| Progression, stagnation or regression? 08:32 - Feb 9 with 14467 views | TalkingSutty |
Trying to make comparisons from one season to the next is obviously dictated by the performance of the players within the squad. Bad luck with injuries and financial constraints also play a part so sometimes the managers hands are tied when it comes to improvement.
This is turning into a pretty weird season and when you start to look through the squad of players how many have improved, stagnated or progressed? You would expect the younger players to improve and the older ones to maybe stagnate or possibly regress.
Would it be negative of me to suggest that the amount of players who have actually progressed isn't very many? Callum Camps springs to mind as a progression but on the flip side Peter Vincenti has shown regression, is that harsh? Jamie Allen seems to have stagnated for instance. Obviously there can be valid reasons like carrying a injury or being played out of position.
I think it's pretty obvious Hillys got a lot of shape shifting to do during the summer months, a lot of squad players are not contributing to the first team.
Which players would fit into each category for this current season? [Post edited 9 Feb 2016 8:46]
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 22:48 - Feb 10 with 2176 views | 1mark1 |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 21:50 - Feb 10 by PassmondsBlue |
True Mr Hill is not the football pundit that you see on MOTD or any other TV show but neither was Alex Ferguson or Jose Mourinho. What I want to see in a manager is someone who can spot talent and blend the a squad of players to better themselves, better the team and take the club forward as is happening now.
Some might say that dropping Lillis, publicly calling Bunny and Cannon was bad man management others might have a more educated view and see it as challenging them to become stronger, better and have more determination to fight for there place and the team cause, should they be good enough to go up a level. I say inspired leadership not poor management. |
How is your view anymore "educated" than than of those who take the opposite view from yours on this subject, or football in general? |  |
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 22:51 - Feb 10 with 2173 views | 442Dale |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 21:50 - Feb 10 by PassmondsBlue |
True Mr Hill is not the football pundit that you see on MOTD or any other TV show but neither was Alex Ferguson or Jose Mourinho. What I want to see in a manager is someone who can spot talent and blend the a squad of players to better themselves, better the team and take the club forward as is happening now.
Some might say that dropping Lillis, publicly calling Bunny and Cannon was bad man management others might have a more educated view and see it as challenging them to become stronger, better and have more determination to fight for there place and the team cause, should they be good enough to go up a level. I say inspired leadership not poor management. |
Look at Cannon's disciplinary record since Hill spoke about him in the media.
Facts back up opinion. |  |
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 22:51 - Feb 10 with 2173 views | TVOS1907 |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 22:48 - Feb 10 by 1mark1 |
How is your view anymore "educated" than than of those who take the opposite view from yours on this subject, or football in general? |
He didn't say it was. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 22:56 - Feb 10 with 2164 views | 1mark1 |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 22:51 - Feb 10 by TVOS1907 |
He didn't say it was. |
Ok, of he wasn't saying that, I do apologise. Was he suggesting some who have a particular viewpoint do, or was he meaning the KH and other coaches? | |
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 23:07 - Feb 10 with 2153 views | D_Alien |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 22:56 - Feb 10 by 1mark1 |
Ok, of he wasn't saying that, I do apologise. Was he suggesting some who have a particular viewpoint do, or was he meaning the KH and other coaches? |
No need to apologise, 1mark1, you were right to call Passmonds for his "others might take a more educated view" remark
It's rank bad man management to try to educate players (if that's what he was seeking to do) via the media. If he wants to get his message across, he can do so easily enough in private, but choosing to go public was inexcusable, even if there are those among us who will seek to excuse it. |  |
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 23:29 - Feb 10 with 2119 views | 1mark1 |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 23:07 - Feb 10 by D_Alien |
No need to apologise, 1mark1, you were right to call Passmonds for his "others might take a more educated view" remark
It's rank bad man management to try to educate players (if that's what he was seeking to do) via the media. If he wants to get his message across, he can do so easily enough in private, but choosing to go public was inexcusable, even if there are those among us who will seek to excuse it. |
Well the best managers I have ever known who get the best out of their staff, or players, in any walk of life except maybe the armed forces, have done so by taking them to the side and quietly but firmly told them how they have gone wrong, and how to get better, not by ridiculing them in public. Obviously in a team situation it's done behind closed doors. | |
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 23:38 - Feb 10 with 2115 views | PassmondsBlue |
Please let me clear my point up, sorry if anyone thought I was saying that my view was more educated than anyone else's, this was not my point.
