| Les Ferdinand — Patreon 09:07 - Feb 9 with 20074 views | Northernr |
So.... Interview with Les, fresh off the plane from Heathrow after a scouting trip yesterday.
Tried to ask as many of the points that have come up on here as possible.
Read it here...
https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/news/59547
Everybody can listen to it on the Patreon whether subscriber or not (we've made this one a free view, it didn't feel right to paywall it given the significance of the interview and the timing, so apologies to our subscribers for that but I hope you understand)
https://www.patreon.com/LoftForWords |  | | |  |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:30 - Feb 10 with 1965 views | daveB |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:17 - Feb 10 by Monkey_Roots |
Sorry if this is agonisingly painful to keep answering questions about, but...
So if a FFP cycle is 3 years...
Let's say, just for example, that 2018 is the start of FFP rules and regs.
Club A keep their losses to 38m when the first 3 year cycle is up in 2021 - does the 2018 year then fall away? (inc the losses for that year - say they were 10 million), so now 2019 (8m) and 2020 (10m) become our base figure, and in the 2021 year's losses then come in as the 3rd year in the cycle ready to be reviewed in 2022... then it continues on like that — the 1st year of each 3 year cycle falls away?
or does it go 2018—2021 as the 3 year cycle - gets reviewed, and then you start from £0 again for the next 3 year cycle?
My brain hurts just thinking about it. |
basically the 3 year rolling period would be 2018 - 2021, when you get to 2022 the 3 years is 2019-2022 and then the following year 2020-2023 and so on
So for us in 2020 we sold Eze for £16-20million which is still in the cycle until 2023, when you get to 2024 that £20million income is gone and unless you've sold someone else you are likely to be breaching the rules |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:31 - Feb 10 with 1961 views | Northernr |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:30 - Feb 10 by daveB |
basically the 3 year rolling period would be 2018 - 2021, when you get to 2022 the 3 years is 2019-2022 and then the following year 2020-2023 and so on
So for us in 2020 we sold Eze for £16-20million which is still in the cycle until 2023, when you get to 2024 that £20million income is gone and unless you've sold someone else you are likely to be breaching the rules |
This. Basically we need an Eze-style sale once every three years.
Or a sort of Chris Mepham/Ezri Konsa £8m-10m sale every 18 months.
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:31 - Feb 10 with 1959 views | SimonD |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:17 - Feb 10 by Monkey_Roots |
Sorry if this is agonisingly painful to keep answering questions about, but...
So if a FFP cycle is 3 years...
Let's say, just for example, that 2018 is the start of FFP rules and regs.
Club A keep their losses to 38m when the first 3 year cycle is up in 2021 - does the 2018 year then fall away? (inc the losses for that year - say they were 10 million), so now 2019 (8m) and 2020 (10m) become our base figure, and in the 2021 year's losses then come in as the 3rd year in the cycle ready to be reviewed in 2022... then it continues on like that — the 1st year of each 3 year cycle falls away?
or does it go 2018—2021 as the 3 year cycle - gets reviewed, and then you start from £0 again for the next 3 year cycle?
My brain hurts just thinking about it. |
It is a 3-year rolling period, try to forget the word cycle as that is misleading.
As every season passes, the oldest year in the reporting period rolls out and the current year comes in. |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:35 - Feb 10 with 1937 views | PinnerPaul |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:19 - Feb 10 by SimonD |
The historic fine is purely cash flow and has no bearing on our current situation. The cost of the fine was in the 2017/18 accounts. The accounting treatment of it continues until it is fully paid, but is outside of the scope of FFP. |
Yep - so that's 5.1M we can take off our spend/loss over a 3 year period. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:36 - Feb 10 with 1931 views | SimonD |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:30 - Feb 10 by daveB |
basically the 3 year rolling period would be 2018 - 2021, when you get to 2022 the 3 years is 2019-2022 and then the following year 2020-2023 and so on
So for us in 2020 we sold Eze for £16-20million which is still in the cycle until 2023, when you get to 2024 that £20million income is gone and unless you've sold someone else you are likely to be breaching the rules |
Yes, except the Covid seasons (2019/20 and 2020/21) are being treated as one. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:39 - Feb 10 with 1912 views | SimonD |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:35 - Feb 10 by PinnerPaul |
Yep - so that's 5.1M we can take off our spend/loss over a 3 year period. |
Sadly not, as it doesn't show in our "profit" figure as it has already been accounted for. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:41 - Feb 10 with 1898 views | PinnerPaul |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:22 - Feb 10 by Wegerles_Stairs |
I still don't understand why FFP hasn't been properly challenged in the courts as a restraint of trade - how can a business be told it can only invest so much? It's crazy. Also, it's completely unfair - it costs far more to run a club and stadium in the middle of London than one in a northern town, yet both clubs have the same £39m barrier. [Post edited 10 Feb 2023 10:23]
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I guess because by signing up to the competition, you agree to abide by the rules.
