| Well Done Australia 21:47 - Jan 5 with 44422 views | DWQPR |
Cancelling the visa for the arrogant anti-Vaxer Djorkovic. Never liked the bloke. Let’s hope other countries follow suit. |  |
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| Well Done Australia on 15:38 - Jan 6 with 1905 views | Snipper |
When’s vaccines for covid were first mooted, I was sceptical about getting one as these vaccines take many many years to get right.
I did change my mind after a while though as I thought it was the responsible thing to do.
People are entitled to their opinion, but the anti vaxxers seem to be loudest with their opinions. I accept their reasons for not getting the vaccine, but I’m sick and tired of being preached to by them. It’s one of those subjects where both sides are entrenched in their views.
It reminds me of the never ending Brexit debate.
There is one thing that’s puzzled me from the start of all this though.
Why are our government, and governments from around the world up playing the number of deaths related to covid?
When something comes along out of the blue which causes loss of life, the government would normally allay fears and downplay numbers.
Now, if you got hit and killed by a bus up to 28 days after having covid, you’re classed as a covid death.
There’s definitely some sort of agenda out there. |  | | |
| Well Done Australia on 15:38 - Jan 6 with 1905 views | ericgen34 |
| Well Done Australia on 15:30 - Jan 6 by WatfordR |
I'm not actually disagreeing at all, and my apologies if my post was ambiguous. I'm Irish, my family is Irish, I know very well the connotations of what I posted.
What I'm saying is the minute you create a subset, a minority of people who have done nothing wrong other than be part of a minority, you're on a slippery slope. One that I'd hoped might have been left behind 50 years or more ago. |
Except that your example subsets are what some people are, not a choice.
Being anti vax is by choice, and when you make a choice, you need to accept its consequences. If someone choses to drink and drive because they're alcoholic, they cant be screaming for discrimination when they're locked up because they're a danger to others |  | | |
| Well Done Australia on 15:46 - Jan 6 with 1875 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| Well Done Australia on 14:20 - Jan 6 by WatfordR |
In that case, shouldn't we be saying the same to smokers with lung cancer, drinkers with liver failure and obese people with weight related health problems? |
A few years back I was visiting my mum in hospital and went for a walk, whereupon I see a patient outside wired up to a breathing apparatus smoking a ciggie!
Do I think a man hooked up to a ventilator receiving treatment for a respiratory condition should be denied treatment or required to pay for it? Well given that many health care systems around the world provide free advice and assistance to stop smoking and excessive drinking, then if someone flies in the face of this and continues with their errant ways, then yes, there is an arguable case for society to refuse to have to pay for it or, require that person to make adequate financial plans I.e. insurance.
Before you ask, do I think someone playing sport to keep active/healthy should receive free treatment for an injury? Yes they should. |  |
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| Well Done Australia on 15:49 - Jan 6 with 1864 views | denhamhoop2 |
I strongly suspect this will all be resolved and Djokovic will be at the Australian Open chasing his 10th Title as usually happens when politicians get involved lots of sabre rattling and hokum dished out but buckle when faced with it costing them financially.
As for the more general point of the right to choose what enters our bodies I hope he only drinks water he has personally sourced and food he has grown or killed himself. | | | |
| Well Done Australia on 15:51 - Jan 6 with 1860 views | Juzzie |
My partner has chosen not to be vaccinated until at least later in the year. She is not "anti-vax", she's just concerned about how quickly it was developed.
She has had the flu jab and our kids have had all their MMR, TB, flu etc jabs as she's fine with that as it from years of development.
She's aware of the consequences to herself and emergency services etc. She's not a selfish person but that's her choice for the reasons explained.
I have explained to her that I know people in the NHS who have told me it wasn't just "rushed through" which normally makes people think it by-passed checks etc.
We have to understand there's a difference between people like her and true anti-vaxxers and not lump them as the same.
In regards to Hunters comments about there needing to be a collective responsibility in society, it has felt to me that for quite a while now this has eroded over the last decade or so. People seem to be becoming more and more selfish... me, me, me. Social media brings in higher levels of narcissism and fuels that cycle of decline. |  | | |
| Well Done Australia on 16:02 - Jan 6 with 1818 views | kensalriser |
| Well Done Australia on 14:27 - Jan 6 by WatfordR |
No Blacks
No Dogs
No Irish
No Anti-Vaxxers |
One of those things is a choice. |  |
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| Well Done Australia on 16:05 - Jan 6 with 1808 views | Hunterhoop |
| Well Done Australia on 15:51 - Jan 6 by Juzzie |
My partner has chosen not to be vaccinated until at least later in the year. She is not "anti-vax", she's just concerned about how quickly it was developed.