I am sure that the entire coaching staff and the manager have a very close relationship with each other at our club, they all train together (if we can tell come Saturday), travel together, we know they socialise together with there families etc. By this close relationship they must know one another very well, hence I'm sure that Hilly is constantly talking to the younger players with a view to making them better players and all round professionals, I am also sure he is constantly talking to the more experienced players asking them show the way and take extended responsibilities i.e. to guide the younger players. If with all this close contact some of the players become bigger than the team (we've seen Keltie in the past) and the younger players not step up to the mark when he believes they can, he might have to try to get a reaction some way.
An example of this is to say about Bunny being a amateur, he did not call him anything bad just probably reaffirmed a point he might have already asked him to change in private, the other option would be to say nothing and send him to Northwich Vics then release him at the end of the season to become an semi-pro and work at another job in the week. What's best to be open and honest and give him a chance to up his game or just make the decision for him? |  |
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 23:53 - Feb 10 with 2093 views | 1mark1 |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 23:38 - Feb 10 by PassmondsBlue |
Please let me clear my point up, sorry if anyone thought I was saying that my view was more educated than anyone else's, this was not my point.
I am sure that the entire coaching staff and the manager have a very close relationship with each other at our club, they all train together (if we can tell come Saturday), travel together, we know they socialise together with there families etc. By this close relationship they must know one another very well, hence I'm sure that Hilly is constantly talking to the younger players with a view to making them better players and all round professionals, I am also sure he is constantly talking to the more experienced players asking them show the way and take extended responsibilities i.e. to guide the younger players. If with all this close contact some of the players become bigger than the team (we've seen Keltie in the past) and the younger players not step up to the mark when he believes they can, he might have to try to get a reaction some way.
An example of this is to say about Bunny being a amateur, he did not call him anything bad just probably reaffirmed a point he might have already asked him to change in private, the other option would be to say nothing and send him to Northwich Vics then release him at the end of the season to become an semi-pro and work at another job in the week. What's best to be open and honest and give him a chance to up his game or just make the decision for him? |
Ok, thanks for clearing up what you meant by talking about educated.ðŸ‘
I still believe that "educating" through the media is not the right thing to do, but yes, all players have at some stage need to be managed, and yes KH and his coaching staff and sometimes senior players will know what is the best way of doing so, or what needs saying to a particular player. | |
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 23:56 - Feb 10 with 2090 views | D_Alien |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 23:38 - Feb 10 by PassmondsBlue |
Please let me clear my point up, sorry if anyone thought I was saying that my view was more educated than anyone else's, this was not my point.
I am sure that the entire coaching staff and the manager have a very close relationship with each other at our club, they all train together (if we can tell come Saturday), travel together, we know they socialise together with there families etc. By this close relationship they must know one another very well, hence I'm sure that Hilly is constantly talking to the younger players with a view to making them better players and all round professionals, I am also sure he is constantly talking to the more experienced players asking them show the way and take extended responsibilities i.e. to guide the younger players. If with all this close contact some of the players become bigger than the team (we've seen Keltie in the past) and the younger players not step up to the mark when he believes they can, he might have to try to get a reaction some way.
An example of this is to say about Bunny being a amateur, he did not call him anything bad just probably reaffirmed a point he might have already asked him to change in private, the other option would be to say nothing and send him to Northwich Vics then release him at the end of the season to become an semi-pro and work at another job in the week. What's best to be open and honest and give him a chance to up his game or just make the decision for him? |
If going public with the criticism of players (which extends to humiliation in Cannon's case) is something that Hilly judges will work in favour of both the player and the team, then fair enough.
But Hilly's criticism of fans (not specific fans, just fans) leads some of us to the conclusion that his public utterances aren't that well thought through.
None of which takes away from his achievements at Dale, which formed the greater part of your post, and which we've got plenty of reason to believe will be continued. | |
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 00:08 - Feb 11 with 2071 views | PassmondsBlue |
I think we all agree in principal, please see a previous post of mine from just before Christmas (below) that will support this, what I do believe though is that Hilly does have the club, the players or the fans at heart, just goes about it in his way.
My post from 19th Dec
I am 100% behind Keith Hill, the backroom staff and the team, but I can't help think that it is Keith who is disconnected with the fans and not sure of the role of a football manager. He is not the Chairman or the Financial Director he is the Manager and responsible for picking the team and portraying a positive outlook on all things team related and challenged and targeted by his employer to gain the highest finishing position possible, this should be top of the league as a primary target not consolidation.
He states may times that we will always be fighting against relegation - this is not a positive attitude that any fan wants to hear, even if he believes this he should nor say it (most employers would have words with employees for this type of verbal outlook)
He continually calls the fans for not understanding what he and the club want to achieve. Maybe he should explain it a little better as it just looks like "we want to develop players (kids and freebies) to make money and not reinvest". Rochdale AFC have made good money over the last few years by selling Matty Done, Craig Dawson, COG etc. a little bit of bURY type investment in quality players (not to bankrupt the club) would give the fans hope and support the development of our younger stars of the future.
