the mantra of predictability, but that's a direct and obvious example of how we aren't. The problem was failure to convert those chances, which were created in sufficient number to satisfy anyone with a sense of realism
I've got a feeling Downing returning from injury may unlock a better formation (after FGR it was an estimated 2 week lay off... Salford on Tuesday will see it hit 5 weeks).
Keeper Keohane Downing O'Connell Dorsett O'Keeffe Ball Kelly Clark Campbell Charman
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 18:29 - Mar 13 by HullDale
I've got a feeling Downing returning from injury may unlock a better formation (after FGR it was an estimated 2 week lay off... Salford on Tuesday will see it hit 5 weeks).
Keeper Keohane Downing O'Connell Dorsett O'Keeffe Ball Kelly Clark Campbell Charman
Stick me down as someone who thought Dorsett did well yesterday as well, but doubt there will ever be a time when he’s used at left back in a back four. Clark played well there yesterday and is far more comfortable than O’Keeffe as a traditional full back.
Also, not convinced we are the right club in the right division for Kelly at the moment.
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 20:06 - Mar 13 by 442Dale
Stick me down as someone who thought Dorsett did well yesterday as well, but doubt there will ever be a time when he’s used at left back in a back four. Clark played well there yesterday and is far more comfortable than O’Keeffe as a traditional full back.
Also, not convinced we are the right club in the right division for Kelly at the moment.
Its a fair point about Dorsett.
My thinking is that having that 4 gives us some real height at the back, extra cover when needed from O'Keeffe and Clark, gives O'Connell the chance to step forward and play as a sweeper between the other back three and the central midfield two, and a few other permutations to change shape during the game without changing personnel.
4-4-2 4-2-2-2 3-5-2 5-3-2 3-1-4-2 5-1-3-2
RS has said a few times in recent weeks that teams have set up differently against us to how we expected, so I think there is something to be said for being really flexible formation wise from the first minute just in case.
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Barrow (H) Match Thread on 07:56 - Mar 14 with 2028 views
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 18:22 - Mar 13 by D_Alien
Not just Keohane
As an example of the flexibility of the system RS deploys, all five players who might be regarded as part of a back four or five, i.e. O'Keeffe, Keohane, O'Connell, Dorsett & Clark, found themselves either on the edge of the box taking a shot or even on the by-line putting a cross into the box, especially during the latter stages of the game
Sorry to disillusion those who keep repeating the mantra of predictability, but that's a direct and obvious example of how we aren't. The problem was failure to convert those chances, which were created in sufficient number to satisfy anyone with a sense of realism
Sorry to highlight the fact that this wonderful, fluid, fantastic formation you speak so highly of has yielded some unbelievable performances & results hasn’t it?
No.
Since the turn of the year:
Played 12 Won 2 Goals scored 9 (3 of those in one game against Harrogate) In 5 of those games (nearly 50%) we failed to score
How anyone can justify us sticking with this formation is beyond me.
It no longer works given the players we now have in the team. As mentioned previously Morley & Beesley were key to the initial success of this formation & since their departures it has failed miserably.
Having three people on the pitch, all who can play RWB at any one time is all well & good, what you’re missing is the fact we are sacrificing somebody to play off Campbell which is blindingly obvious to the rest of us.
Edit - Dorsett is nowhere near as bad as is being made out by some, if anything he is copping for some of the criticism that should be aimed at the management team.
[Post edited 14 Mar 2022 7:57]
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Barrow (H) Match Thread on 09:38 - Mar 14 with 1908 views
Sorry to highlight the fact that this wonderful, fluid, fantastic formation you speak so highly of has yielded some unbelievable performances & results hasn’t it?
No.
Since the turn of the year:
Played 12 Won 2 Goals scored 9 (3 of those in one game against Harrogate) In 5 of those games (nearly 50%) we failed to score
How anyone can justify us sticking with this formation is beyond me.
It no longer works given the players we now have in the team. As mentioned previously Morley & Beesley were key to the initial success of this formation & since their departures it has failed miserably.
Having three people on the pitch, all who can play RWB at any one time is all well & good, what you’re missing is the fact we are sacrificing somebody to play off Campbell which is blindingly obvious to the rest of us.
Edit - Dorsett is nowhere near as bad as is being made out by some, if anything he is copping for some of the criticism that should be aimed at the management team.
[Post edited 14 Mar 2022 7:57]
Totally agree , apart from Dorsett, sorry , he really is not good enough. We need to start hitting the back of the net or else we will be really in the mire.
