| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing 16:47 - May 16 with 2045 views | Jules4367 |
I'll try to set the background (as brief as poss) and then ask the question.
Two separate games (of many) watched this season
Game 1:
Two assistant referees and one referee.
Scenario 1 Game 1: Ball goes out of play on side line, assistant looks at referee, referee points, THEN assistant raises flag to indicate throw in .
Scenario 2 Game 1: There is an obvious foul directly in front of assitant but no flag, referee blows whistle for a foul and points indicating the direction of play arising from the foul (or of course arm aloft for indirect) THEN assistant raises flag to indicate foul.
Game 2
Two different assistant referees and one different referee.
Scenario 1 Game 2: Ball goes out of play on side line, assistant immediately raises flag to indicate throw in, referee points to indicate throw in .
Scenario 2 Game 2: There is an obvious foul directly in front of assitant, assitant raises and waves flag to indicate foul play, referee blows whistle for a foul and points indicating the direction of play arising from the foul (or of course arm aloft for indirect).
Clearly there is a difference in what the assistant referees do in Game 1 from Game 2
If we see the refereeing as described in Game 2 and then, the next game the refereeing is as Game 1, we get annoyed and abuse the assistant refs for not flagging and or abuse the ref.
I have tried to understand this disparity in the officiating that an assistant has and when he raises hs flag (aside from offsides and corners) and have been advised, by both referees and assitants, as follows:
PRIOR to commencement of game, in the dressing room, the refereee advises his assistants what he wants them to flag for with respect to foul play and ball in touch.
Some refs say that they want the assitants help (and we get the game 2 indication and the assitant involved in the game)
However.... and this is the point and the background
In other games the referee advises the assistants that he SOLELY wants them to look for and flag for offside and corner/goal kicks and NOTHING ELSE as he will decide!
If this IS the case (and from the refereeing and assistants in the Championship and other divisions can someone please explain straight (as opposed to humour or sarcasm please)
1: Why it changes from game to game- a nonsense surely?!
2: Why the crowd cannot be told which form of officiating we shall be watching over the PA prior to the start of the game?
There is a trend to try and prevent side line abuse and referee abuse but IF, from one game to the next you don't know if the game is being run by one pair of eyes or three pairs of eyes, THEN the crowd IS going to get infuriated when the assistant refuses to raise his flag- solely because the referee has told him before the game NOT TO!
It seems a madness but, now that it has been explained to me that it is the referee who decides (and we know what some of them are like) I would like to know where to correctly direct my frustration and not start singing " Lino Lino you're a (whatever)!" when, in reality it is to the referee!
Yes, there are a lot of sarcastic and humorous replies possible here but, trying to be serious, could someone please answer and explain this disparity in officiating matches. [Post edited 16 May 16:50]
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| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing on 16:52 - May 16 with 2014 views | stowmarketrange |
I’m not sure that the Lino’s would be told to not flag for fouls at a higher level,if that’s how I’m reading it?Sometimes the Lino can’t see which way to give a throw-I and they wait for instructions from the refs.At the games at the weekend that I run the line for I’m normally told just flag for throws,corners and offside.Although I’m told that I can be overruled if the ref sees something that I don’t see. [Post edited 16 May 16:57]
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| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing on 17:06 - May 16 with 1954 views | stowmarketrange |
| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing on 16:56 - May 16 by Jules4367 |
Ok and thanks but clearly we DO see a difference and even watching on TV I watch the assisant and note that he/ she often keeps his/her flag down even when the ball has gone into touch beside him/her UNTIL the referee points and THEN he/she raises the flag!
If you haven't seen this (and, as I say, it is the same for fouls) please watch out for it.
There IS 'inconsistency' that the crowds see week in week out!   [Post edited 16 May 16:59]
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I just added that sometimes the Lino can’t see for certain which way to give the throw,so keeps his flag down and waits to see if the ref has seen it better.
