| Justice? 19:45 - Jan 28 with 3078 views | Johnw102 |
Baby dies with 60!! broken bones. The man and woman who did this received 8.5 and 7 years, respectively. Should have broken one of their bones, with a rope! |  |
| Never knew getting old would happen so quick! |
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| Justice? on 18:04 - Jan 29 with 807 views | onehunglow |
| Justice? on 16:54 - Jan 29 by Superjan |
I’m thirty years qualified as a Solicitor this year and I’ve been a HCA since 2012 . I completely agree about retaining credibility with your peers too . I’ve never prosecuted but I also agree that the CPS only instruct honest capable independent Counsel to represent the Crown . |
You have a kindred spirit .
You really do stick together |  |
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| Justice? on 18:30 - Jan 29 with 788 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Justice? on 18:04 - Jan 29 by onehunglow |
You have a kindred spirit .
You really do stick together |
That’s not fair, you don’t know either of us, yet you assume we’re just sticking together and not being truthful about how we operate. In fairness to you, you did say that there is nothing that can be said to change your mind.
Again I’ll ask what would you have replace defence counsel and why do you think prosecution and defence witnesses should be treated differently ? |  | | |
| Justice? on 18:38 - Jan 29 with 772 views | Superjan |
| Justice? on 18:04 - Jan 29 by onehunglow |
You have a kindred spirit .
You really do stick together |
You really are one for making sweeping generalisations. I’m speaking from my own personal experience and how I conduct myself. Can’t speak for and don’t speak for every Solicitor or Barrister who conducts Criminal defence work. I can’t account for who you have come into contact with in the past . Likewise I don’t make sweeping generalisations about the police. | | | |
| Justice? on 18:51 - Jan 29 with 760 views | Gwyn737 |
It all seems pretty simple to me.
If we want the right person convicted then we need to be as sure as we can that the case result is as watertight as can be.
For that to happen we need excellent barristers defending bad ‘uns.
Those who are for the death penalty yet against defence lawyers need to have a think about what that could mean. | | | |
| Justice? on 18:51 - Jan 29 with 759 views | onehunglow |
| Justice? on 18:38 - Jan 29 by Superjan |
You really are one for making sweeping generalisations. I’m speaking from my own personal experience and how I conduct myself. Can’t speak for and don’t speak for every Solicitor or Barrister who conducts Criminal defence work. I can’t account for who you have come into contact with in the past . Likewise I don’t make sweeping generalisations about the police. |
Who are you to preach to anyone .
You and Jon are in a profession that is mainly distrusted by the majority.
Fine esoteric drivel doesn’t intimidate all . Intimidate is what you do. You cannot be a successful lawyer if you lose cases . Next you will be telling us those found not guilty really are innocent and are good people misunderstood.
I ve too much experience to swallow this horse radish you are coming up with and you know full well the advocate system has little to do with the truth .
When you defend ,you are free of the stench of blood and guts and the pain of victims is there to be used in the most perverse way .
How does it feel to see someone you really ,at heart , think is guilty walk free | |
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| Justice? on 18:59 - Jan 29 with 753 views | Superjan |
| Justice? on 18:51 - Jan 29 by onehunglow |
Who are you to preach to anyone .
You and Jon are in a profession that is mainly distrusted by the majority.
Fine esoteric drivel doesn’t intimidate all . Intimidate is what you do. You cannot be a successful lawyer if you lose cases . Next you will be telling us those found not guilty really are innocent and are good people misunderstood.
I ve too much experience to swallow this horse radish you are coming up with and you know full well the advocate system has little to do with the truth .
When you defend ,you are free of the stench of blood and guts and the pain of victims is there to be used in the most perverse way .
How does it feel to see someone you really ,at heart , think is guilty walk free |
I apologise if you think I’m preaching or seeking to intimidate. You have given your opinion of my profession and that’s fine you’re entitled to it . I have my own view about how I conduct myself. I | | | |
| Justice? on 19:25 - Jan 29 with 742 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Justice? on 18:51 - Jan 29 by onehunglow |
Who are you to preach to anyone .