She has had the flu jab and our kids have had all their MMR, TB, flu etc jabs as she's fine with that as it from years of development.
She's aware of the consequences to herself and emergency services etc. She's not a selfish person but that's her choice for the reasons explained.
I have explained to her that I know people in the NHS who have told me it wasn't just "rushed through" which normally makes people think it by-passed checks etc.
We have to understand there's a difference between people like her and true anti-vaxxers and not lump them as the same.
In regards to Hunters comments about there needing to be a collective responsibility in society, it has felt to me that for quite a while now this has eroded over the last decade or so. People seem to be becoming more and more selfish... me, me, me. Social media brings in higher levels of narcissism and fuels that cycle of decline. |
You’re right it has…until the pandemic when there’s been quite a high level of it. Majority double jabbed…
Anyway, your wife is entitled to that choice. I have no problem with that, but, for all the reasons stated about the potential impact on others of that choice, I think it is fair that she should have to accept the consequences of that decisions, which may involve restrictions on what she can do and where she can travel to.
I don’t think that summary position is particularly controversial (not am I saying you do either, Juzza), so I don’t understand the loud pushback from some, mainly those who refuse the vaccine. They still have a choice. |  | | |
| Well Done Australia on 16:06 - Jan 6 with 1804 views | BostonR |
| Well Done Australia on 10:33 - Jan 6 by Juzzie |
20 years ago I went to Thailand. I had to have a malaria jab otherwise I wasn't allowed to go. I'd imagine the same applied to everyone else who wanted to go there and needed one.
I don't recall there being national/global outcry about the rule. People just had the jab and got on with it. I get that the jab was more to protect me and everyone upon my return rather than protecting them from me taking anything in, but either way it's just about protecting people.
Australia say you need it (whether you agree with it or not) if you wish to visit. Their country, their rules. If you don't like it, tough. They have to do what they feel is in the best interest of their country & citizens.
Why are people so fking (mock?)outraged about abso-bloody-lutely every litte fking thing these days.
[Post edited 6 Jan 2022 10:53]
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Everyone is just so angry and turning on each other. We are a year in with vaccines which have been incredible in allowing some normality to return to life. Anti-vaxxers are a bit like idiots in the blitz who left their lights on, which resulted in them and the whole street getting annihilated. Fecking idiots who are stoking the hate and mis-information.
Enough is enough. ICU’s are full of idiots who chose not to get vaccinated and are now putting pressure on the NHS and depriving patients from getting important life-saving treatments. We allowed 52% of the country to take us over the Brexit cliff but we don’t listen to the 70% plus who are vaccinated in this country and want to return to some normality. Madness! |  | | |
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| Well Done Australia on 16:13 - Jan 6 with 1780 views | Juzzie |
| Well Done Australia on 16:05 - Jan 6 by Hunterhoop |
You’re right it has…until the pandemic when there’s been quite a high level of it. Majority double jabbed…
Anyway, your wife is entitled to that choice. I have no problem with that, but, for all the reasons stated about the potential impact on others of that choice, I think it is fair that she should have to accept the consequences of that decisions, which may involve restrictions on what she can do and where she can travel to.
I don’t think that summary position is particularly controversial (not am I saying you do either, Juzza), so I don’t understand the loud pushback from some, mainly those who refuse the vaccine. They still have a choice. |
She's totally fine about the fact it may hinder her from going to places or doing things. She's aware of the consequences of her decision and accepts that. | | | |
| Well Done Australia on 16:13 - Jan 6 with 1779 views | kensalriser |
| Well Done Australia on 15:38 - Jan 6 by Snipper |
When’s vaccines for covid were first mooted, I was sceptical about getting one as these vaccines take many many years to get right.
I did change my mind after a while though as I thought it was the responsible thing to do.
People are entitled to their opinion, but the anti vaxxers seem to be loudest with their opinions. I accept their reasons for not getting the vaccine, but I’m sick and tired of being preached to by them. It’s one of those subjects where both sides are entrenched in their views.
It reminds me of the never ending Brexit debate.
There is one thing that’s puzzled me from the start of all this though.
Why are our government, and governments from around the world up playing the number of deaths related to covid?
When something comes along out of the blue which causes loss of life, the government would normally allay fears and downplay numbers.
Now, if you got hit and killed by a bus up to 28 days after having covid, you’re classed as a covid death.
There’s definitely some sort of agenda out there. |
How many people do you think there are who've died after being hit by a bus within 28 days of testing positive? The answer will be statistically insignificant. Put against that, how many people do you think have died with or from covid more than 28 days after testing positive? In all of the above cases how can doctors be sure of the primary cause of death? Would someone with injuries from an accident or other health conditions have survived had covid not weakened their immune system?
