| Birch’s programme notes 12:09 - Dec 29 with 27815 views | marchamjack |
Can’t do the linky thing on my phone...thanks in advance to whoever puts them up...if anyone is still in any doubt about Trev being a puppet of the Yanks, have a read 😠|  |
| Oh,..Dave, what's occuring? |
| |  |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:01 - Dec 30 with 1902 views | BillyChong |
| Birch’s programme notes on 21:03 - Dec 30 by londonlisa2001 |
Interesting thread.
My main take on this :
We spent 7 years in the premier league. If we downgrade the academy (and it’s an if, but one that’s been raised by the programme notes so is undoubtedly possible), what exactly do we have to show for the income in excess of half a BILLION pounds we earned during that time.
The stadium isn’t any bigger.
The team will consist of, let’s be honest, mid ranking championship players playing bang average football.
We have an inexperienced manager.
We won’t have a high ranking academy.
We won’t have state of the art training facilities that we own.
We haven’t a new stadium sponsor.
We have a mid level kit supplier and mid level sponsors.
We have attendances that are no better than we had in 2010/2011.
We have owners that are disconnected from the fan base and a supporters’ trust that have been left outside in the cold.
It seems to me that all we have to show for the substantial amount of time in the top earning league in the world is a few individuals driving around West Wales in better cars, unable to show their faces in the stadium.
It’s not much of a legacy is it. |
And certain surnames that will forever be despised in Swansea |  | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:05 - Dec 30 with 1875 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Birch’s programme notes on 21:42 - Dec 30 by thornabyswan |
Just off topic slightly but do the Trust now receive detailed accounts.
Uxbridge contradicted what you said previously.
Just wanted some clarification please. [Post edited 30 Dec 2019 21:43]
|
He didn’t contradict it.
I’ve explained what I was talking about a while ago and what I believe the situation to be now already. | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:08 - Dec 30 with 1867 views | dobjack2 |
| Birch’s programme notes on 21:12 - Dec 30 by jasper_T |
I think there are players there that can be brought through. I wouldn't be confident that we will produce £5/10/15m players for sale on a regular basis, enough for the academy to "pay for itself" in that sense, but there's a decent number of players who might push on and contribute if given the opportunity. There's always talent to be found in South Wales, as Fergie said.
Hard when we've got new senior signings not even making matchday squads, of course. At some other Championship clubs the likes of Jack Evans and Brandon Cooper might have had decent minutes by now, as the injury-crisis has allowed Ben Cabango to have.
Category 1 is a set of minimum standards which we are - as far as I'm aware - still meeting. But compared to many Cat 1 outfits we don't have the same volume of recruitment, recruitment spend, wage spend or size of squad any more. We don't take advantage of poaching rights and I'm not sure there's many here that would have been chased by bigger clubs ahead of their scholarship phase. It's become a difficult environment for our development sides to compete within. The u18s always had it tough but our u23s were very good for a few years, winning a league and cup double and consistently doing well in the Checkatrade against senior sides (or at least their b teams). The trend is definitely downwards, but these things do ebb and flow, no academy remains consistently good year on year. |
Cheers, appreciate your considered thoughts on the subject | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:19 - Dec 30 with 1825 views | SwanDownUnder |
ok so now tell us the solution as a you are affiliated withe trust | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:27 - Dec 30 with 1785 views | monmouth |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:19 - Dec 30 by SwanDownUnder |
ok so now tell us the solution as a you are affiliated withe trust |
You do know they are taking them to court? Until then it is what it is. |  |
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| Birch’s programme notes on 22:28 - Dec 30 with 1780 views | thornabyswan |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:05 - Dec 30 by londonlisa2001 |
He didn’t contradict it.
I’ve explained what I was talking about a while ago and what I believe the situation to be now already. |
Yes saw that on the other thread.
Uxbridge did not expain earlier so there was a contradiction at the time.
He just said the trust receive detailed accounts.
But thanks for the explanation. | |
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| Birch’s programme notes on 22:31 - Dec 30 with 1761 views | SwanDownUnder |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:05 - Dec 30 by londonlisa2001 |
He didn’t contradict it.
I’ve explained what I was talking about a while ago and what I believe the situation to be now already. |
but he did tell us not to vote for legal action? | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:49 - Dec 30 with 1719 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Birch’s programme notes on 21:03 - Dec 30 by londonlisa2001 |
Interesting thread.
My main take on this :
We spent 7 years in the premier league. If we downgrade the academy (and it’s an if, but one that’s been raised by the programme notes so is undoubtedly possible), what exactly do we have to show for the income in excess of half a BILLION pounds we earned during that time.