You and Jon are in a profession that is mainly distrusted by the majority.
Fine esoteric drivel doesn’t intimidate all . Intimidate is what you do. You cannot be a successful lawyer if you lose cases . Next you will be telling us those found not guilty really are innocent and are good people misunderstood.
I ve too much experience to swallow this horse radish you are coming up with and you know full well the advocate system has little to do with the truth .
When you defend ,you are free of the stench of blood and guts and the pain of victims is there to be used in the most perverse way .
How does it feel to see someone you really ,at heart , think is guilty walk free |
It feels terrible, but 12 people who listened to the evidence either unanimously or by 11-1 or 10-2 were not sure which has to be the way. I also prosecuted a chap for a rape in a case I thought was weak but he was found guilty. I felt equally bad. What should a prosecutor do there ? Refuse to do it ? Deliberately mess it up ?
You say we’re in a profession mainly distrusted by the majority. (Until they need us), I could (but would not) say the same about the police. How many lawyers have kidnapped, raped and murdered a woman walking home, or dragged peaceful women at her vigil away, or battered suspects whilst in handcuffs, or been involved in deaths in custody. It was lawyers that proved the corruption and violence by the police in the Birmingham 6 and the Guildford 4, where the police bartered confessions out of suspects. Those cases had the general public hammering on the police vans demanding the death penalty, hating people like me who defended them. ‘They should also be hanged’. People changed their mind when the truth came out. Is that different now as they were fitted up ? What about people with genuine mental health disabilities who need a hospital order but for people like me spouting ‘horse radish’ would spend a lifetime in prison ?
Being a successful lawyer is nothing to do with your success rate, a lawyer is only as good as his case. I’ve had runs of cases where I’ve won and likewise terrible cases where I’ve lost. I had one last month, where defendant insisted on running the case despite me and this solicitors telling him he had no chance. I’ve known these solicitors for years and prosecuted them many times, they’ll continue to instruct me win or lose as they’ve been in court during my trials and know I’ll do a good job. The skills of. A lawyer has little to do with guilty or not guilty.
You say that when we defend we are free of the guts of the victim. You presuppose that everyone that is charged is guilty, and everyone who makes a complaint is a victim. They are not.
I’ve also said that we are not free of anything, it is horrible cross examining someone you believe, but you must do it, otherwise the whole system will come crashing down.
Of course the system is to do with the truth. It is done in the best way possible . Both sides are represented, there is a judge to ensure it is fair and 12 people to decide if the case has been proven.
I would imagine you or your colleagues have never spoken to someone in the cells who have been on remand for getting on two years after being remanded for a rape in which time, his name has been dragged through the mud, he has lost his job, his house and his wife, the complainant (not the victim) was proven to be lying under cross examination and the Cps’s late disclosure of her phone, showed consent ?
What of that ? No compensation, nothing in the paper about the acquittal, life destroyed. He told me he had tried to commit suicide a few times and had he been convicted, he already had his blade attached to his toothbrush in his cell.
Free from the stench of blood and guts ? No. Not at all. That was about four years ago, I still remember it most days. | | | |
| Justice? on 21:53 - Jan 29 with 704 views | SgorioFruit |
two pages talking back and forth but yet these monsters receive next to nothing sentences. This is why the world is fecked.
should be utter outrage why they're not being strung up |  |
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| Justice? on 22:03 - Jan 29 with 693 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Justice? on 21:53 - Jan 29 by SgorioFruit |
two pages talking back and forth but yet these monsters receive next to nothing sentences. This is why the world is fecked.
should be utter outrage why they're not being strung up |
Unfortunately, there was no link with the injuries and the death, likewise it was impossible to prove which person caused the injuries.
