| Jamie bids 21:45 - Jun 24 with 27089 views | fitzochris |
|  |
| |  |
| Jamie bids on 17:14 - Jun 25 with 4298 views | Brierls |
| Jamie bids on 17:11 - Jun 25 by rkershaw |
If the other rumoured team is Sheff Utd then what about a deal to bring JOC/Done this way again as a bargaining tool? |
I don't think there is any chance of us signing JOC. |  | | |
| Jamie bids on 17:30 - Jun 25 with 4243 views | Brierls |
Our whole business model is built on our ability to develop players and sell them on. The success of this model has meant we are in a better position to negotiate a better deal, but the model remains the same.
It sounds really harsh but Jamie hasn't kicked on as much as I'd hoped since breaking into the side. He's a cracking player, no doubt, but he's not one of the first names on the team sheet for me. There were times last season where I actually thought he slowed us down in the middle of the pitch when the tempo needed to be higher, but he was better in the second half half of the season. That fact that Jamie isn't one of the first names on the team sheet shows how far we have progressed, and to a point how he hasn't progressed at the same rate.
With a year left on his deal, and now apparent interest from the Championship, I would understand if the club felt the time was right to cash in. I think 442Dale has been reaslitic with the price tag too, I wouldn't feel at all robbed by a £500K+ fee (with hefty sell-on), but I suspect the rumoured two bids are some way off that figure anyway. | | | |
| Jamie bids on 10:06 - Jun 26 with 3795 views | TomRAFC |
| Jamie bids on 17:30 - Jun 25 by Brierls |
Our whole business model is built on our ability to develop players and sell them on. The success of this model has meant we are in a better position to negotiate a better deal, but the model remains the same.
It sounds really harsh but Jamie hasn't kicked on as much as I'd hoped since breaking into the side. He's a cracking player, no doubt, but he's not one of the first names on the team sheet for me. There were times last season where I actually thought he slowed us down in the middle of the pitch when the tempo needed to be higher, but he was better in the second half half of the season. That fact that Jamie isn't one of the first names on the team sheet shows how far we have progressed, and to a point how he hasn't progressed at the same rate.
With a year left on his deal, and now apparent interest from the Championship, I would understand if the club felt the time was right to cash in. I think 442Dale has been reaslitic with the price tag too, I wouldn't feel at all robbed by a £500K+ fee (with hefty sell-on), but I suspect the rumoured two bids are some way off that figure anyway. |
Briels is right. I wouldn't like the risk of losing him on a free and midfield 3 of Camps, Keane and Rathbone would be my first choice atm. |  |
| |
| Jamie bids on 11:02 - Jun 26 with 3680 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Jamie bids on 17:30 - Jun 25 by Brierls |
Our whole business model is built on our ability to develop players and sell them on. The success of this model has meant we are in a better position to negotiate a better deal, but the model remains the same.
It sounds really harsh but Jamie hasn't kicked on as much as I'd hoped since breaking into the side. He's a cracking player, no doubt, but he's not one of the first names on the team sheet for me. There were times last season where I actually thought he slowed us down in the middle of the pitch when the tempo needed to be higher, but he was better in the second half half of the season. That fact that Jamie isn't one of the first names on the team sheet shows how far we have progressed, and to a point how he hasn't progressed at the same rate.
With a year left on his deal, and now apparent interest from the Championship, I would understand if the club felt the time was right to cash in. I think 442Dale has been reaslitic with the price tag too, I wouldn't feel at all robbed by a £500K+ fee (with hefty sell-on), but I suspect the rumoured two bids are some way off that figure anyway. |
I think our business model has ratched a little on the quality scale of what we have to sell since its first inception by Hill in 2007.
At that time we were aspirational and didn't control our destiny particularly on timing and fees when it came to selling players prior to his arrival. The sales of Adam Le Fondre for £175k to Rotherham and Ricky Lambert to Bristol Rovers (circa £150k?) with add-ons were the type of deal we were getting.
