| £32,000 per year 06:39 - Jan 20 with 19032 views | raynor94 |
Should you be using a food bank?
It's come up this week a nurse has said that's what she earns and can't survive without a food bank.
A Tory mp has said on the airwaves that there is something wrong with her budgetin skills, in this instance i haveto agree with him.
And how does she get a voucher earning that type of money, thoughts? |  |
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| £32,000 per year on 06:28 - Jan 27 with 1421 views | mangohilljack |
| £32,000 per year on 06:08 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
It’s a completely different cost of living so it’s all relative.
Australia’s main cities have a cost of living which is 40% higher than that of Cardiff for example.
Take that £32k and go to parts of Asia and you would live like a multi millionaire. |
Very good point but even when you head 50k outside of the CBD's the salaries are very similar for the same jobs at least they are up here in Queensland. Totally agree with what you are saying about the cost of living though as house prices are almost doubling up here compared to what they were 5-10 years ago. Even rent is going through the roof as there are not enough houses around to accomadate the huge influx of people over the last couple of years.
every time I head to the beach I have to drive past many tents and car parks full of homeless people living in their cars but you won't see anything on the media. [Post edited 27 Jan 2023 6:29]
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| £32,000 per year on 06:33 - Jan 27 with 1393 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Average base salary of a barrister in Manchester is £44,000.
£2828 per month after tax and national insurance.
£115 per month student loan repayment (based on 50k debt on above salary)
£2713 remaining to budget from as a start point.
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/75352889#/?channel=STU_LET
£576 rent
£288 utilities (heating, gas and electric)
£79 public transport (monthly pass)
£460 food (monthly household average)
£100 clothing
£100 health and medical
£50 internet
£50 phone
£50 SKY and TV subscriptions
= £1753
£960 remaining. I was kind as these averages are not based on a single person and more for a family.
What have I left out?
(Edit just realised there is internet included in that rent, add another £50 to the savings pile). [Post edited 27 Jan 2023 6:49]
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| £32,000 per year on 07:21 - Jan 27 with 1361 views | Sirjohnalot |
| £32,000 per year on 06:33 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
Average base salary of a barrister in Manchester is £44,000.
£2828 per month after tax and national insurance.
£115 per month student loan repayment (based on 50k debt on above salary)
£2713 remaining to budget from as a start point.
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/75352889#/?channel=STU_LET
£576 rent
£288 utilities (heating, gas and electric)
£79 public transport (monthly pass)
£460 food (monthly household average)
£100 clothing
£100 health and medical
£50 internet
£50 phone
£50 SKY and TV subscriptions
= £1753
£960 remaining. I was kind as these averages are not based on a single person and more for a family.
What have I left out?
(Edit just realised there is internet included in that rent, add another £50 to the savings pile). [Post edited 27 Jan 2023 6:49]
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They’re criminal barristers. Relatively newly qualified .
Your figures are very inaccurate. Their pay back on loans are far higher, rent far higher, chambers expenses not included. You’re wrong on this one
A lot of relatively newly qualified criminal barristers are on less than minimum wage. I’m 20 years in. These guys aren’t. Fees can be delayed for years as you don’t get paid till case finishes. I’ve cases going back years. I’ve a trial which has been adjourned three times. Going a year down the line each time.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| £32,000 per year on 08:02 - Jan 27 with 1324 views | Boundy |
| £32,000 per year on 01:56 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
It’s not a generalisation, your first house purchase isn’t usually the average market price, it’s the bottom of the ladder type house.
So again, £50 a week for 5 years is £12,000.
I’m not saying don’t eat, as you know full well. I’m saying cut back £50 a week on fast food and Starbucks, they are not essential to survival.
They are luxury items. |
Yes it is , the houses in the price range you quote are being bought for buy to let ,I know a few with with 2 -3 houses in their portfolio, so one person owning 3 houses which are not on the market are 3 houses non available Many ex council houses are a perfect example . Some are now selling up due to the raise in interest rates which in turn will release more onto the market lowing the market price , that's how it works ,supply & demand , albeit slowly . | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| £32,000 per year (n/t) on 08:59 - Jan 27 with 1284 views | Togg |
[Post edited 27 Jan 2023 9:07]
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| £32,000 per year on 09:58 - Jan 27 with 1247 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| £32,000 per year on 07:21 - Jan 27 by Sirjohnalot |
They’re criminal barristers. Relatively newly qualified .