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Barrow (H) Match Thread on 10:23 - Mar 14 with 1838 views
Sorry to highlight the fact that this wonderful, fluid, fantastic formation you speak so highly of has yielded some unbelievable performances & results hasn’t it?
No.
Since the turn of the year:
Played 12 Won 2 Goals scored 9 (3 of those in one game against Harrogate) In 5 of those games (nearly 50%) we failed to score
How anyone can justify us sticking with this formation is beyond me.
It no longer works given the players we now have in the team. As mentioned previously Morley & Beesley were key to the initial success of this formation & since their departures it has failed miserably.
Having three people on the pitch, all who can play RWB at any one time is all well & good, what you’re missing is the fact we are sacrificing somebody to play off Campbell which is blindingly obvious to the rest of us.
Edit - Dorsett is nowhere near as bad as is being made out by some, if anything he is copping for some of the criticism that should be aimed at the management team.
[Post edited 14 Mar 2022 7:57]
While there is plenty of valid criticism within this thread, we didn’t stick with the same formation on Saturday. It was four at the back. O’Keeffe was playing higher up the pitch with Keohane at RB - see earlier post.
We also played a midfield three, something else we haven’t used often.
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 10:23 - Mar 14 by 442Dale
While there is plenty of valid criticism within this thread, we didn’t stick with the same formation on Saturday. It was four at the back. O’Keeffe was playing higher up the pitch with Keohane at RB - see earlier post.
We also played a midfield three, something else we haven’t used often.
Think it varied between a back 5 and a back 4 to be fair. Sometimes COK was a full back, with Keohane one of 3 centre halves, whilst at other times, he was playing more like a wing half. It seemed from the Main stand that the plan was for the two of them to interchange as play allowed. it certainly wasn't a flat back 4.
However; Campbell was woefully isolated up front against 2 centre halves, and this is getting frustrating for the crowd now. it's like we know that our midfield needs an additional body because they aren't strong enough, but this in turn leaves us having to play one up front which isn't working.
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Barrow (H) Match Thread on 11:20 - Mar 14 with 1706 views
Whilst I understand what you are saying its not entirely the case in point.
Some of the time we played with a back four, whilst others we very much operated with a back 5.
If you watch the 2 minutes of turgid highlights on Sky Sports, you can see there that COK & MC are very much sat in at full back on multiple occasions.
The issue here is that when we need to transition & move the ball forward, we have too many men behind the ball & absolutely nobody close enough to TC to affect the game.
Its all too safe.
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Barrow (H) Match Thread on 12:07 - Mar 14 with 1619 views
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 11:14 - Mar 14 by dawlishdale
Think it varied between a back 5 and a back 4 to be fair. Sometimes COK was a full back, with Keohane one of 3 centre halves, whilst at other times, he was playing more like a wing half. It seemed from the Main stand that the plan was for the two of them to interchange as play allowed. it certainly wasn't a flat back 4.
However; Campbell was woefully isolated up front against 2 centre halves, and this is getting frustrating for the crowd now. it's like we know that our midfield needs an additional body because they aren't strong enough, but this in turn leaves us having to play one up front which isn't working.
This is precisely how we were set up against Barrow, with flexibility that for instance, allowed one of our CBs (Dorsett) to be putting in a cross from the by-line second half
However much anyone (ahem...) carries on moaning about our formation(s), their initial point that they lack flexibility is demonstrable nonsense. Whether our performance within that flexibility was good enough is an entirely different matter
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 13:30 - Mar 13 by scarrow
This season was all about survival - White, Graham were panic signings and all we could get. Stay up and build. Next season is the one to make judgements on.
If they were panic signings, why did we give them both two year deals?
Tangled up in blue.
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Barrow (H) Match Thread on 12:13 - Mar 14 with 1609 views
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 12:08 - Mar 14 by AtThePeake
If they were panic signings, why did we give them both two year deals?
Also, unless i've missed something, why haven't we tried to get Graham a loan move to gain some much-needed first team experience, even if its a couple of leagues down the pyramid?
Just having him train and play the odd bounce game is a complete waste
Barrow (H) Match Thread on 12:07 - Mar 14 by D_Alien
This is precisely how we were set up against Barrow, with flexibility that for instance, allowed one of our CBs (Dorsett) to be putting in a cross from the by-line second half
However much anyone (ahem...) carries on moaning about our formation(s), their initial point that they lack flexibility is demonstrable nonsense. Whether our performance within that flexibility was good enough is an entirely different matter
Haha it gets better...
Because of all our outfield players, the one you really want to be crossing the ball into the box is... Dorsett! Brilliant.
Another fantastic reason to stick with this nonsense.
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