There's no agenda, there's just not a perfect way of expressing the stats. | |
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| Well Done Australia on 16:18 - Jan 6 with 1764 views | Snipper |
| Well Done Australia on 16:13 - Jan 6 by kensalriser |
How many people do you think there are who've died after being hit by a bus within 28 days of testing positive? The answer will be statistically insignificant. Put against that, how many people do you think have died with or from covid more than 28 days after testing positive? In all of the above cases how can doctors be sure of the primary cause of death? Would someone with injuries from an accident or other health conditions have survived had covid not weakened their immune system?
There's no agenda, there's just not a perfect way of expressing the stats. |
I used being hit by a bus as an example. I had Covid before Christmas, but if I got hit by a bus and killed today, I’d be classed as a Covid death as it’s still within 28 days, even though Covid wouldn’t be responsible.
Strange times indeed. | | | |
| Well Done Australia on 16:23 - Jan 6 with 1747 views | kensalriser |
| Well Done Australia on 16:18 - Jan 6 by Snipper |
I used being hit by a bus as an example. I had Covid before Christmas, but if I got hit by a bus and killed today, I’d be classed as a Covid death as it’s still within 28 days, even though Covid wouldn’t be responsible.
Strange times indeed. |
You've completely ignored the points of statistical insignificance and compensating deaths, ie people killed by covid after 28 days. | |
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| Well Done Australia on 16:26 - Jan 6 with 1736 views | WatfordR |
| Well Done Australia on 15:37 - Jan 6 by Hunterhoop |
But they have done something wrong. That’s the point. All the science says it’s safe and it is proven to reduce serious illness. Not taking it is wrong for all the reasons stated before about the impact on others. This is not a freedom of choice thing like choosing the pint of beer you want.
And I should add that we’re agreed on Boris/The Tories politically driven decisions. I think there is a case to make vaccinations legal, but accept that they’ll never do it for fear of fallout in the party and with some of the 40% of the electorate that vote for them, risking their place in govt.
But in the meantime restrictions on those without the vaccines by private bodies and the govt, seem entirely fair. The choice still exists to live with them or have the vaccine.
The key here is you (anti-vaxxers) position the decision of whether to have a vaccine as purely a personal, individual one, which it is nobody else’s right to get involved in. Put simply, I do not, nor do he majority, I would estimate, precisely because of the potential impact of that decision on some many people other than themselves (the nhs, people who they pass it to, the highly vulnerable, those who lose their jobs/incomes because businesses can’t survive because the public health risk remains high, etc).
I do thing this public health crisis is different to the examples of collective responsibility you mention. I’m fully aware that Thatcher and Reagan tried to kill it and any sense of community and neoliberalism furthered this ideology. But the public response to the pandemic has shown a wide sense of collective responsibility. Even SteveC went to get the vaccine for this very reason, as he’s admitted, even though he has doubts. Loads of people didn’t want to be locked down, on furlough, having a vaccine, etc, but they did! Loads of people volunteered to help family, friends, strangers, etc, when self isolating. In general the UK population has stuck to the rules (far more than our govt!) and shown tremendous collective responsibility to get through this. Anti-vaxxers have not. It is not unreasonable to suggest they could have and should. [Post edited 6 Jan 2022 15:55]
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Ok a couple of points:
1. I'm not an anti vaxxer. I've had all three jabs. I also had my reservations, but on balance decided to do it. But I can see, and happily agree with, the principle whereby people can be different to me and have a different point of view..
2. I think we should establish that because anti vaxxers have a different view to the majority, unless that leads them to break the law, they are not "wrong". You might disagree with them, which you are perfectly entitled to do, but it doesn't make them wrong.
As the law stands, the decision as to whether to have a vaccine is entirely a personal and individual one. The decision each individual comes to is about the impact on them and the impact on those around them, and ultimately leads to a decision that they feel they can live with. As long as they're not breaking the law by taking the action they take. I'd defend any individual's right to their decision.
If everyone else feels that's not right, or dangerous to their safety or whatever, then they should get onto their MP about it. The minute Boris feels it's a vote winner, it'll be law.
By they way, collective responsibility is just that all the time. not just when it's easy. Standing by and watching someone being bullied or beaten doesn't mean they're less likely to suffer harm than they will from you passing on a virus to them.