Your figures are very inaccurate. Their pay back on loans are far higher, rent far higher, chambers expenses not included. You’re wrong on this one
A lot of relatively newly qualified criminal barristers are on less than minimum wage. I’m 20 years in. These guys aren’t. Fees can be delayed for years as you don’t get paid till case finishes. I’ve cases going back years. I’ve a trial which has been adjourned three times. Going a year down the line each time.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
I wasn’t guessing, these are the exact amounts you pay back on student loans for that salary. If they earn less then that £115 goes down.
You say their rent is far higher, but I’m showing you it doesn’t need to be. Perfectly good home there to rent for the price listed.
Ok let’s say they are on £25,000 a year.
That’s £2083 take home after national insurance. You do not have to pay back student loan at this level of salary.
£1703 are the outgoings.
£380 per month (per 4 weeks) spare. 13 sets of 4 weeks in a year.
£380 x 13 = £4940 per year.
Deposit saved in 3 years. | |
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| £32,000 per year on 10:14 - Jan 27 with 1227 views | Sirjohnalot |
| £32,000 per year on 09:58 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
I wasn’t guessing, these are the exact amounts you pay back on student loans for that salary. If they earn less then that £115 goes down.
You say their rent is far higher, but I’m showing you it doesn’t need to be. Perfectly good home there to rent for the price listed.
Ok let’s say they are on £25,000 a year.
That’s £2083 take home after national insurance. You do not have to pay back student loan at this level of salary.
£1703 are the outgoings.
£380 per month (per 4 weeks) spare. 13 sets of 4 weeks in a year.
£380 x 13 = £4940 per year.
Deposit saved in 3 years. |
You are wrong;. They've told me what their paybacks are and it is nothing like that. You are wrong again with the rental market. You do not live here, you have no idea what the situation is on the ground, some of the cheaper places, are either in really dangerous areas or the conditions are so poor, no one would live there. | | | |
| £32,000 per year on 10:26 - Jan 27 with 1210 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| £32,000 per year on 10:14 - Jan 27 by Sirjohnalot |
You are wrong;. They've told me what their paybacks are and it is nothing like that. You are wrong again with the rental market. You do not live here, you have no idea what the situation is on the ground, some of the cheaper places, are either in really dangerous areas or the conditions are so poor, no one would live there. |
Nothing wrong about it.
It’s not subjective, these student returns are structured the same for everyone.
Here is a salary calculator, you type in your student loan, your annual salary and it works out the deductions for you based on the Government rules.
Quite simply if they have told you another figure, you have either misunderstood or THEY are wrong. This is literally what it is:-
https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php
Rentals are searchable, I already gave you a perfectly good example. I know Manchester very well.
Here’s one in Didsbury, one of the most sought after areas in Manchester with an extremely low crime rate:-
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/131105390#/?channel=RES_LET
You say I’m wrong but you aren’t bringing forward any figures to counter it.
Tell me where my numbers are incorrect. I’ve just showed you the student loan payback rules, I’ve shown you available rentals in sought after areas, I’ve given you a £44k salary and a £25k salary. | |
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| £32,000 per year on 10:35 - Jan 27 with 1205 views | Sirjohnalot |
| £32,000 per year on 10:26 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
Nothing wrong about it.
It’s not subjective, these student returns are structured the same for everyone.
Here is a salary calculator, you type in your student loan, your annual salary and it works out the deductions for you based on the Government rules.
Quite simply if they have told you another figure, you have either misunderstood or THEY are wrong. This is literally what it is:-
https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php
Rentals are searchable, I already gave you a perfectly good example. I know Manchester very well.
Here’s one in Didsbury, one of the most sought after areas in Manchester with an extremely low crime rate:-
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/131105390#/?channel=RES_LET
You say I’m wrong but you aren’t bringing forward any figures to counter it.