BUT, I', no legal expert, but I always thought you couldn't contract out of common law.
For example all these signs at car parks saying that the owners are not liable for ANY damage to your car, HOWEVER caused - can't be legally binding - if a chunk of Tesco's roof blows off because they haven't maintained it and it wrecks your car - that's down to them, whatever they say on the signs.
I suppose the answer to your question is who is going out on a limb to challenge FFP and where is that money in legals coming from? | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:43 - Feb 10 with 1888 views | PinnerPaul |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:27 - Feb 10 by SimonD |
Just to clarify this, the problem we will have is not when last season's accounts are published very shortly (although they will give a strong pointer), nor when this season's accounts are published, but the following season's. Next summer is our best opportunity to sell a couple of players to prevent this.
For those frustrated by a lack on information coming from the club regarding this, there is no way they can publicly discuss this. If there was any sign that we were desperate to sell, the offers for our players would be drastically reduced. |
and breathe , "We'll all be millionaires this time next year"  | | | |
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:44 - Feb 10 with 1880 views | PinnerPaul |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:39 - Feb 10 by SimonD |
Sadly not, as it doesn't show in our "profit" figure as it has already been accounted for. |
They wrote it all off in one year you mean?
Why did they do that do you think? | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:50 - Feb 10 with 1867 views | Monkey_Roots |
But if you get promoted, does the rolling 3-year period then just stop and resume again when you are relegated, or does it just cease?
I am learning so much about this through you lot, I really appreciate you taking the time to go through it. I've been a fan since I was a nipper, a supporter in the stadium over the years (but never a season ticket holder - one day when the kids are all grown up)... but I've never really gone in depth on things like finances and strategies, plans etc.
It's interesting stuff, and equally frustrating, but I guess its better to know that be oblivious.
Cheers. |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:57 - Feb 10 with 1852 views | SimonD |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:44 - Feb 10 by PinnerPaul |
They wrote it all off in one year you mean?
Why did they do that do you think? |
They had no choice. That was when the fine was incurred. The staged payment terms are irrelevant to the profit and loss, but outside of any future FFP calculations.
FFP only looks at the profit and loss account which deals with revenue and costs. The balance sheet shows assets, liabilities and equity.
When the fine was incurred (well, agreed) it hits the profit and loss in its entirety, with a liability set up in the balance sheet. Each payment of this reduces what is owed (balance sheet) and takes money out of the bank (balance sheet). No effect on the PnL.
There is a "weird" accounting protocol which will rumble on until the fine is paid in full but all outside of FFP. I'm not sure going into details is going to help anyone who doesn't already know about it. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 11:01 - Feb 10 with 1837 views | SimonD |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:50 - Feb 10 by Monkey_Roots |
But if you get promoted, does the rolling 3-year period then just stop and resume again when you are relegated, or does it just cease?
I am learning so much about this through you lot, I really appreciate you taking the time to go through it. I've been a fan since I was a nipper, a supporter in the stadium over the years (but never a season ticket holder - one day when the kids are all grown up)... but I've never really gone in depth on things like finances and strategies, plans etc.
It's interesting stuff, and equally frustrating, but I guess its better to know that be oblivious.
Cheers. |
In theory no. Premier League teams are allowed to lose up to £35m per season as opposed to our £13m per season, but it should be seamless. When the EFL changed their rules it was, in part, to dovetail with the Premier League. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 11:28 - Feb 10 with 1745 views | PinnerPaul |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:57 - Feb 10 by SimonD |
They had no choice. That was when the fine was incurred. The staged payment terms are irrelevant to the profit and loss, but outside of any future FFP calculations.
FFP only looks at the profit and loss account which deals with revenue and costs. The balance sheet shows assets, liabilities and equity.
When the fine was incurred (well, agreed) it hits the profit and loss in its entirety, with a liability set up in the balance sheet. Each payment of this reduces what is owed (balance sheet) and takes money out of the bank (balance sheet). No effect on the PnL.
There is a "weird" accounting protocol which will rumble on until the fine is paid in full but all outside of FFP. I'm not sure going into details is going to help anyone who doesn't already know about it. |
Perfect!