If we're talking about moral "rights" and "wrongs", we certainly don't need that defined to us by Boris or his mates. |  | | |
| Well Done Australia on 16:30 - Jan 6 with 1724 views | WatfordR |
| Well Done Australia on 15:38 - Jan 6 by ericgen34 |
Except that your example subsets are what some people are, not a choice.
Being anti vax is by choice, and when you make a choice, you need to accept its consequences. If someone choses to drink and drive because they're alcoholic, they cant be screaming for discrimination when they're locked up because they're a danger to others |
I'd have to say that those examples are more about how the majority discriminate against them.
And again, drink drivers have broken the law, so discrimination is not an issue. | | | |
| Well Done Australia on 16:34 - Jan 6 with 1708 views | kensalriser |
| Well Done Australia on 16:26 - Jan 6 by WatfordR |
Ok a couple of points:
1. I'm not an anti vaxxer. I've had all three jabs. I also had my reservations, but on balance decided to do it. But I can see, and happily agree with, the principle whereby people can be different to me and have a different point of view..
2. I think we should establish that because anti vaxxers have a different view to the majority, unless that leads them to break the law, they are not "wrong". You might disagree with them, which you are perfectly entitled to do, but it doesn't make them wrong.
As the law stands, the decision as to whether to have a vaccine is entirely a personal and individual one. The decision each individual comes to is about the impact on them and the impact on those around them, and ultimately leads to a decision that they feel they can live with. As long as they're not breaking the law by taking the action they take. I'd defend any individual's right to their decision.
If everyone else feels that's not right, or dangerous to their safety or whatever, then they should get onto their MP about it. The minute Boris feels it's a vote winner, it'll be law.
By they way, collective responsibility is just that all the time. not just when it's easy. Standing by and watching someone being bullied or beaten doesn't mean they're less likely to suffer harm than they will from you passing on a virus to them.
If we're talking about moral "rights" and "wrongs", we certainly don't need that defined to us by Boris or his mates. |
Anti-vaxxers are very much wrong in that they are going against all the medical and scientific evidence, ie what the rest of us like to call facts. | |
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| Well Done Australia on 16:35 - Jan 6 with 1700 views | WatfordR |
| Well Done Australia on 16:02 - Jan 6 by kensalriser |
One of those things is a choice. |
You're missing the point.
All those statements are discriminatory, and therefore illegal, unlike the status of each group being discriminated against. | | | |
| Well Done Australia on 16:35 - Jan 6 with 1700 views | QPROslo |
| Well Done Australia on 13:19 - Jan 6 by ericgen34 |
I think there is a very good reason to compel people to get vaccinated. Here in France more than 80% in covid related intensive care are non vaccinated people, the rest are mostly people weakened with other conditions like transplanted, chemo etc... people
Our local hospital is cancelling operations because of lack of ICU space, on Monday a 7 year old waiting for an important kidney transplant had her operation cancelled because there is no room.
I can't understand at all why people would take the risk of ending up in intensive care when there is a safe, very efficient vaccine available, already taken by billions of people with no bad side effects |
Unfortunately some Covid vaccines do have extremely bad side effects. The mrna ones seem mainly ok. | | | |
| Well Done Australia on 16:39 - Jan 6 with 1684 views | WatfordR |
| Well Done Australia on 16:34 - Jan 6 by kensalriser |
Anti-vaxxers are very much wrong in that they are going against all the medical and scientific evidence, ie what the rest of us like to call facts. |
Well it may be that in 5-10 years time, there'll be enough medical and scientific evidence to come to an absolute conclusion on that. | | | |
| Well Done Australia on 16:41 - Jan 6 with 1677 views | Hunterhoop |
| Well Done Australia on 16:26 - Jan 6 by WatfordR |
Ok a couple of points:
1. I'm not an anti vaxxer. I've had all three jabs. I also had my reservations, but on balance decided to do it. But I can see, and happily agree with, the principle whereby people can be different to me and have a different point of view..
2. I think we should establish that because anti vaxxers have a different view to the majority, unless that leads them to break the law, they are not "wrong". You might disagree with them, which you are perfectly entitled to do, but it doesn't make them wrong.
As the law stands, the decision as to whether to have a vaccine is entirely a personal and individual one. The decision each individual comes to is about the impact on them and the impact on those around them, and ultimately leads to a decision that they feel they can live with. As long as they're not breaking the law by taking the action they take. I'd defend any individual's right to their decision.
If everyone else feels that's not right, or dangerous to their safety or whatever, then they should get onto their MP about it. The minute Boris feels it's a vote winner, it'll be law.
By they way, collective responsibility is just that all the time. not just when it's easy. Standing by and watching someone being bullied or beaten doesn't mean they're less likely to suffer harm than they will from you passing on a virus to them.