Tell me where my numbers are incorrect. I’ve just showed you the student loan payback rules, I’ve shown you available rentals in sought after areas, I’ve given you a £44k salary and a £25k salary. |
They are wrong about their own finances and you are right ? Ok | | | |
| £32,000 per year on 10:37 - Jan 27 with 1199 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Now here’s a story of experience. Nigh on 15 years ago I moved to London, probably not far off what we are talking about on the OP salary wise, not a great deal for London. Couldn’t afford a car, walked to work, rented a room not a house, not an apartment… a room. Student loan, public transport - the lot. Never upgraded my phone, never bought lavish things…
Never once moaned, never once blamed anyone, never once felt sorry for myself. Saw it as the land of opportunity and worked hard to improve what I had rather than wallow in it and blame others. Worked my way upwards using the fact I could only afford a room in a shared house as motivation to succeed, making sure I would jump at any and all opportunities I could carve out.
15 years later and on many multiples of that salary, and that room in London feels light years away. At no point did I want or feel I was owed anything instantly without working my way up for it and that’s been the key in my career and will be the key in my life until the day I die.
So that is why I have an aversion to these excuses. I’ve heard them time and time again even from my friends back home, once I go through it with them it’s always the same. “Yeah I could do that but I wouldn’t”. That’s what it comes down to.
If you want something enough, you will do it. If you don’t then you will look for blame and put barriers up to avoid the graft of getting on the road to get there. | |
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| £32,000 per year on 10:40 - Jan 27 with 1195 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| £32,000 per year on 10:35 - Jan 27 by Sirjohnalot |
They are wrong about their own finances and you are right ? Ok |
You do realise that student loan repayments are standardised don’t you? They are based on a 4 grade system depending on date and location of study.
But they are all very similar.
I’ve literally given you the calculator.
It’s not subjective.
What are you claiming they are paying back then? And then show me the Government pay back scheme that fits that number. You won’t be able to. | |
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| £32,000 per year on 10:50 - Jan 27 with 1185 views | Dr_Parnassus |
So it’s 9% on anything earned above the England and Wales threshold of £27,295.
So if they are on £20k as you alluded to then they will not be repaying anything at all.
If they are on £44k in my first example then they would pay 9% on the difference between that and the threshold.
9% of £16,705 = £1503 per annum.
£1503/52X4 = £115.65 per monthly pay cycle.
Literally from the Government website. These calculations are the same whether you owe £10,000 or £100,000.
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| £32,000 per year on 11:24 - Jan 27 with 1154 views | Boundy |
| £32,000 per year on 10:50 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
So it’s 9% on anything earned above the England and Wales threshold of £27,295.
So if they are on £20k as you alluded to then they will not be repaying anything at all.
If they are on £44k in my first example then they would pay 9% on the difference between that and the threshold.
9% of £16,705 = £1503 per annum.
£1503/52X4 = £115.65 per monthly pay cycle.
Literally from the Government website. These calculations are the same whether you owe £10,000 or £100,000.
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Just a small reminder , not everyone has a student loan , not everyone has the same opportunities ,not everyone are on average wages, in fact life isn't a spreadsheet . | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| £32,000 per year on 11:26 - Jan 27 with 1148 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| £32,000 per year on 11:24 - Jan 27 by Boundy |
Just a small reminder , not everyone has a student loan , not everyone has the same opportunities ,not everyone are on average wages, in fact life isn't a spreadsheet . |
If you don’t have a student loan then excellent. But I am addressing the examples that John raised that do, and used that as the reason they couldn’t save.
If you don’t have a student loan and are on a lesser wage, there is an example of £25,000 salary above.
If you are on £18,000 or £20,000 I’ll be able to adapt that for you too.
Whichever salary you throw at me, I will show you how you can save £50 a week as a young person with no children or no large credit card debt. | |
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| £32,000 per year on 11:41 - Jan 27 with 1126 views | ThurrockJack92 |
| £32,000 per year on 11:26 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
If you don’t have a student loan then excellent. But I am addressing the examples that John raised that do, and used that as the reason they couldn’t save.
