| Josh Scowen 17:58 - Jun 22 with 23759 views | WadR |
Strong rumours from, relatively, reliable sources saying we've signed Josh Scowen the Barnsley midfielder on a free.
Would be very pleased with that. Had a great season last year, seems very popular with Barnsley fans and although we're well stocked for midfielders, I thought we were lacking a more defensive option to play alongside a box-to-box type in Luongo/Manning/Cousins. |  | | |  |
| Josh Scowen on 10:31 - Jun 27 with 4701 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Josh Scowen on 10:27 - Jun 27 by daveB |
I'd agree but I think the worry Holloway will have is that without the extra man in midfield we are too easy to score against so he will either have to sacrifice a forward or a wide player to protect the back four. We looked very good going forward playing 4-4-2 against WIgan and Barnsley at home but could have conceded 5 or 6 those nights and he seemed to shy away from playing that open again.
I do think we'll have a better idea once the transfer business has been done |
I agree. It's been a long time since we've had two midfielders who could control a midfield. |  |
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| Josh Scowen on 10:47 - Jun 27 with 4639 views | WadR |
| Josh Scowen on 09:31 - Jun 27 by simmo |
Agree that it's good to have so many options but I still think we're lacking someone to play the holding role in a midfield 2 or 3, we looked so much better with 1 person (usually Hall) sitting and allowing the others to push on. I am happy with the quality of our midfielders but still think it's a little unbalanced...
Really interested to know how we plan to play this season, I would love for us to have a defined formation and system that we know about and have in mind when recruiting. |
Agree with all of this.
On the unbalance, it's weird, our midfield situation seems to be the inverse of the problem we had 2/3 years ago when we had some passers/controllers of game (Faurlin) and a good pure DM in Henry (he was excellent in that Prem season) but never seemed to have a leggy player who could get box to box, covering a lot of ground.
Now we have Manning, Cousins, Luongo and seemingly Scowen who all fit that bill but we lack someone who can run a game at this level or someone who can play a disciplined holding role.
I think Manning can develop into the former, his eye for a pass is excellent, and that can only improve with game time and exposure. And by no means is it a criticism of Cousins, Luongo or the signing of Scowen (I think it's a really good move) but just think it'll be interesting to see how we line up.
The 3421 is so in vogue right now, and I've actually quite liked Manning at WB - so wondering how this side might work?
Smithies
Onuoha Hall Lynch
Furlong Scowen Luongo Manning
Freeman Washington
Smith/Sylla [Post edited 27 Jun 2017 10:53]
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| Josh Scowen on 11:01 - Jun 27 with 4589 views | rsonist |
| Josh Scowen on 10:18 - Jun 27 by Hunterhoop |
I worry you're right, Dave.
My concern is both those formations can end up with us playing extremely narrow and direct, when our forwards thrive best off crosses, one of our best players is Wszolek (and out and out winger), and attacking wing play is what the LR crowd like.
He needs to find a way that in the 433, the wide forwards play genuinely wide and one, if not two, of the central 3 midfielders, can break late into the box to support Smith/Sylla.
I still think we're better suited to a 442, with Freeman and Wszolek wide, the former tucking in, and then Washington dropping deep to support the central midfield when we lose the ball (in the way Chery never did). Him off Smith gives us numbers in the box, Freeman and Wszolek provide the creativity. In the centre I'd have Luongo and Manning/Cousins at home, and replace one with Hall/genuine DM away. |
Disagree.... IMO the only progress we've made under Ollie (whether through luck or judgement...) was with that flexible 3-5-2/4-3-3 centred around Hall.
Across the park the formation immediately highlighted our players strengths, covered their weaknesses, controlled the space better, and gave us a numerical advantage as required. It was a Plan A and B already rolled into one, a foundation to build on that just needed practice practice and more practice until its demands became automatic.
Ollie then went out and bought several players who not only didn't contribute to that flexibility but actively took away from it - Lua Lua, Morrison, Smith, Goss - not necessarily untalented players but who had particular specialist requirements that needed catering for ie tinkering, experimenting etc. (Freeman turned out to be a surprise winner, despite no one in the world including himself expecting him to be able to play #8). Basically we added more breadth (unnecessary tactical "options") but not more depth (enough squad to continue with the main plan through injury and suspension).