That’s why they were charged with what they were charged with and why they got those sentences
Horrific case | | | |
| Justice? on 08:00 - Jan 30 with 661 views | Superjan |
| Justice? on 21:53 - Jan 29 by SgorioFruit |
two pages talking back and forth but yet these monsters receive next to nothing sentences. This is why the world is fecked.
should be utter outrage why they're not being strung up |
This thread developed in the way that it did because of a perception that justice wasn’t achieved because of the actions of those representing the defendants. Their involvement was at the end of the process, that involved the Police , the medical profession, the Crown Prosecution Service, independent Counsel advising the prosecution and ultimately the judiciary. As a father of two I have an opinion on what should happen to those two , it would probably surprise you . The real issue is that we now live in a society where children are deemed worthless by those who created them . We live in a society where people prioritise their own perceived needs over their child’s and worse . That’s the issue , how do we and can we even change this element of society? | | | |
| Justice? on 10:48 - Jan 30 with 649 views | onehunglow |
| Justice? on 21:53 - Jan 29 by SgorioFruit |
two pages talking back and forth but yet these monsters receive next to nothing sentences. This is why the world is fecked.
should be utter outrage why they're not being strung up |
Its what barristers do from an anodyne court well away from the smell of a Crime Scene.
Seeing a young girl with her intestines hanging it isnt good but when the Perp goes to court and his barrister adduces his "defence" it kinda stinks in the nostril .
It stays with you for life
I look at my daughter every day and thank God for not having to go through a Court process that sees witnesses terrified by boys from the Chambers who love to have a good raucous debate on behalf of their clients ,then go to the pub together. | |
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| Justice? on 16:33 - Jan 30 with 617 views | ARQS |
| Justice? on 10:48 - Jan 30 by onehunglow |
Its what barristers do from an anodyne court well away from the smell of a Crime Scene.
Seeing a young girl with her intestines hanging it isnt good but when the Perp goes to court and his barrister adduces his "defence" it kinda stinks in the nostril .
It stays with you for life
I look at my daughter every day and thank God for not having to go through a Court process that sees witnesses terrified by boys from the Chambers who love to have a good raucous debate on behalf of their clients ,then go to the pub together. |
What would your alternative be? | | | |
| Justice? on 17:48 - Jan 30 with 597 views | onehunglow |
| Justice? on 16:33 - Jan 30 by ARQS |
What would your alternative be? |
A fair question.
I d have to think hard but a less adversarial system for sure.
We could start at the top by truly hammering career criminals mercilessly and their briefs not making out they are in any way victims of a bad upbringing . | |
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| Justice? on 18:42 - Jan 30 with 576 views | ARQS |
| Justice? on 17:48 - Jan 30 by onehunglow |
A fair question.
I d have to think hard but a less adversarial system for sure.
We could start at the top by truly hammering career criminals mercilessly and their briefs not making out they are in any way victims of a bad upbringing . |
Interesting points mate. It's definitely a flawed system but is it the best system we can realistically have?
If I had been falsely accused of a crime, I would want a barrister who was using every trick in the book to prove my innocence or, if he wasn't able to do that, get me the shortest/easiest sentence. It isn't as easy as me getting off because I'm innocent. We've all seen enough miscarriages of justice to know that. I think nobody would deny me that representation.
If I had committed the crime, I'd either want to get away with it (not expecting any sympathy from anyone, depending on the details, of course) or at the very least I'd want to know how I could mitigate my sentence (which I think is fair enough, particularly if I was pleading guilty). I'd want to present myself as best I could, show remorse and get out as soon as I'd completed whatever sentence I was handed. I'd like to think most people wouldn't want to deny me someone to help me with that.
Equally though, I am completely with you in as much as if someone was on trial for committing a crime against one of my loved ones, I would probably totally resent them being represented and any mitigating arguments like the one you raised. I'd want them sent down, rotting in hell. Who cares about their backgrounds or childhoods? Some smart arse barrister trying to help his client trying to worm his way out of it would drive me mad. Forgiveness isn't for me, I'm afraid.