2017 is massively different. We now have a brilliant acadamy and around 45% of the current squad who have developed their careers either in that acadamy or since acquisition are can realistically be described as saleable assets.
The choice of having to sell is ours - helped by three significant sales in the last ten years; Craig Dawson to West Brom, Matt Done to Sheffield United and Scott Hogan to Brentford. The finances of the club are healthy, we are solvent and own our own ground and we have had incremental money from two of those players due to their success.
With Jamie Allen (and others) there is always the risk that we will lose them for nothing but in the current circumstances there is no financial reason to sell and you could argue that even not first choice Allen is still a key player in this squad - 129 appearances mostly starting appearances says that he will pay a part.
I'd like to see us push the boat out and see if (and who) will be our first £1m sale of a homegrown player. That would set an amazing benchmark for the future and a long term deal can be link to how that player does.
For Allen he has the usual choice of higher level football, more money and playing. I don't think he would be a starter in the Championship just yet and as other have said would be behind Lund who has moved to Burton who themselves will be in the Championship's bottom third - is the footballing reason to move really there?
If Jamie does another three years at Rochdale under contract until he is 25 he will have played another 100 games (subject to injury) and be a 25 year old league one player with 250ish appearances under his belt which is advanced.
We're good at this negotiating lark now - we even got money for George Donnelly! I don't see any more outs before the season starts; the big worry for me is always January's transfer window. |  |
| |
| Jamie bids on 11:49 - Jun 26 with 3540 views | boromat |
| Jamie bids on 11:02 - Jun 26 by RAFCBLUE |
I think our business model has ratched a little on the quality scale of what we have to sell since its first inception by Hill in 2007.
At that time we were aspirational and didn't control our destiny particularly on timing and fees when it came to selling players prior to his arrival. The sales of Adam Le Fondre for £175k to Rotherham and Ricky Lambert to Bristol Rovers (circa £150k?) with add-ons were the type of deal we were getting.
2017 is massively different. We now have a brilliant acadamy and around 45% of the current squad who have developed their careers either in that acadamy or since acquisition are can realistically be described as saleable assets.
The choice of having to sell is ours - helped by three significant sales in the last ten years; Craig Dawson to West Brom, Matt Done to Sheffield United and Scott Hogan to Brentford. The finances of the club are healthy, we are solvent and own our own ground and we have had incremental money from two of those players due to their success.
With Jamie Allen (and others) there is always the risk that we will lose them for nothing but in the current circumstances there is no financial reason to sell and you could argue that even not first choice Allen is still a key player in this squad - 129 appearances mostly starting appearances says that he will pay a part.
I'd like to see us push the boat out and see if (and who) will be our first £1m sale of a homegrown player. That would set an amazing benchmark for the future and a long term deal can be link to how that player does.
For Allen he has the usual choice of higher level football, more money and playing. I don't think he would be a starter in the Championship just yet and as other have said would be behind Lund who has moved to Burton who themselves will be in the Championship's bottom third - is the footballing reason to move really there?
If Jamie does another three years at Rochdale under contract until he is 25 he will have played another 100 games (subject to injury) and be a 25 year old league one player with 250ish appearances under his belt which is advanced.
We're good at this negotiating lark now - we even got money for George Donnelly! I don't see any more outs before the season starts; the big worry for me is always January's transfer window. |
I actually think the Championship would suit Allen more so with it being more technical. He would be a starter for me. He's very different to Lund though you can't compare.