I want a football manager to explain about the tactics and reasons he made decisions within a game, not, slag off the ref, slag off the fans, slag off ref and slag off the fans again. he made no subs today? we are told we have injuries and have to put one of the coaches BBM on the bench and play him in the last game, but, we have a busy Christmas period coming up and will probably be told the players are tired in the New Year.
Would it not have been better to give a post match report along the lines of - we did not get going today for the first 15 mins or so but I was encouraged by the way the players responded to the mistake we made leading to their goal. We have still a few injuries and players working with the coaching staff to regain their form, these players will be pushing to get in to the starting 11 in the new year and I feel confident we can move up the table when we have a full squad to pick from. We are 4 points off the playoffs going in to the second half of the season and I feel we are well placed after picking up 30 points from 22 games to have a real push for a top 7 finish come the end of the season. I would like to thank all the loyal fans on behalf of myself, the players and the club in general for their support this year wish them a fantastic Christmas and hope to see you all for the game against Crewe here on Boxing Day.
Lets get the connection back, it is both ways but it starts with the Club, Mr Hill and the players. Bring back the "NO FEAR" mantra instead of the "we will always be fighting relegation" line [Post edited 11 Feb 2016 0:11]
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 06:03 - Feb 11 with 1988 views | nordenblue |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 22:38 - Feb 10 by PassmondsBlue |
Nor kindergarten infants who will cry until morning break
He is dealing with mercenary grown men who would find another employer for a few quid more. What Rochdale offer is an opportunity to develop and progress under the guidance of the coaches, and manager, and if they cant take the truth and the facts will not survive in the professional football environment.
What I also find very hard to understand is the fact that after every poor team performance this site goes mad calling for the same players to be dropped, sold, given away to a non-league club on loan, publicly flogged, branded a leper etc. and when our manager protects those players and tries to develop them we have a go at him too. Double standards???? |
Some of your opinions on "man management" belong decades ago with the punish them,humiliate them some more type of attitude till they get the message.
If they can't take the truth and the facts will not survive in the professional football environment" they can be told the truth or the facts personally without the need to be publicly shown up. | | | |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 09:12 - Mar 31 with 1709 views | TalkingSutty |
The thread started just under 2 months ago and the difference over that time is there to see. It's about individual players and not the team. At the time I couldn't see many players who would slot into the progression category but things have now changed. Players who had been highlighted as maybe treading water have blossomed and the Progression box is now filling up nicely. No surprise the team has benefited.
Into the progress box go....Eastham, Rafferty, Lillis, McNulty, Rose, Bunney,Camps, Allen, Donal, NML. All those players have shown a upturn in form when compared to earlier in the season.
I haven't ignored Henderson because of his red cards, I just think his performance has been pretty consistent all season when those around him struggled for form. Stagnation for Henderson means we have a player who is always worthy of a place in the team, it's not a slur. | | | |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 10:31 - Mar 31 with 1626 views | aleanddale |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 09:12 - Mar 31 by TalkingSutty |
The thread started just under 2 months ago and the difference over that time is there to see. It's about individual players and not the team. At the time I couldn't see many players who would slot into the progression category but things have now changed. Players who had been highlighted as maybe treading water have blossomed and the Progression box is now filling up nicely. No surprise the team has benefited.
Into the progress box go....Eastham, Rafferty, Lillis, McNulty, Rose, Bunney,Camps, Allen, Donal, NML. All those players have shown a upturn in form when compared to earlier in the season.
I haven't ignored Henderson because of his red cards, I just think his performance has been pretty consistent all season when those around him struggled for form. Stagnation for Henderson means we have a player who is always worthy of a place in the team, it's not a slur. |
Very exciting looking a little further ahead to August....
A fully fit and raring to go starting 11 including all you mention there is mouth watering.
We also have Lund returning too!!! And big Calvin.
Definite progression for me..... Good bump this from 2 months previous.
Exciting times ahead. | | | |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 10:49 - Mar 31 with 1612 views | TalkingSutty |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 10:31 - Mar 31 by aleanddale |
Very exciting looking a little further ahead to August....
A fully fit and raring to go starting 11 including all you mention there is mouth watering.
We also have Lund returning too!!! And big Calvin.
Definite progression for me..... Good bump this from 2 months previous.