I make mistakes on Saturday and Sunday mornings,but I can only go by what I see.We all see things differently,but it does lead to frustration if a linesman hesitates before waving his flag,and I complain enough when I see it at loftus road,but I know how difficult it can be to see it clearly when everything is happening so fast in front of you.
I gave an offside decision a couple of weeks ago in my granddaughter’s game and one fan shouted that it’s 2024,so I guess I might’ve flagged too soon,but a quick word from the ref soon shut him up.
It’s a difficult job to do,but if there were no officials,there would be no games. | | | |
| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing on 17:11 - May 16 with 1934 views | Northernr |
Yeh when I was progressing through the refereeing ranks as a youngster this came up a lot.
If I was in the middle I would basically ask my linos for everything, I wanted as much information as I could get to make the best decisions.
What I often found happening when I was on the line for more senior referees is they'd take one look at me and my age and immediately say they only want offside and throw ins - I'm not under any circumstances allowed to start flagging for free kicks.
The logic I guess is if you've got a referee with vastly more experience than the lino they're going to perhaps have different opinions over what constitutes a foul or not. You've also got referees like Mark Halsey used to be who are very happy to let things go, who wouldn't then want to be railroaded into giving a load of fouls by having a fussy bstrd like Steve Martin on the line. This is particularly acute around penalties - you really don't want to be in a position as a referee where the lino flags for a penalty you don't want to give because it's very difficult for you to still say no while the lino is flagging for it (though I have seen that happen).
Personally I think it often shows a lack of self confidence in the main referee. Worried about being overruled, made to look stupid etc. I think it looks absolutely pathetic when they're both staring at each other waiting for the secret signal over which way a poxy throw in is. Oliver Langford is really bad for this - every throw in in his matches there's this long drawn out process where the officials stare at each other and try to simultanously raise arm and flag in the same direction.
The other thing to bear in mind now is at the pro level they're all micd up. So just because the lino isn't flagging, doesn't mean he's not in the referee's ear going "penalty, penalty, penalty" and then the ref is making a call.
I had a Lincs cup final at Gainsborough Trinity one night where I was 16-17 years old, and some retired Football League referee waltzes into the dressing room before hand giving it the big I am. He took one look at me and told me he didn't want me to flag for anything - including offsides. If I thought it was offside I was to stand still, and if he agreed he would blow and I should raise my flag at that point. Absolute fcking bell end. I made very sure that within the first five minutes I did a big, extravagant flagging for a free kick right in front of the main stand 
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing on 17:17 - May 16 with 1899 views | stowmarketrange |
| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing on 17:11 - May 16 by Northernr |
Yeh when I was progressing through the refereeing ranks as a youngster this came up a lot.
If I was in the middle I would basically ask my linos for everything, I wanted as much information as I could get to make the best decisions.
What I often found happening when I was on the line for more senior referees is they'd take one look at me and my age and immediately say they only want offside and throw ins - I'm not under any circumstances allowed to start flagging for free kicks.
The logic I guess is if you've got a referee with vastly more experience than the lino they're going to perhaps have different opinions over what constitutes a foul or not. You've also got referees like Mark Halsey used to be who are very happy to let things go, who wouldn't then want to be railroaded into giving a load of fouls by having a fussy bstrd like Steve Martin on the line. This is particularly acute around penalties - you really don't want to be in a position as a referee where the lino flags for a penalty you don't want to give because it's very difficult for you to still say no while the lino is flagging for it (though I have seen that happen).
Personally I think it often shows a lack of self confidence in the main referee. Worried about being overruled, made to look stupid etc. I think it looks absolutely pathetic when they're both staring at each other waiting for the secret signal over which way a poxy throw in is. Oliver Langford is really bad for this - every throw in in his matches there's this long drawn out process where the officials stare at each other and try to simultanously raise arm and flag in the same direction.
The other thing to bear in mind now is at the pro level they're all micd up. So just because the lino isn't flagging, doesn't mean he's not in the referee's ear going "penalty, penalty, penalty" and then the ref is making a call.