I'm not as confident as you with taking the risk of players going for nothing. Yes we're better off than we have been but we're taking more financial risk than normal already with Season ticket initiatives, buying players and maybe a larger wage budget. I think these extra risks will be being taken with the idea of selling more players. So yes a better financial position but we still need to be selling players and not letting them go for nothing. | |
| |
| Jamie bids on 12:02 - Jun 26 with 3479 views | rochdaleriddler |
Whilst agreeing that we are always going to sell our best players, eventually , I would hope that we are now in a position to only do this when we want to, and for significant sums. Also hopefully spending a good portion of the money on players, not just keeping the club solvent. I really think we can push on this season, we need a couple more players, not to be losing our better ones |  |
| |
| Jamie bids on 12:14 - Jun 26 with 3414 views | fitzochris |
| Jamie bids on 12:02 - Jun 26 by rochdaleriddler |
Whilst agreeing that we are always going to sell our best players, eventually , I would hope that we are now in a position to only do this when we want to, and for significant sums. Also hopefully spending a good portion of the money on players, not just keeping the club solvent. I really think we can push on this season, we need a couple more players, not to be losing our better ones |
Have a look at my previous post. Our whole model is based on selling players we develop. This is because we don’t get massive crowds or sell global merchandise. We cannot pick and choose when to sell them if their value is met. I believe the expression is make hay while the sun shines. There may be a lean period when we have no academy players to sell and we need to rely on the money made from previous sales. | |
| |
| Jamie bids on 12:43 - Jun 26 with 3292 views | SaxonDale |
Whilst I'm not saying we should force Allen to stay, I reckon 500k-even with add-ons shouldn't force us to sell. I know tribunals have a history of undervaluing a player but in Jamie Allen we've got as good a chance as ever to get a fair representation of his value, if needed, in a year's time. He's been at the club since a kid, so we can take full responsibility for his development, gone on to be club captain and he's played 100 odd games for a club across League 1 and 2. It's also important to remember that all tribunals include future sell-ons of players at I think 20%.
Whilst I also agree in principle of our business model of developing players and then selling them on, I think it's important we take into consideration the effect Championship football would have on that model. This being through extra income to the club and also being able to demand higher fees for player's due to our stature and previously mentioned incomes.
I'm surprised Allen is the one demanding the attention and not Camps, as I would agree his career has plateaued a bit since first breaking onto the scene. I still think he's worth hanging onto though as he's certainly one of a few players we have that will lead us closer to the Championship, especially if he can impose himself on matches more consistently. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Jamie bids on 13:09 - Jun 26 with 3163 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Jamie bids on 11:49 - Jun 26 by boromat |
I actually think the Championship would suit Allen more so with it being more technical. He would be a starter for me. He's very different to Lund though you can't compare.
I'm not as confident as you with taking the risk of players going for nothing. Yes we're better off than we have been but we're taking more financial risk than normal already with Season ticket initiatives, buying players and maybe a larger wage budget. I think these extra risks will be being taken with the idea of selling more players. So yes a better financial position but we still need to be selling players and not letting them go for nothing. |
I'm not sure on if Jamie Allen in the Championship would be a success- I don't think has (just yet) the type of tackling skills required to win back the ball compared to others. His technical passing skills are without question but for a creative midfielder he needs to add some goals to his game - 1 goal every 11 games is his current average.
If I was a Championship manager right now with money would I risk £500k or more on him? Hard to answer - certainly I can't think of a team that he would walk into first team football at that levels and I can think of some other League 1 midfielders that I would try to sign before him.
On finanical risks, I've been inclined since January to think that the Board have seen the profit on Hogan sell on to Villa (say £2.0m to £2.5m) as the way of underwriting the next five year plan which has in it getting the club to secure Keith HIll until 2022, reach more fans by being more engaging (particularly on pricing) and having a crack at getting in the Championship - which is a tough ask when you look at the makeup of League One with only three promotion places available.
Saying that, I still think the model will be to sell a player every time there is money to be made and it is worthwhile cashing in but not just for the sake of doing so since the ground is our and the makeup of the league means we can see big away attendances coming from roughly one third of the league. All of which come before the IF of a lucrative cup run.