Exciting times ahead. |
If Hilly could squeeze another 20% fitness out of NML and Donal that would be massive also. Getting players signed up on contracts must be his biggest concern though. | | | |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 11:03 - Mar 31 with 1600 views | macro |
I could be wrong with the players out of contract but here's my opinion. It'll be interesting to see what does happen. I know we don't use the emergency loan system as much as others but its abolition will see clubs signing more players and we run the danger of losing some out of contract players to opponents.
New deals for
Lillis, rafferty, eastham, nml, bunney, McDermott, holt,
Release
Lancashire, rnl, Bennett, Logan, syers
Undecided for me
Rose, Andrew
Sign
Canavan if available |  | | |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 11:10 - Mar 31 with 1469 views | ColDale |
There's so many possible potential things you could point to for the turnaround, but Eastham and Canavan have been the change for me. I preferred Eastham to Lancashire, but didn't think there was a great deal in it. Pairing him with Canavan has allowed Eastham to play that style rather than the passing style of McNulty and Lancashire which has helped his game no end.
Fundamentally, I don't think we're playing a million times better than earlier in the season but its stopped us conceding cheaply and then having to fight our way back into games which I don't think our style of play suits (Oldham and Southend contradict this) especially with the way team sit deeper once in the lead. |  | | |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 11:30 - Mar 31 with 1437 views | aleanddale |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 11:03 - Mar 31 by macro |
I could be wrong with the players out of contract but here's my opinion. It'll be interesting to see what does happen. I know we don't use the emergency loan system as much as others but its abolition will see clubs signing more players and we run the danger of losing some out of contract players to opponents.
New deals for
Lillis, rafferty, eastham, nml, bunney, McDermott, holt,
Release
Lancashire, rnl, Bennett, Logan, syers
Undecided for me
Rose, Andrew
Sign
Canavan if available |
New deals for..
Lillis Rafferty holt Eastham Rose Donal and NML.
Bunny if the price is right same with Calvin Andrew & Bennett if we can get him fit!!
Sign
Absobloodylutely - the caravan.
Release
Lancashire RNL Logan Syers Bell? Or is he under contract for another year.
In hilly we 100% trust though.... What do we really know!! Ha ha. | | | |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 11:39 - Mar 31 with 1426 views | isitme |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 11:03 - Mar 31 by macro |
I could be wrong with the players out of contract but here's my opinion. It'll be interesting to see what does happen. I know we don't use the emergency loan system as much as others but its abolition will see clubs signing more players and we run the danger of losing some out of contract players to opponents.
New deals for
Lillis, rafferty, eastham, nml, bunney, McDermott, holt,
Release
Lancashire, rnl, Bennett, Logan, syers
Undecided for me
Rose, Andrew
Sign
Canavan if available |
I would agree with most of that. Obviously it depends on how much money certain players are asking and whether Hill feels that they offer value for money.
On recent form Lillis, Rafferty and Eastham have done more than enough to earn new deals. McDermott has a clause in his contract that allows us to automatically take up an option for next season. Holt would be a great signing. Bunney would be a decent squad player who would not command a high wage. NML I am unsure about. He is talented and can score goals but he lacks desire and fitness. Maybe a one year deal with lots of playing related incentives.
Your releases are obvious ones. Logan and RNL have not progressed and I am sure that Hooper offers more, but for less money. Syers has not really shown much and Lancashire is not good enough if we wont to progress. Bennett another who has not progressed and is maybe better suited to League two football.
Rose has been brilliant recently and Andrew can do a job, but I would release both of them. If we are going to progress we need better options in those two positions.
I would also make Kennedy and Alessandra available for transfer as it is obvious that Hill does not rate him.
Canavan would be a decent signing as well, although I would also look to bring in a quicker centre half to challenge Eastham and Canavan. |  | | |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 12:20 - Mar 31 with 1368 views | dingdangblue |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 11:03 - Mar 31 by macro |
I could be wrong with the players out of contract but here's my opinion. It'll be interesting to see what does happen. I know we don't use the emergency loan system as much as others but its abolition will see clubs signing more players and we run the danger of losing some out of contract players to opponents.
New deals for
Lillis, rafferty, eastham, nml, bunney, McDermott, holt,
Release
Lancashire, rnl, Bennett, Logan, syers
Undecided for me
Rose, Andrew
Sign
Canavan if available |
I know its very difficult for us as a club to hand out contract's any longer than 2 years - but it leave's us in this awful situation of possibly losing Lillis,Eastham,Rafferty,NML in a few months time for nothing. Thats almost half of our current starting eleven. |  |
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 12:28 - Mar 31 with 1359 views | robbowood |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 12:20 - Mar 31 by dingdangblue |
I know its very difficult for us as a club to hand out contract's any longer than 2 years - but it leave's us in this awful situation of possibly losing Lillis,Eastham,Rafferty,NML in a few months time for nothing. Thats almost half of our current starting eleven. |
I don''t think all that many players at most clubs in the lower two divisions get more than 2 year deals ????? | | | |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 12:40 - Mar 31 with 1347 views | lurker |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 11:39 - Mar 31 by isitme |
I would agree with most of that. Obviously it depends on how much money certain players are asking and whether Hill feels that they offer value for money.