The stadium isn’t any bigger.
The team will consist of, let’s be honest, mid ranking championship players playing bang average football.
We have an inexperienced manager.
We won’t have a high ranking academy.
We won’t have state of the art training facilities that we own.
We haven’t a new stadium sponsor.
We have a mid level kit supplier and mid level sponsors.
We have attendances that are no better than we had in 2010/2011.
We have owners that are disconnected from the fan base and a supporters’ trust that have been left outside in the cold.
It seems to me that all we have to show for the substantial amount of time in the top earning league in the world is a few individuals driving around West Wales in better cars, unable to show their faces in the stadium.
It’s not much of a legacy is it. |
Yeah that pretty much sums it up.
Devastating. |  | | |
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| Birch’s programme notes on 23:34 - Dec 30 with 1663 views | Cooperman |
| Birch’s programme notes on 21:03 - Dec 30 by londonlisa2001 |
Interesting thread.
My main take on this :
We spent 7 years in the premier league. If we downgrade the academy (and it’s an if, but one that’s been raised by the programme notes so is undoubtedly possible), what exactly do we have to show for the income in excess of half a BILLION pounds we earned during that time.
The stadium isn’t any bigger.
The team will consist of, let’s be honest, mid ranking championship players playing bang average football.
We have an inexperienced manager.
We won’t have a high ranking academy.
We won’t have state of the art training facilities that we own.
We haven’t a new stadium sponsor.
We have a mid level kit supplier and mid level sponsors.
We have attendances that are no better than we had in 2010/2011.
We have owners that are disconnected from the fan base and a supporters’ trust that have been left outside in the cold.
It seems to me that all we have to show for the substantial amount of time in the top earning league in the world is a few individuals driving around West Wales in better cars, unable to show their faces in the stadium.
It’s not much of a legacy is it. |
Oof, that’s a sobering read. |  |
| |
| Birch’s programme notes on 23:51 - Dec 30 with 1651 views | marchamjack |
| Birch’s programme notes on 21:03 - Dec 30 by londonlisa2001 |
Interesting thread.
My main take on this :
We spent 7 years in the premier league. If we downgrade the academy (and it’s an if, but one that’s been raised by the programme notes so is undoubtedly possible), what exactly do we have to show for the income in excess of half a BILLION pounds we earned during that time.
The stadium isn’t any bigger.
The team will consist of, let’s be honest, mid ranking championship players playing bang average football.
We have an inexperienced manager.
We won’t have a high ranking academy.
We won’t have state of the art training facilities that we own.
We haven’t a new stadium sponsor.
We have a mid level kit supplier and mid level sponsors.
We have attendances that are no better than we had in 2010/2011.
We have owners that are disconnected from the fan base and a supporters’ trust that have been left outside in the cold.
It seems to me that all we have to show for the substantial amount of time in the top earning league in the world is a few individuals driving around West Wales in better cars, unable to show their faces in the stadium.
It’s not much of a legacy is it. |
What we have are memories, mostly great memories too, loved our time in PL and in Europe. Brilliant time to have been a fan.
Things which are now tangible...no, nothing. Nothing really. That really is sobering.
Great post 👠| |
| Oh,..Dave, what's occuring? |
| |
| Birch’s programme notes on 00:56 - Dec 31 with 1603 views | majorraglan |
| Birch’s programme notes on 15:08 - Dec 30 by whiterock |
I don't think the land is worth anything, the council signed a 100 year lease over to the Swans on the proviso that it is only used for sport so the land is not for sale.
What could happen is that its mothballed so there are no running costs or more than possible is that the University could take control of Landore for X number of years where they pay the running costs, the Academy could then up sticks and go to Fairwood where there is ample room, down grading to Cat 2 wouldn't be the end of the world and we could still produce players.These measures could potentially save the club £2-£3m a season. Category One with all the facilities costs the club near £5m, probably a little rich if we don't get back up to the Premier League. |
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the land at Landore was subject to some restrictions, but I may be wrong. If there are covenants then whoever imposed them could prevent the land from being developed in any manner which when against the agreement, that could severely limit its value.
I don’t agree with a previous poster about relocating the academy further East, but I think moving it to Fairwood I’ll make it a lot more difficult for most people to each, crossing Swansea is a mare at the best of times, Landore is much more convenient.
During the 80s when we went in to a deep recession, investment in training was one of the things that most companies cut and 30 years on we are still suffering the effects. There are some talented youngsters at the club who have come through the Academy, if I were Birch I would be doing my best to retain its status and get the best coaches I could afford to develop the youngsters. | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 06:36 - Dec 31 with 1544 views | TimTtam |
| Birch’s programme notes on 21:03 - Dec 30 by londonlisa2001 |
Interesting thread.