I don't disagree with the hammering of career criminals although you'll obviously find plenty who would find some degree of sympathy with their upbringing and backgrounds. I don't really consider myself in that camp but I can understand the arguments. Even if you had some sort of bar/restrictions to a defence for career criminals though (which I don't necessarily agree with as just because they've offended in the past doesn't mean they've done it this time and it'll make fit ups far more easy) what do you do when someone isn't a career criminal but committed an awful crime? Judge beforehand what sort of representation they're entitled to? Isn't that determining their guilt before the trial?
There is a school of thought that it is better that 9 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man goes down. Not sure what you think about this? I only ask because I am not sure myself.
Finally, I think that a defence barrister is just doing his job in the same way as the police are. Once it is in court, everyone is at the mercy of the jury and then the judge passing sentence. A defence barrister is no more responsible for a short sentence than the police/prosecution for not presenting a better case.
Ultimately, there are bad coppers and bad barristers. However, my view is that it is a good job there are good coppers and good barristers to make sure it's evened out. [Post edited 30 Jan 2022 18:57]
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| Justice? on 19:26 - Jan 30 with 556 views | onehunglow |
| Justice? on 18:42 - Jan 30 by ARQS |
Interesting points mate. It's definitely a flawed system but is it the best system we can realistically have?
If I had been falsely accused of a crime, I would want a barrister who was using every trick in the book to prove my innocence or, if he wasn't able to do that, get me the shortest/easiest sentence. It isn't as easy as me getting off because I'm innocent. We've all seen enough miscarriages of justice to know that. I think nobody would deny me that representation.
If I had committed the crime, I'd either want to get away with it (not expecting any sympathy from anyone, depending on the details, of course) or at the very least I'd want to know how I could mitigate my sentence (which I think is fair enough, particularly if I was pleading guilty). I'd want to present myself as best I could, show remorse and get out as soon as I'd completed whatever sentence I was handed. I'd like to think most people wouldn't want to deny me someone to help me with that.
Equally though, I am completely with you in as much as if someone was on trial for committing a crime against one of my loved ones, I would probably totally resent them being represented and any mitigating arguments like the one you raised. I'd want them sent down, rotting in hell. Who cares about their backgrounds or childhoods? Some smart arse barrister trying to help his client trying to worm his way out of it would drive me mad. Forgiveness isn't for me, I'm afraid.
I don't disagree with the hammering of career criminals although you'll obviously find plenty who would find some degree of sympathy with their upbringing and backgrounds. I don't really consider myself in that camp but I can understand the arguments. Even if you had some sort of bar/restrictions to a defence for career criminals though (which I don't necessarily agree with as just because they've offended in the past doesn't mean they've done it this time and it'll make fit ups far more easy) what do you do when someone isn't a career criminal but committed an awful crime? Judge beforehand what sort of representation they're entitled to? Isn't that determining their guilt before the trial?
There is a school of thought that it is better that 9 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man goes down. Not sure what you think about this? I only ask because I am not sure myself.
Finally, I think that a defence barrister is just doing his job in the same way as the police are. Once it is in court, everyone is at the mercy of the jury and then the judge passing sentence. A defence barrister is no more responsible for a short sentence than the police/prosecution for not presenting a better case.
Ultimately, there are bad coppers and bad barristers. However, my view is that it is a good job there are good coppers and good barristers to make sure it's evened out. [Post edited 30 Jan 2022 18:57]
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A very good riposte and respect to you.
I agree with most of that but not the penultimate when a Barrister with a guilty verdict i arguing for the most lenient sentence,no matter what the crime. It is that aspect I find dirty and something I couldnt do.
I have worked with police officers who were suspended,one for 2 years who are not solicitor and Barrister who defended the murderer of Rhys Jones. It is this I struggle with. | |
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