On recent form Lillis, Rafferty and Eastham have done more than enough to earn new deals. McDermott has a clause in his contract that allows us to automatically take up an option for next season. Holt would be a great signing. Bunney would be a decent squad player who would not command a high wage. NML I am unsure about. He is talented and can score goals but he lacks desire and fitness. Maybe a one year deal with lots of playing related incentives.
Your releases are obvious ones. Logan and RNL have not progressed and I am sure that Hooper offers more, but for less money. Syers has not really shown much and Lancashire is not good enough if we wont to progress. Bennett another who has not progressed and is maybe better suited to League two football.
Rose has been brilliant recently and Andrew can do a job, but I would release both of them. If we are going to progress we need better options in those two positions.
I would also make Kennedy and Alessandra available for transfer as it is obvious that Hill does not rate him.
Canavan would be a decent signing as well, although I would also look to bring in a quicker centre half to challenge Eastham and Canavan. |
Rose is in a strange position in that he is performing very well of late but age is not on his side and a whether he could fill the role he is playing consistently on a permanent basis is a bit of a doubt.
He is in a similar situation to Peter Cavanagh in our last promotion season. He was playing excellently at the end of his deal and looking very comfortable but a decision on a contract had to be made in view of his age. Hill made a decision without sentiment and it proved to be correct in the long run. I think the same will happen with Rose to be honest. |  | | |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 12:48 - Mar 31 with 1328 views | dingdangblue |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 12:28 - Mar 31 by robbowood |
I don''t think all that many players at most clubs in the lower two divisions get more than 2 year deals ????? |
No - I know it makes complete financial sense for Dale - I agree with the policy - its just very difficult to maintain, after that first 12 month you have to be offering any decent player a new deal and I imagine its a nightmare dealing with agents. | |
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 12:51 - Mar 31 with 1322 views | TalkingSutty |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 12:40 - Mar 31 by lurker |
Rose is in a strange position in that he is performing very well of late but age is not on his side and a whether he could fill the role he is playing consistently on a permanent basis is a bit of a doubt.
He is in a similar situation to Peter Cavanagh in our last promotion season. He was playing excellently at the end of his deal and looking very comfortable but a decision on a contract had to be made in view of his age. Hill made a decision without sentiment and it proved to be correct in the long run. I think the same will happen with Rose to be honest. |
I wouldn't judge Rose on his age, more on his fitness levels. He's a utility player with plenty of experience who is fit as a fiddle compared to some we have in the squad. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Hilly gives him another twelve months, i think he deserves it. When Hill had his period of blue sky thinking and identified the players he could trust, that's when he called on Rose and packed the team with experience, we haven't looked back since. [Post edited 31 Mar 2016 12:54]
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| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 12:54 - Mar 31 with 1309 views | robbowood |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 12:48 - Mar 31 by dingdangblue |
No - I know it makes complete financial sense for Dale - I agree with the policy - its just very difficult to maintain, after that first 12 month you have to be offering any decent player a new deal and I imagine its a nightmare dealing with agents. |
I suspect many clubs in the lower two divisions wish they hadn't given three years deals or more
We can't compete with other clubs on wages so if one of our players leaves for a better deal after one or two years so be it - there are plenty of players available from all the other clubs at the end of every season for Hilly to recruit from | | | |
| Progression, stagnation or regression? on 12:59 - Mar 31 with 1293 views | boromat |
This is what I think the list will look like at the end of the season.
Progressed
Camps
Raff
Lund (First season back with less injuries)
Allen (Apart from the injury he's now looking better than ever)
McDermott (Now has a place in the team can he perform consistently until the end of the season?)
NML (Same as Donal)
Eastham (Came back in and has been better than last season in my opinion)
Rose (Developed into a solid defensive midfielder, he looked out of position at times last year not anymore)
Andrew
Bunney
Stagnated
Hendo
Cannon
Regressed
Vincenti
Lancashire
Bennett
Not seen enough of
RNL
Tanser
Hooper
Billy
Bell
Diba
Overall I think we've improved as a squad but there could be some surprises in the summer depending on any player sales. [Post edited 31 Mar 2016 13:00]
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