For Jamie Allen, I think in the financial books of the club he is valueless - he came through the academy from the age of 8, so has cost only the time and resources of that academy over 10 years - all of which was already sunk in the periods post Keith Hill and therefore anything recovered is upside. If we lost him on the Bosman rule then I would have mixed feelings but over four years the zero fee for him has been more than repaid and his wages covered by the four years of successful football he has helped produce.
A better way of framing the question for us would be at what financial point would a bid for Allen be worth taking? We would have to find a replacement and that replacement might not be proven in League 1 which Jamie is.
In our current circumstances, I think it would take the board to see a lot of money on the table and before the aforementioned add-on clauses which are our way of doing transfer business. I can't see it myself right now; I could see it in January if Jamie hasn't signed a new contract but I would think that as a homegrown player he might look at one further contract with Rochdale.
We could (and possibly should) have sold Lund on the equivalent basis in January last season knowning that he would not sign a new contract but decided, rightly or wrongly, to retain him for the season and then allow him the chance to go on a free. Some you win some you lose I guess. | |
| |
| Jamie bids on 13:53 - Jun 26 with 2982 views | Shun |
| Jamie bids on 10:06 - Jun 26 by TomRAFC |
Briels is right. I wouldn't like the risk of losing him on a free and midfield 3 of Camps, Keane and Rathbone would be my first choice atm. |
We wouldn't lose him on a free though. Even if he ran down his contract a fee would be decided by tribunal. See Saxon's excellent post. In light of that, and the circumstances mentioned in RAFCBLUE's post, if we were to sell for £500K I'd feel we'd just had our trousers pulled down. |  | | |
| Jamie bids on 14:52 - Jun 26 with 2785 views | CamdenDale |
Why are we letting contracts on the talent run down? Offer the lad a new 2/3 year deal surely. |  | | |
| Jamie bids on 15:00 - Jun 26 with 2752 views | R17ALE |
| Jamie bids on 14:52 - Jun 26 by CamdenDale |
Why are we letting contracts on the talent run down? Offer the lad a new 2/3 year deal surely. |
How do you know we haven't? |  |
| |
| Jamie bids on 15:04 - Jun 26 with 2727 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Jamie bids on 14:52 - Jun 26 by CamdenDale |
Why are we letting contracts on the talent run down? Offer the lad a new 2/3 year deal surely. |
Are people naive enough to think we would do that? I'm 100% certain we'll be doing everything we can to keep our best players. The progress this club has made on the field with the greatest manager in our history and people still question him on such matters. |  |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
| |
| Jamie bids on 15:13 - Jun 26 with 2676 views | CamdenDale |
| Jamie bids on 15:04 - Jun 26 by ChaffRAFC |
Are people naive enough to think we would do that? I'm 100% certain we'll be doing everything we can to keep our best players. The progress this club has made on the field with the greatest manager in our history and people still question him on such matters. |
No quibbling with best management we've ever had. Always room for improvement though ;). If JA, Camps etc. not on very best we can afford and tied down for 2+ years then we are surely we are missing a trick. The 500k mentioned for Allen is not enough, sell-ons notwithstanding. | | | |
| Jamie bids on 15:27 - Jun 26 with 2607 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Jamie bids on 15:13 - Jun 26 by CamdenDale |
No quibbling with best management we've ever had. Always room for improvement though ;). If JA, Camps etc. not on very best we can afford and tied down for 2+ years then we are surely we are missing a trick. The 500k mentioned for Allen is not enough, sell-ons notwithstanding. |
The point I'm making is that we'll be doing everything we can to keep them, including new deals, they are probably not wanting to extend their contracts. For example, Jamie Allen was very apprehensive about signing his last deal when Bolton and Blackburn were sniffing around him. | |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
| |
| Jamie bids on 15:27 - Jun 26 with 2600 views | CamdenDale |
| Jamie bids on 15:04 - Jun 26 by ChaffRAFC |
Are people naive enough to think we would do that? I'm 100% certain we'll be doing everything we can to keep our best players. The progress this club has made on the field with the greatest manager in our history and people still question him on such matters. |