Thanks | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 11:33 - Feb 10 with 1728 views | dmm |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 09:52 - Feb 10 by hubble |
Jesus H Christ. This contradicts what Dave M just said above. It's insane. It's like we're stuck in a Kafka novel with no ending.
If Danny could just add blue and white hoops to this..
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Ah, I thought you were referring to the FFP fine, Hud. As has been pointed out, we're in the tunnel until the football authorities change the rules. |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 11:33 - Feb 10 with 1714 views | paulparker |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:50 - Feb 10 by Monkey_Roots |
But if you get promoted, does the rolling 3-year period then just stop and resume again when you are relegated, or does it just cease?
I am learning so much about this through you lot, I really appreciate you taking the time to go through it. I've been a fan since I was a nipper, a supporter in the stadium over the years (but never a season ticket holder - one day when the kids are all grown up)... but I've never really gone in depth on things like finances and strategies, plans etc.
It's interesting stuff, and equally frustrating, but I guess its better to know that be oblivious.
Cheers. |
Your not going to put your kids through what we suffered are you Monkey |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 11:36 - Feb 10 with 1714 views | Monkey_Roots |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 11:33 - Feb 10 by paulparker |
Your not going to put your kids through what we suffered are you Monkey |
I'd love to, but it's the money really PP — they've been to the odd game, but a season ticket would cripple us. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 11:51 - Feb 10 with 1673 views | CroydonCaptJack |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 11:36 - Feb 10 by Monkey_Roots |
I'd love to, but it's the money really PP — they've been to the odd game, but a season ticket would cripple us. |
Emotionally as well as financially mate. |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 13:02 - Feb 10 with 1444 views | derbyhoop |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 12:35 - Feb 9 by stainrods_elbow |
Having listened through that, I remain of the view that LF is well-intentioned and cares about QPR, but is uninspiring at best and more often fatalistic and excuse-ridden (COVID, FFP, P &S, EPPP, or whatever acronym is being wheeled in as an excuse for failure at QPR this week) when it comes to accounting for our multiple failings as a football club. In the end, he seems to agree we aren't delivering from top to bottom but has little or no optimism to share with the fanbase going forwards and nothing to say as to why we've fallen/are falling behind Fulham, Brentford and now even the likes of Luton. When he signed off with the lame claim that he's 'too honest' and he gets lynched for it, I just thought of Prince Andrew and his 'too honourable' lament. That's just dismal, Les.
In short, a fair, sustained and sober performance by the interviewer, but an interview that leaves my head in my hands. |
I'm not expecting fanfares but, just for once, could you stop carping at the club's failings and contribute something positive.
Since we dropped out of PL, we've cut spending dramatically whilst, mostly comfortably, maintaing Championship status on a L1 budget.
We all want more success and continual criticism, without balance, is unwarranted |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 13:03 - Feb 10 with 1446 views | QPR_Jim |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 10:27 - Feb 10 by SimonD |
Just to clarify this, the problem we will have is not when last season's accounts are published very shortly (although they will give a strong pointer), nor when this season's accounts are published, but the following season's. Next summer is our best opportunity to sell a couple of players to prevent this.
For those frustrated by a lack on information coming from the club regarding this, there is no way they can publicly discuss this. If there was any sign that we were desperate to sell, the offers for our players would be drastically reduced. |
The thing about the club being careful about what they say and wanting to know where other clubs are with FFP, shouldn't we have all the data to make an educated guess at this anyway?
I remember your very detail article assessing our finances, previous years are obviously a matter of record as each club have to publish the accounts. I think you had to make some projections on the current year base on previous years while waiting for it to be published but things like player sales and signing fees are a bit difficult to guess.
Except QPR scout a lot of players and that must include likely transfer fee and wage demands. So if a player we scouted goes to Cardiff for example, we should be able to have a reasonable guess at how mush it cost them, if one of their players is sold to Newcastle the club should be able to have a reasonable guess at the transfer fee required etc. Even the loan fees should be able to be worked out with a degree of accuracy.
I understand it wouldn't be 100% accurate but if we're not doing this, it should surely be worthwhile. We would at least be able to work out which clubs are more likely to be desperate to sell or if they're coming to us for our players, able to pay more. |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 13:21 - Feb 10 with 1400 views | terryb |
Thank you Clive. I enjoyed listening to the interview even though I thought LF was too protective of employees at times.
However, the two items that stood out to me were:-
1) The owners WANT to "invest" more cash into the club, but are not allowed to.