If you don’t have a student loan and are on a lesser wage, there is an example of £25,000 salary above.
If you are on £18,000 or £20,000 I’ll be able to adapt that for you too.
Whichever salary you throw at me, I will show you how you can save £50 a week as a young person with no children or no large credit card debt. |
No one is denying that you need to make sacrifices to afford to buy. The point that is being made is that there are people on the lower end of the earnings scale that could buy in yesteryear by making said sacrifices, but that is no longer true today as earnings have not kept pace with house prices.
It doesn't matter if you can save a deposit if the starter home you would buy went from being X times your salary to Y times you salary, with banks only willing to loan closer to X.
Burying your head in the sand and just repeating Daily Mail mantras will just ensure that the situation continues to get worse and more and more people will find themselves locked out of homeownership as time goes on. |  | | |
| £32,000 per year on 11:48 - Jan 27 with 1116 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| £32,000 per year on 11:41 - Jan 27 by ThurrockJack92 |
No one is denying that you need to make sacrifices to afford to buy. The point that is being made is that there are people on the lower end of the earnings scale that could buy in yesteryear by making said sacrifices, but that is no longer true today as earnings have not kept pace with house prices.
It doesn't matter if you can save a deposit if the starter home you would buy went from being X times your salary to Y times you salary, with banks only willing to loan closer to X.
Burying your head in the sand and just repeating Daily Mail mantras will just ensure that the situation continues to get worse and more and more people will find themselves locked out of homeownership as time goes on. |
I don’t live in the U.K. no idea what Daily Mail mantras are, let alone repeating them.
As I said above, throw any legal salary at me and I will be able to show how you can save £50 a week. There may be a rare example of those that can’t, but in the main, any young person without credit/store card debt and/or children should be able to save enough to get on the property ladder.
Again, just wait until you and your partner are ready to buy together. Which is what most people did back in the day anyway.
It’s pointless complaining that things are a bit harder now than before, that’s life, get on with it. Such a blame culture these days.
£50 a week saved or £25 a week each as a couple. Get that piggy bank stuffed and stop moaning about Governments. | |
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| £32,000 per year on 11:59 - Jan 27 with 1097 views | ThurrockJack92 |
| £32,000 per year on 11:48 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
I don’t live in the U.K. no idea what Daily Mail mantras are, let alone repeating them.
As I said above, throw any legal salary at me and I will be able to show how you can save £50 a week. There may be a rare example of those that can’t, but in the main, any young person without credit/store card debt and/or children should be able to save enough to get on the property ladder.
Again, just wait until you and your partner are ready to buy together. Which is what most people did back in the day anyway.
It’s pointless complaining that things are a bit harder now than before, that’s life, get on with it. Such a blame culture these days.
£50 a week saved or £25 a week each as a couple. Get that piggy bank stuffed and stop moaning about Governments. |
Really? Because you sure do repeat a lot of them. I have a sizeable deposit, I do not need advice on how to save. It doesn't negate that the cheapest crappy 1 bed flat in my area is 6 times my salary when the bank will only lend 4. You may advise me to look elsewhere, but it just so happens that areas with the cheaper houses do not have a lot of jobs, so I have to stay put.
Why shouldn't we speak up when we see things have regressed and will continue to do so? Surely as a society we should be aiming for things to improve? | | | |
| £32,000 per year on 12:06 - Jan 27 with 1090 views | Boundy |
| £32,000 per year on 11:26 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
If you don’t have a student loan then excellent. But I am addressing the examples that John raised that do, and used that as the reason they couldn’t save.
If you don’t have a student loan and are on a lesser wage, there is an example of £25,000 salary above.
If you are on £18,000 or £20,000 I’ll be able to adapt that for you too.