JA one year left is bonkers in anyone's books. Make the offer better. Held to fortune if we leave every door open so player/agent can negotiate better wage etc. on leaving. Sell, but sell well. | | | |
| Jamie bids on 15:39 - Jun 26 with 2544 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Jamie bids on 15:27 - Jun 26 by CamdenDale |
JA one year left is bonkers in anyone's books. Make the offer better. Held to fortune if we leave every door open so player/agent can negotiate better wage etc. on leaving. Sell, but sell well. |
But if the player wants to explore other options and doesn't want to negotiate then what are you supposed to do? Offer him more than we can afford? That's what Bury do. We are most certainly not Bury! | |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
| |
| Jamie bids on 15:42 - Jun 26 with 2528 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Jamie bids on 15:27 - Jun 26 by ChaffRAFC |
The point I'm making is that we'll be doing everything we can to keep them, including new deals, they are probably not wanting to extend their contracts. For example, Jamie Allen was very apprehensive about signing his last deal when Bolton and Blackburn were sniffing around him. |
I think if a player is apprehensive about a deal they should first and foremost think "Will I be playing at the club I sign for?"
I saw a Sky interview with Callum Chambers, the Arsenal fullback, PR hyping what a "great season" he thought he had had playing on loan at Middlesbrough and commenting on whether he would be at Arsenal next season his view was he wondered if he would play.
If Jamie needed any confirmation that signing that last contract was better than Bolton/Blackburn he need only look at their fortunes during the same period with us and ask if he would have played the same number of games as he has in that period for them.
The grass is always potentially financially greener and if you want to exemplify two ex players then Dawson and Hogan are the ones to try and emulate; stayed for just the right time - sold to the right club and play week in week out.
I think with Hill in for five years any player should trust he has their best long term interest at heart. | |
| |
| Jamie bids on 15:45 - Jun 26 with 2507 views | CamdenDale |
| Jamie bids on 15:39 - Jun 26 by ChaffRAFC |
But if the player wants to explore other options and doesn't want to negotiate then what are you supposed to do? Offer him more than we can afford? That's what Bury do. We are most certainly not Bury! |
Buying players in on silly contracts is not what we're talking about re Bury. JA should feel secure, well paid and not held back when the time comes. If a two year contract for the lad is beyond us... | | | |
| Jamie bids on 15:51 - Jun 26 with 2486 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Jamie bids on 15:45 - Jun 26 by CamdenDale |
Buying players in on silly contracts is not what we're talking about re Bury. JA should feel secure, well paid and not held back when the time comes. If a two year contract for the lad is beyond us... |
Obviously it wouldn't be but if his agent is telling him he can play Championship football and get a wage beyond our means then there's nothing more we can do. We shouldn't be breaking the bank to keep players who are ready and want to explore better options than ourselves. That's how we run as a club. | |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
| |
| Jamie bids on 15:58 - Jun 26 with 2450 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Jamie bids on 15:42 - Jun 26 by RAFCBLUE |
I think if a player is apprehensive about a deal they should first and foremost think "Will I be playing at the club I sign for?"
I saw a Sky interview with Callum Chambers, the Arsenal fullback, PR hyping what a "great season" he thought he had had playing on loan at Middlesbrough and commenting on whether he would be at Arsenal next season his view was he wondered if he would play.
If Jamie needed any confirmation that signing that last contract was better than Bolton/Blackburn he need only look at their fortunes during the same period with us and ask if he would have played the same number of games as he has in that period for them.
The grass is always potentially financially greener and if you want to exemplify two ex players then Dawson and Hogan are the ones to try and emulate; stayed for just the right time - sold to the right club and play week in week out.