This would sugest that they understand FFP & will do all they can not to repeat our transgression. It seemed to me that they won't be selling the club any time soon. It also made me concerned that if we somehow managed to reach The Premier, all restraints would be off & we would repeat the Fernandes madness. That would be a worry!
2) In reply to the Chris Willock contract situation, LF appeared to sugest that negoiations will be taking place & might be sucessful. I thought he hinted that out of contract players can't expect to receive offers of higher wages from Championship clubs that would have previously been offered & this could help the discussions.
Or, have I totally misunderstood these two points? | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 13:23 - Feb 10 with 1399 views | Northernr |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 13:21 - Feb 10 by terryb |
Thank you Clive. I enjoyed listening to the interview even though I thought LF was too protective of employees at times.
However, the two items that stood out to me were:-
1) The owners WANT to "invest" more cash into the club, but are not allowed to.
This would sugest that they understand FFP & will do all they can not to repeat our transgression. It seemed to me that they won't be selling the club any time soon. It also made me concerned that if we somehow managed to reach The Premier, all restraints would be off & we would repeat the Fernandes madness. That would be a worry!
2) In reply to the Chris Willock contract situation, LF appeared to sugest that negoiations will be taking place & might be sucessful. I thought he hinted that out of contract players can't expect to receive offers of higher wages from Championship clubs that would have previously been offered & this could help the discussions.
Or, have I totally misunderstood these two points? |
Exactly as I read both those situations too. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 13:26 - Feb 10 with 1385 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 13:02 - Feb 10 by derbyhoop |
I'm not expecting fanfares but, just for once, could you stop carping at the club's failings and contribute something positive.
Since we dropped out of PL, we've cut spending dramatically whilst, mostly comfortably, maintaing Championship status on a L1 budget.
We all want more success and continual criticism, without balance, is unwarranted |
 |  | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 13:28 - Feb 10 with 1383 views | R_from_afar |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 21:14 - Feb 9 by JPC |
Clive, thanks for the brilliant interview. I read it first, then listened to it, and it can’t be easy asking so many pointed questions knowing that they may be near the knuckle for the recipient. I thought on the whole Les’ responses were pretty good, considering that it all looks a bit gloomy. I think he does a good job of describing the balancing act the board have, of reducing the wage bill by some 80% (success I think), developing the training ground and academy, but not seeing young players coming through - which I think must count as a failure for now.
I do find it interesting that some posters have said that he worries too much what the supporters think - and I agree up to a point - but I think he realises that supporters are the club and its that balancing act that’s so hard.
I felt that it was a great insight into just how hard a position we’ve been in and continue to be in with no simple solutions |
That echoes my thoughts about the article. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 14:30 - Feb 10 with 1206 views | SimonD |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 13:03 - Feb 10 by QPR_Jim |
The thing about the club being careful about what they say and wanting to know where other clubs are with FFP, shouldn't we have all the data to make an educated guess at this anyway?
I remember your very detail article assessing our finances, previous years are obviously a matter of record as each club have to publish the accounts. I think you had to make some projections on the current year base on previous years while waiting for it to be published but things like player sales and signing fees are a bit difficult to guess.
Except QPR scout a lot of players and that must include likely transfer fee and wage demands. So if a player we scouted goes to Cardiff for example, we should be able to have a reasonable guess at how mush it cost them, if one of their players is sold to Newcastle the club should be able to have a reasonable guess at the transfer fee required etc. Even the loan fees should be able to be worked out with a degree of accuracy.
I understand it wouldn't be 100% accurate but if we're not doing this, it should surely be worthwhile. We would at least be able to work out which clubs are more likely to be desperate to sell or if they're coming to us for our players, able to pay more. |
The data we all have access to is historic, not current. That leaves enough room for some doubt. However, I don't disagree that we all could have a pretty good idea of where everyone else stands if we so desired. There is no mileage in confirming a bad position though. | | | |
| Les Ferdinand — Patreon on 14:36 - Feb 10 with 1155 views | stainrods_elbow |
Hilarious photo/caption - I laughed so hard it broke my head! If you'd exactly reversed it, we might have had a plausible picture.
Unlike some other posters, I actually provide arguments, polemics and critiques that attempt to expose the contradictions, assumptions and dubious lenses (as far as possible) of others, and I've been more measured than some in my response to the LF interview anyway - but of course the culture of conformity is entrenched in many cases, and thinking for oneself is effortful. So have a word with yourself, eh, before blowing a great f*cking tuba in my face. |  |
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