If we're talking about moral "rights" and "wrongs", we certainly don't need that defined to us by Boris or his mates. |
On that logic you are letting your principles be determined by laws decided by the govt (and this govt at that!). Do you agree with every law or lack of law in the country? Surely not. No one does. That’s why we have different political parties and them all receiving votes.
What is Law should not determine what someone considers right or wrong as a principle.
If someone lies to someone and causes them harm, is that “wrong”? Morally, I’d say “yes”.
If someone has an affair with his mate’s wife, is that “wrong”? Many, according to their own principles, would say “yes”.
If someone screws your over financially, without breaking the law, but by deception, is that wrong morally? I’m sure you’d say yes.
Was Keith Stroud wrong to award Sunderland’s goal? Yes,
None of those are illegal.
Having an opinion on what’s right and wrong that’s based purely on the statue book is ludicrous. You can have principles about what’s right and wrong that are different to what’s enshrined in law. I’d go as far as to say such principles/opinions define who you are, your character even.
You may disagree with my opinion, but you aren’t right in holding that opinion just because no law states the act we’re discussing is illegal. [Post edited 6 Jan 2022 16:43]
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| Well Done Australia on 16:57 - Jan 6 with 1627 views | ericgen34 |
| Well Done Australia on 16:39 - Jan 6 by WatfordR |
Well it may be that in 5-10 years time, there'll be enough medical and scientific evidence to come to an absolute conclusion on that. |
One of the anti vaxxers favourite agrument (and I'm not saying you are an anti vax), new tech, need more time to assess side effects etc...
An injection of a small quantity of mRNA with very short life span, which is used by our cells to produce a single protein. A technology that's been researched for quite a while, including with patient testing and in cancer treatments for example and quite successfully.
Now compare that with a new virus, with its very own RNA that infects millions and millions of your cells, for many days, and make you so ill, many die. Maybe in 5 to 10 years time we'll have a new epidemic of cancers produced by these for example - obviously hope not, but many viruses do. It's another thing to consider when taking the risk of getting ill versus vaccination | | | |
| Well Done Australia on 16:58 - Jan 6 with 1617 views | wood_hoop |
| Well Done Australia on 15:30 - Jan 6 by WatfordR |
I'm not actually disagreeing at all, and my apologies if my post was ambiguous. I'm Irish, my family is Irish, I know very well the connotations of what I posted.
What I'm saying is the minute you create a subset, a minority of people who have done nothing wrong other than be part of a minority, you're on a slippery slope. One that I'd hoped might have been left behind 50 years or more ago. |
Apologie gratefully accepted, not easy to always put in a coherent way ones views, and mine probably lead to conotations that were not meant.
We can't be that far apart we frequent this den of iniquity.
Anyway you missed off 'anyone wearing a 'Chels** shirt' |  | | |
| Well Done Australia on 17:08 - Jan 6 with 1594 views | Paddyhoops |
I don't have a problem with people who won't have a vaccination . I do have a problem with people who are on the extreme side of the argument.
Take my good friend from the Balkans who has lived here for the last 15 years.
He watched his elderly dad die on a covid ward in East London because a close relative filled his head with bullsh** about the "dangers" of the vaccine.
9 people in the ICU ward . 8 had no vaccine.
He said he will never recover from the trauma of what he witnessed.
As for Our Serbian friend, well there aren't too many of his fellow pros or lockdown Aussies giving him much support, which says it all.! | | | |
| Well Done Australia on 17:10 - Jan 6 with 1591 views | Northernr |
Usual pleas...
- Be civil. We're all QPR.
- Don't go round and round in circles. If they don't agree with you now, they won't agree with you in seven pages time.
- Anti-vax conspiracy theories, vaccine made my dog have a heart attack, my nurse friend says it contains arsenic, etc, is for making Mark Zuckerberg richer, it's not for here. |  | | |
| Well Done Australia on 17:48 - Jan 6 with 1499 views | Ranger_Things |
In Bristol there were 2 separate attacks on off duty nurses by groups of Anti-vaxers. Staff now told not to wear uniforms, lanyards or anything else that could identify them out of work.
This country is f ucked. [Post edited 6 Jan 2022 17:59]
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| Well Done Australia on 17:59 - Jan 6 with 1481 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| Well Done Australia on 17:48 - Jan 6 by Ranger_Things |
In Bristol there were 2 separate attacks on off duty nurses by groups of Anti-vaxers. Staff now told not to wear uniforms, lanyards or anything else that could identify them out of work.
This country is f ucked. [Post edited 6 Jan 2022 17:59]
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No my friend, it’s humanity that is fooked! | |
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