My main take on this :
We spent 7 years in the premier league. If we downgrade the academy (and it’s an if, but one that’s been raised by the programme notes so is undoubtedly possible), what exactly do we have to show for the income in excess of half a BILLION pounds we earned during that time.
The stadium isn’t any bigger.
The team will consist of, let’s be honest, mid ranking championship players playing bang average football.
We have an inexperienced manager.
We won’t have a high ranking academy.
We won’t have state of the art training facilities that we own.
We haven’t a new stadium sponsor.
We have a mid level kit supplier and mid level sponsors.
We have attendances that are no better than we had in 2010/2011.
We have owners that are disconnected from the fan base and a supporters’ trust that have been left outside in the cold.
It seems to me that all we have to show for the substantial amount of time in the top earning league in the world is a few individuals driving around West Wales in better cars, unable to show their faces in the stadium.
It’s not much of a legacy is it. |
The one thing I hoped after relegation, was that we'd be an established PL club who could get promoted again within a few years. That could still be the case, but it depends on what happens next.
This is a crucial next 8 months. I strongly believe we can be a stable club financially, without having to downgrade the academy and/or sell the academy training grounds. But if the yanks believe selling will make the club a more attractive prospect (it will not btw), then they will tell Birch to begin the process. |  |
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| Birch’s programme notes on 08:44 - Dec 31 with 1482 views | waynekerr55 |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:31 - Dec 30 by SwanDownUnder |
but he did tell us not to vote for legal action? |
Yes back in the first tranche where the Trust entered into negotiations in good faith.
What's your point? |  |
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| Birch’s programme notes on 08:49 - Dec 31 with 1472 views | monmouth |
| Birch’s programme notes on 23:34 - Dec 30 by Cooperman |
Oof, that’s a sobering read. |
Reading it first time sober, it was a take my shoe laces off me read. | |
| |
| Birch’s programme notes on 11:46 - Dec 31 with 1377 views | Blue_Blood |
| Birch’s programme notes on 19:28 - Dec 30 by jasper_T |
Is this the point in the conversation when people start using "academy" and "category 1 academy" interchangeably? I see it is.
The EPPP has had positive effects in improving academy standards and domestic player development, but the top level of those standards are not within reach of every football club. The tiered system exists to provide the most benefit to the richest clubs, and neither we nor Cardiff are that at the moment.
"It's currently funding itself" is a deceptive argument when the football club as a whole is not funding itself, and we would still be producing players with Cat 2/3, with far less risk and need to sell to continually balance the books. Major cutbacks have already taken place - many staff have gone, and there are fewer players on the books. Our u23s starting 11s are 80% local now, when they were ~30% local during our successful period from which the recent graduates emerged. "It's currently" not done anything, this is not the academy structure that bought and sold Oli and Dan James, even if the Cat 1 label is for now the same. |
Some fair points but as you say the system is designed to benefit those at the top.
Clubs like Cardiff and Swansea could take advantage of that and I believe the one area where your club has lacked is in recruitment of players who have been released by other clubs.
If you're savvy enough you won't have to pay the fees you have been paying to supplement your local players. There will be players not given scholarships like David Brooks who are good enough to play for Swansea released every season. As the standard of player is going up at these top club then the standard of player being released should also go up.
The standard of Cat 2 is a massive drop from Cat 1 and as I've said on countless occasions on here, you'll find yourself playing Colchester instead of Chelsea!
The standard of Cat 3 teams are quite low from the young ages up and teams like Cambrian end up playing a lot of CST 3 teams.
I don't think it is deceptive argument regarding the academy paying for itself. The reason I say this is that is cos it's not only paying for itself but the 35 million from the sales of Mcburnie and James probably saved you from impending disaster. | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 11:51 - Dec 31 with 1371 views | SwanDownUnder |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:27 - Dec 30 by monmouth |
You do know they are taking them to court? Until then it is what it is. |
the lawyer is ill | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 12:06 - Dec 31 with 1340 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Birch’s programme notes on 11:51 - Dec 31 by SwanDownUnder |
the lawyer is ill |
As has been stated a number of times now, that has not impacted the situation other than for a short time - less than a couple of weeks.
I realise your obvious and sad motivation is seemingly to spend a few days stirring up crap on here, but repeating lies over and over seems a strange way to spend a holiday.
What’s also sad is that so many are willing to jump on the bandwagon.
Several threads criticising the Trust and yet none criticising the actions of those that have caused this. What a time to be a supporter.