I think with Hill in for five years any player should trust he has their best long term interest at heart. |
How does this differ from any other player we've sold or lost. Everyone wished Matty Lund well going to Burton. Why should Jamie stay if he has better offers coming in? Why are we presuming that Jamie can't get game time at a Bolton? As for Hogan? He left at the right time yes, one season he had at Rochdale. Jamie has been with us for years and deserves a shot at bettering himself. Football is a very short career. If he wants to leave then wish him well and let him do so. | |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
| |
| Jamie bids on 16:01 - Jun 26 with 2434 views | CamdenDale |
There are so many variables here. Foremost is the question of how good Allen is. If he or the club consider a move to an average Championship club, no doubt in debt and who change managers every three months, think it's worth it for us to get £500k and 15k a week for the player, is the best all round, then fair play. I just think we can play this a bit smarter. | | | |
| Jamie bids on 16:06 - Jun 26 with 2398 views | CamdenDale |
Yes, I know we're not privy to anything, all conjecture.
But set your stall out. Allen, Camps et al with new contracts photo'd in front of the ground sets a tone. | | | |
| Jamie bids on 16:24 - Jun 26 with 2292 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Jamie bids on 16:06 - Jun 26 by CamdenDale |
Yes, I know we're not privy to anything, all conjecture.
But set your stall out. Allen, Camps et al with new contracts photo'd in front of the ground sets a tone. |
But if they don't want to, you can't force them to do so. A new contract puts their value up considerably and potentially prices them out of a move they deserve. They're probably keeping their options open. | |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
| |
| Jamie bids on 16:39 - Jun 26 with 2219 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Jamie bids on 15:58 - Jun 26 by ChaffRAFC |
How does this differ from any other player we've sold or lost. Everyone wished Matty Lund well going to Burton. Why should Jamie stay if he has better offers coming in? Why are we presuming that Jamie can't get game time at a Bolton? As for Hogan? He left at the right time yes, one season he had at Rochdale. Jamie has been with us for years and deserves a shot at bettering himself. Football is a very short career. If he wants to leave then wish him well and let him do so. |
I think this is different since the circumstances being outlined here are that Jamie Allen might move in this transfer window whilst under a playing contract that has a full year (?) left to run. The conjecture is that he wouldn't be happy to sign a new deal here at the end of the season so would prefer to move now.
If it is that case then the club and particularly Keith Hill get to decide if they support the move - not the player or his representative.
Jamie (or his representative) would need to hand in a transfer request and the last person to do that was Craig Dawson before he signed the last deal here before he went to WBA. Notwithstanding a transfer request, pre-season training starts in a week so I don't think the move is well timed this early in the window.
When Jamie Allen leaves Rochdale for a bigger club (which is ultimately inevitable) I can't think of someone who won't wish him well. The wider point for me is if we choose to cash in this August.
We didn't with Lund but could have done - football coming in over money both in August and January. For what it's worth I think Lund has moved at the right time of his career to the Championship but chose the favourites for relegation in Burton. Lund's 2017/18 season is pivotal if he wants to be anything more than a League 1 player.
I also don't believe Jamie's development for 2017/18 would be helped by specifically joining Bolton. I think all the midfielders Bolton have currently signed are better than Jamie (most of which are older) and they will be looking at other options. That would mean at best a squad slot for Jamie in the Championship with the risks that come with that in the short term, but offset by more money than he currently earns here.
The club have a record of not standing in player's way as Dawson and Hogan proved but it has to be at the right time and place and I don't see Bolton being able to put the sort of money on the table in August that would allow the deal to happen.
My backstop to all of this is that at 22 Jamie Allen has his best years to come but has this opportunity due to the time and effort and skill he has put into his Rochdale career.
I think if he was to sign a new deal to take him to 2019/20 he could at that point (and likely before) have his pick of the Championship or Premier League clubs if he continues to improve without the unneeded career risk at 22 - where he has potential but is not the finished article. [Post edited 26 Jun 2017 16:40]
| |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