I had a Lincs cup final at Gainsborough Trinity one night where I was 16-17 years old, and some retired Football League referee waltzes into the dressing room before hand giving it the big I am. He took one look at me and told me he didn't want me to flag for anything - including offsides. If I thought it was offside I was to stand still, and if he agreed he would blow and I should raise my flag at that point. Absolute fcking bell end. I made very sure that within the first five minutes I did a big, extravagant flagging for a free kick right in front of the main stand
This post has been edited by an administrator |
I had one ref who overruled my offside decision when he was back in the opposition 18 yard box. | | | |
| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing on 17:19 - May 16 with 1896 views | Jules4367 |
| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing on 17:06 - May 16 by stowmarketrange |
I just added that sometimes the Lino can’t see for certain which way to give the throw,so keeps his flag down and waits to see if the ref has seen it better.
I make mistakes on Saturday and Sunday mornings,but I can only go by what I see.We all see things differently,but it does lead to frustration if a linesman hesitates before waving his flag,and I complain enough when I see it at loftus road,but I know how difficult it can be to see it clearly when everything is happening so fast in front of you.
I gave an offside decision a couple of weeks ago in my granddaughter’s game and one fan shouted that it’s 2024,so I guess I might’ve flagged too soon,but a quick word from the ref soon shut him up.
It’s a difficult job to do,but if there were no officials,there would be no games. |
Just to let you know...I'm not criticising the assistants at all and everyone in life makes mistakes and that's fine.
I just didn't understand why the flag so often stayed down when the ball is, say, alongside the assistant and then, when it was explained to me, it seemed a reason that the assistants often get shouted at unfairly and surely, if this IS happening, why cannot the crowd be told at the outset?
A simple: the referee today is officiating ALL calls except offsides or the referee and his assistants are officiating today!
How hard is that to go towards preventing unfair abuse?
People want refereees and assistants to be treated with respect and a simple announcement would surely help to that end?! [Post edited 16 May 17:21]
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| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing on 19:44 - May 16 with 1724 views | charmr |
The Lino can throw the main referee under the bus totally unintentionally. Flagging for everything not letting the ref have the first look. As soon as the Lino puts the flag up that gives an opportunity for coaches and players to pipe up, regardless. Its tough.
Some linos get involved too much. Lino puts the flag up for offside and you think it isn’t. You almost always have to go with the Lino as not to start a ruckess from the coaches and spectators. Grudges are held. Here in Maryland it’s a no tolerance policy and if spectators cause problems the coach has to deal with it. Yellow and red cards a lot more common now. I used to let a lot go because of my personality. Now for the good of the game and stopping young refs leave I act accordingly. Lots of good training here in MD. As soon as you meet the other officials you get a vibe how the game might go. I had a shocker a few weeks ago, it happens.
Last week a parent piped up about a decision and I asked him if he was a qualified referee. He replied he did know the rules even if the pass back rule is still somewhat subjective. Got told later he was an MLS referee. Lesson learnt. | | | |
| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing on 20:13 - May 16 with 1688 views | Snipper |
Does anybody remember the linesman putting his flag across his chest indicating a penalty for us vs Oldham in the first half of the second leg of the playoff semifinal at Loftus Road?
He spotted a handball by an Oldham player in the penalty area, but the referee, Mark Clattenberg, didn’t agree with him.
After going over to consult with the linesman, Clattenberg decided it wasn’t a penalty.
To this day, I haven’t got a clue as to whether it was a penalty or not. |  | | |
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| Refereeing and Assistant Refereeing on 09:58 - May 17 with 1453 views | terryb |
I can't answer either of your questions, but it is certainly the case that some referees, at all levels, dictate whether the assistant is to flag or not.
I would sugest that the number of refs that want to take sole responibility, has increased since they became professionals & the PGMOL came into existence.
I think the higher up you go, the more likely the referee will take this attitude. I always found that at a local level, the worst officials were the ex FL referees & linesman. They certainly had an air of "do you know who I am?" about them!
Yes Saunders, I'm definitely talking about you! | | | |
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