Whichever salary you throw at me, I will show you how you can save £50 a week as a young person with no children or no large credit card debt. |
You're Martin Lewis and I claim my £5 | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| £32,000 per year on 12:08 - Jan 27 with 1085 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| £32,000 per year on 11:59 - Jan 27 by ThurrockJack92 |
Really? Because you sure do repeat a lot of them. I have a sizeable deposit, I do not need advice on how to save. It doesn't negate that the cheapest crappy 1 bed flat in my area is 6 times my salary when the bank will only lend 4. You may advise me to look elsewhere, but it just so happens that areas with the cheaper houses do not have a lot of jobs, so I have to stay put.
Why shouldn't we speak up when we see things have regressed and will continue to do so? Surely as a society we should be aiming for things to improve? |
Absolutely really. Can’t be repeating them if I don’t read them, they don’t exist where I live.
But it’s safe to say we may well share the same outlook if you think they align. Not sure what that has to do with anything though?
Which part of what I have said do you have a particular issue with? Be specific.
What makes you think it’s regression? Things being slightly harder doesn’t mean it’s regressed, as a home owner things have excelled. Not long ago it was the potential buyers that were in a great position and the selling party in the poor position, that’s life.
Everybody's lives have vastly improved today compared to 50 years ago, everyones. So to single out one area that is more difficult (but not really that difficult) is tiresome. | |
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| £32,000 per year on 12:12 - Jan 27 with 1080 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| £32,000 per year on 12:06 - Jan 27 by Boundy |
You're Martin Lewis and I claim my £5 |
Yep, another sensible chap that looks at things as they are and doesn’t put invisible barriers in the way just to moan at the Government.
It’s funny isn’t it, people complain about not being able to afford a house deposit.
The second you put it down on paper and they realise that it’s possible if they make certain life style cutbacks - they get all offended and defensive.
Exploring this simply removes people’s safety blanket and excuses they have relied on for so long as excuses as to not go out of their own way to strive for something.
It’s very easy to carry on as you are and blame others. | |
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| £32,000 per year on 12:32 - Jan 27 with 1048 views | ThurrockJack92 |
| £32,000 per year on 12:08 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
Absolutely really. Can’t be repeating them if I don’t read them, they don’t exist where I live.
But it’s safe to say we may well share the same outlook if you think they align. Not sure what that has to do with anything though?
Which part of what I have said do you have a particular issue with? Be specific.
What makes you think it’s regression? Things being slightly harder doesn’t mean it’s regressed, as a home owner things have excelled. Not long ago it was the potential buyers that were in a great position and the selling party in the poor position, that’s life.
Everybody's lives have vastly improved today compared to 50 years ago, everyones. So to single out one area that is more difficult (but not really that difficult) is tiresome. |
My specific issue is you seem to think this can all be resolved simply by saving, the Daily Mail mantras are that the only thing stopping people from saving is spending on coffees, avocado toast, netflix or whatever caricature of a millennial they want to paint that week.
https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/blog/buy-or-rent-a-home/can-your-deposit-savin
Just take the example here, average prices and effectively deposit rose 13.2% on the year before, meaning the deposit required compared to the previous year is at least £1,700 on top of what you already trying to save for. How much Avocado toast do you think people are eating?
I do not THINK it's a regression it IS a regression. The proportion of people owning their own homes at 30 has been lowering in every generation since the baby boomers.
https://abcfinance.co.uk/blog/generation-rent-study/ | | | |
| £32,000 per year on 12:40 - Jan 27 with 1024 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| £32,000 per year on 12:32 - Jan 27 by ThurrockJack92 |
My specific issue is you seem to think this can all be resolved simply by saving, the Daily Mail mantras are that the only thing stopping people from saving is spending on coffees, avocado toast, netflix or whatever caricature of a millennial they want to paint that week.
https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/blog/buy-or-rent-a-home/can-your-deposit-savin
Just take the example here, average prices and effectively deposit rose 13.2% on the year before, meaning the deposit required compared to the previous year is at least £1,700 on top of what you already trying to save for. How much Avocado toast do you think people are eating?
I do not THINK it's a regression it IS a regression. The proportion of people owning their own homes at 30 has been lowering in every generation since the baby boomers.
https://abcfinance.co.uk/blog/generation-rent-study/ |
Right, well I agree with the Daily Mail then. Not sure how you don’t if they are simply saying that consumerism is too high in the youth to be complaining about property ladder.