Morons. | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 12:07 - Dec 31 with 1342 views | Uxbridge |
| Birch’s programme notes on 22:28 - Dec 30 by thornabyswan |
Yes saw that on the other thread.
Uxbridge did not expain earlier so there was a contradiction at the time.
He just said the trust receive detailed accounts.
But thanks for the explanation. |
I did in the other thread but probably missed. Never mind  |  |
| |
| Birch’s programme notes on 12:11 - Dec 31 with 1325 views | Uxbridge |
| Birch’s programme notes on 19:28 - Dec 30 by jasper_T |
Is this the point in the conversation when people start using "academy" and "category 1 academy" interchangeably? I see it is.
The EPPP has had positive effects in improving academy standards and domestic player development, but the top level of those standards are not within reach of every football club. The tiered system exists to provide the most benefit to the richest clubs, and neither we nor Cardiff are that at the moment.
"It's currently funding itself" is a deceptive argument when the football club as a whole is not funding itself, and we would still be producing players with Cat 2/3, with far less risk and need to sell to continually balance the books. Major cutbacks have already taken place - many staff have gone, and there are fewer players on the books. Our u23s starting 11s are 80% local now, when they were ~30% local during our successful period from which the recent graduates emerged. "It's currently" not done anything, this is not the academy structure that bought and sold Oli and Dan James, even if the Cat 1 label is for now the same. |
There's some good points here I think, and that first sentence is absolutely spot on.
Given the circumstances and constraints, it'll be about finding that equilibrium. As ever, it'll come down to money. | |
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| Birch’s programme notes on 12:20 - Dec 31 with 1300 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Birch’s programme notes on 12:11 - Dec 31 by Uxbridge |
There's some good points here I think, and that first sentence is absolutely spot on.
Given the circumstances and constraints, it'll be about finding that equilibrium. As ever, it'll come down to money. |
It will come down to money.
But any change in the status of the academy and /or training facilities will be the most damning indictment of unforgivable mismanagement there could be. | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 12:34 - Dec 31 with 1274 views | jasper_T |
| Birch’s programme notes on 11:46 - Dec 31 by Blue_Blood |
Some fair points but as you say the system is designed to benefit those at the top.
Clubs like Cardiff and Swansea could take advantage of that and I believe the one area where your club has lacked is in recruitment of players who have been released by other clubs.
If you're savvy enough you won't have to pay the fees you have been paying to supplement your local players. There will be players not given scholarships like David Brooks who are good enough to play for Swansea released every season. As the standard of player is going up at these top club then the standard of player being released should also go up.
The standard of Cat 2 is a massive drop from Cat 1 and as I've said on countless occasions on here, you'll find yourself playing Colchester instead of Chelsea!
The standard of Cat 3 teams are quite low from the young ages up and teams like Cambrian end up playing a lot of CST 3 teams.
I don't think it is deceptive argument regarding the academy paying for itself. The reason I say this is that is cos it's not only paying for itself but the 35 million from the sales of Mcburnie and James probably saved you from impending disaster. |
You don't need to be in the highest category to pick up players released by their clubs pre-scholarship. David Brooks went to Cat 2 Sheff Utd and flourished (Aaron Ramsdale also at Bournemouth did the same. Good, productive academy there). We pick up a handful every year and the vast majority don't prove their former clubs wrong.
The system isn't designed to benefit those at the top. It's designed to benefit the richest, who can afford to be at the top and utilise all the advantages that brings. Achieving Cat 1 standards is only part of the equation, if you're not spending millions a year on players for the academy age groups (as we used to do) you're not keeping up with the competition.
4 and a half years at around £5m a year (according to Chris Wathan), plus all the transfer fees. £30m for Oli and DJ doesn't put us far ahead on the balance sheet. Would need to hope the likes of Cabango, Garrick and co. get themselves in the ship window. | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 12:37 - Dec 31 with 1265 views | hammy |
| Birch’s programme notes on 21:03 - Dec 30 by londonlisa2001 |
Interesting thread.
My main take on this :
We spent 7 years in the premier league. If we downgrade the academy (and it’s an if, but one that’s been raised by the programme notes so is undoubtedly possible), what exactly do we have to show for the income in excess of half a BILLION pounds we earned during that time.
The stadium isn’t any bigger.
The team will consist of, let’s be honest, mid ranking championship players playing bang average football.
We have an inexperienced manager.
We won’t have a high ranking academy.
We won’t have state of the art training facilities that we own.
We haven’t a new stadium sponsor.
We have a mid level kit supplier and mid level sponsors.
We have attendances that are no better than we had in 2010/2011.
We have owners that are disconnected from the fan base and a supporters’ trust that have been left outside in the cold.