I have shown how someone on £20k a year can save for a house. If the banking is in a situation where they need a higher salary to hit certain lending criteria, then simply wait until you can combine one with your partner.
That lowering of people under 30 being on the property ladder isn’t solely down to them not being able to afford it though. You do realise that?
Marriage rates are down, investment in other areas are seen as more rewarding, material goods purchases has gone through the roof and consumerism is at an all time high (this era that is). So that doesn’t signal regression to me, it signals a shifting of priorities. | |
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| £32,000 per year on 12:52 - Jan 27 with 1002 views | ThurrockJack92 |
| £32,000 per year on 12:40 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
Right, well I agree with the Daily Mail then. Not sure how you don’t if they are simply saying that consumerism is too high in the youth to be complaining about property ladder.
I have shown how someone on £20k a year can save for a house. If the banking is in a situation where they need a higher salary to hit certain lending criteria, then simply wait until you can combine one with your partner.
That lowering of people under 30 being on the property ladder isn’t solely down to them not being able to afford it though. You do realise that?
Marriage rates are down, investment in other areas are seen as more rewarding, material goods purchases has gone through the roof and consumerism is at an all time high (this era that is). So that doesn’t signal regression to me, it signals a shifting of priorities. |
Yes I do realise there are multiple reasons for homeownership decreasing. I believe most of it is ultimately due to decreasing affordability, as demonstrated by the ever widening gap between salary and cost, but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Regardless of the drivers, shouldn't this be a trend we should want to stop? You are clearly intelligent, so you can probably see the consequences of this trend, such as a suppression to birth rate or masses of pensioners having to rent on a reduced income.
I just don't understand how anyone can look at the situation and effectively say "oh well". [Post edited 27 Jan 2023 12:53]
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| £32,000 per year on 13:00 - Jan 27 with 988 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| £32,000 per year on 12:52 - Jan 27 by ThurrockJack92 |
Yes I do realise there are multiple reasons for homeownership decreasing. I believe most of it is ultimately due to decreasing affordability, as demonstrated by the ever widening gap between salary and cost, but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Regardless of the drivers, shouldn't this be a trend we should want to stop? You are clearly intelligent, so you can probably see the consequences of this trend, such as a suppression to birth rate or masses of pensioners having to rent on a reduced income.
I just don't understand how anyone can look at the situation and effectively say "oh well". [Post edited 27 Jan 2023 12:53]
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Not really, I don’t see it as a particular problem. Anyone (in the main) who wants to get on the property ladder can do so with subtle tweaks to lifestyle.
I’m not one of those who sees particular benefit in home ownership, especially not the way it is pushed on people (deposit and bank loan). I would recommend everyone rent until it makes financial sense to put a sufficient amount down to cut down interest.
Let’s say a home is purchased at £155,000. For ease of calculation, they put down £15,000 deposit.
£140,000 over 30 years (standard mortgage) at a rate of 4.8% means you are paying £133,973 just in interest, you are paying double for your house.
There are far greater things to do with your money than buy houses, which is why many people don’t. They are smart. | |
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| £32,000 per year on 13:30 - Jan 27 with 959 views | ThurrockJack92 |
| £32,000 per year on 13:00 - Jan 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
Not really, I don’t see it as a particular problem. Anyone (in the main) who wants to get on the property ladder can do so with subtle tweaks to lifestyle.
I’m not one of those who sees particular benefit in home ownership, especially not the way it is pushed on people (deposit and bank loan). I would recommend everyone rent until it makes financial sense to put a sufficient amount down to cut down interest.
Let’s say a home is purchased at £155,000. For ease of calculation, they put down £15,000 deposit.
£140,000 over 30 years (standard mortgage) at a rate of 4.8% means you are paying £133,973 just in interest, you are paying double for your house.
There are far greater things to do with your money than buy houses, which is why many people don’t. They are smart. |
Wouldn't be any different if you rented while saving to buy outright, at least with a mortgage you would have liberty of you own property for longer. | | | |
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