It seems to me that all we have to show for the substantial amount of time in the top earning league in the world is a few individuals driving around West Wales in better cars, unable to show their faces in the stadium.
It’s not much of a legacy is it. |
This is football so not sure what everyone is really expecting. Like the vast majority of football clubs, and especially those that have "achieved" promotion to the PL, outside of the billionaire funded top 6, they are all pretty much in the same situation. Some have millionaire backers that are prepared to "invest / loan" funds, but that rarely turns out well either.
So where has the money gone ? Primarily to greedy players and their agents; they are basically squeezing the life out of the game and it doesn't look like ending any time soon, with the likes of Amazon looking to get involved. Until control is taken away from the players / agents then this situation is just going to continue.
As for Swansea, it gave me great pleasure to see us be mostly competitive in the PL for 7 years and to actually win a competitive competition (which club outside of the top 6 has won anything since then). Going forward we need to get back to being a competitive second tier club as soon as possible.
The sell-outs and the Yanks have certainly not helped, but if you want to make any money in business then stay away from owning a football club ! |  |
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| Birch’s programme notes on 12:42 - Dec 31 with 1254 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Birch’s programme notes on 12:37 - Dec 31 by hammy |
This is football so not sure what everyone is really expecting. Like the vast majority of football clubs, and especially those that have "achieved" promotion to the PL, outside of the billionaire funded top 6, they are all pretty much in the same situation. Some have millionaire backers that are prepared to "invest / loan" funds, but that rarely turns out well either.
So where has the money gone ? Primarily to greedy players and their agents; they are basically squeezing the life out of the game and it doesn't look like ending any time soon, with the likes of Amazon looking to get involved. Until control is taken away from the players / agents then this situation is just going to continue.
As for Swansea, it gave me great pleasure to see us be mostly competitive in the PL for 7 years and to actually win a competitive competition (which club outside of the top 6 has won anything since then). Going forward we need to get back to being a competitive second tier club as soon as possible.
The sell-outs and the Yanks have certainly not helped, but if you want to make any money in business then stay away from owning a football club ! |
Oh I don’t know - a few that have owned this football club have made quite a bit of money...
Any club going up to the premier league with no debt, no high salaries, no huge repayments due on a stadium, and staying there for 7 seasons should, with a bit of good management, have a legacy from that time. | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 12:44 - Dec 31 with 1248 views | Blue_Blood |
| Birch’s programme notes on 12:34 - Dec 31 by jasper_T |
You don't need to be in the highest category to pick up players released by their clubs pre-scholarship. David Brooks went to Cat 2 Sheff Utd and flourished (Aaron Ramsdale also at Bournemouth did the same. Good, productive academy there). We pick up a handful every year and the vast majority don't prove their former clubs wrong.
The system isn't designed to benefit those at the top. It's designed to benefit the richest, who can afford to be at the top and utilise all the advantages that brings. Achieving Cat 1 standards is only part of the equation, if you're not spending millions a year on players for the academy age groups (as we used to do) you're not keeping up with the competition.
4 and a half years at around £5m a year (according to Chris Wathan), plus all the transfer fees. £30m for Oli and DJ doesn't put us far ahead on the balance sheet. Would need to hope the likes of Cabango, Garrick and co. get themselves in the ship window. |
It's surely obvious though that a released player is gonna prefer to play Category 1 given the opportunity.
I'm not saying that you can't run a good category 2 academy but the weekly fixture list versus Arsenal, Spurs etc is bound to be more attractive for a players development.
I maintain that you could have your finger on the pulse better when it comes to released players. I've seen some of your recruits this season and haven't been very impressed.
The other option you have as a club (and one I'm sure your club is aware of down to Andy Scott) is to follow the Watford model in keeping Category 2 up to u16 (I think it is) then picking off friendly games against the the top British and European opposition. | | | |
| Birch’s programme notes on 12:46 - Dec 31 with 1246 views | Dr_Winston |
| Birch’s programme notes on 12:42 - Dec 31 by londonlisa2001 |
Oh I don’t know - a few that have owned this football club have made quite a bit of money...
Any club going up to the premier league with no debt, no high salaries, no huge repayments due on a stadium, and staying there for 7 seasons should, with a bit of good management, have a legacy from that time. |
Can't argue with that.
For me the biggest mistakes have been the failure to properly expand the stadium in 2012-13 when we were flying, and the idiocy in appointing Monk alongside completely changing the way we did business as a club.
As always, the most frustrating thing isn't that we had a good spell in the Prem but ultimately struggled to compete, it's that most of our woes have been largely self-inflicted and had our owners been smarter and less greedy we could still have been a Premier League club now. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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