Nines times out of ten when people these days say a team's more suited to 4-4-2 it actually just means the manager and players are too thick/crap to cope with anything other than the basics they grew up on and it's too dangerous to attempt otherwise. As you yourself suggest the 4-3-3 is capable of providing width as long as it's done right - so how about Ollie does that then? At the end of the day the Championship is a marathon grinding slog that demands clarity of mind and repetition to the point of automation. That doesn't mean you can't have complexity too though. |  | | |
| Josh Scowen on 11:04 - Jun 27 with 4581 views | rsonist |
I know a Charlton fan who sat though many years of being frustrated by Cousins limitations in midfield. He thinks his real position is Dani Alves style right back, just no one's ever tried him there...
EDIT I also agree with WadR that Manning at LWB might not necessarily be a bodge job. I'm not a very big fan of Robinson mind. [Post edited 27 Jun 2017 11:08]
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| Josh Scowen on 11:22 - Jun 27 with 4503 views | Northernr |
| Josh Scowen on 11:04 - Jun 27 by rsonist |
I know a Charlton fan who sat though many years of being frustrated by Cousins limitations in midfield. He thinks his real position is Dani Alves style right back, just no one's ever tried him there...
EDIT I also agree with WadR that Manning at LWB might not necessarily be a bodge job. I'm not a very big fan of Robinson mind. [Post edited 27 Jun 2017 11:08]
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I quite like the idea of Manning playing there, looked good when used there at times last season. Another actual experiment we could have made more of when we were experimenting at the end of the season :-| |  | | |
| Josh Scowen on 11:25 - Jun 27 with 4486 views | Dorse |
| Josh Scowen on 11:01 - Jun 27 by rsonist |
Disagree.... IMO the only progress we've made under Ollie (whether through luck or judgement...) was with that flexible 3-5-2/4-3-3 centred around Hall.
Across the park the formation immediately highlighted our players strengths, covered their weaknesses, controlled the space better, and gave us a numerical advantage as required. It was a Plan A and B already rolled into one, a foundation to build on that just needed practice practice and more practice until its demands became automatic.
Ollie then went out and bought several players who not only didn't contribute to that flexibility but actively took away from it - Lua Lua, Morrison, Smith, Goss - not necessarily untalented players but who had particular specialist requirements that needed catering for ie tinkering, experimenting etc. (Freeman turned out to be a surprise winner, despite no one in the world including himself expecting him to be able to play #8). Basically we added more breadth (unnecessary tactical "options") but not more depth (enough squad to continue with the main plan through injury and suspension).
Nines times out of ten when people these days say a team's more suited to 4-4-2 it actually just means the manager and players are too thick/crap to cope with anything other than the basics they grew up on and it's too dangerous to attempt otherwise. As you yourself suggest the 4-3-3 is capable of providing width as long as it's done right - so how about Ollie does that then? At the end of the day the Championship is a marathon grinding slog that demands clarity of mind and repetition to the point of automation. That doesn't mean you can't have complexity too though. |
Much as I dislike Leicester, they won the Prem playing 442. Bastards.
Anyway, I've been rattling on about 352 for ages and I think with Furlong / Robinson we have the players to make it work. However, I still believe we need an option at CB. We saw last season what a difference one injury to a CB made. We had no alternatives: no one was ready to step up from the U23s and it's clear from the Portugal squad that there still isn't. Smegma will probably have a better idea as he has seen more of them but there were high(ish) hopes for some of the defenders (Finney seemed highly rated and Chris Paul is always held up as a decent communicator).
My concern with 352 is the question of where we play our flair players. Wzsolek, Ngbakoto and Freeman will not be able to play together and, frankly, I can't see where we'd play Wzsolek in that system.
I like the 2 up front: I honestly think that we'd see Washington tear it up as part of a 2. |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Josh Scowen on 11:37 - Jun 27 with 4440 views | rsonist |
| Josh Scowen on 11:25 - Jun 27 by Dorse |
Much as I dislike Leicester, they won the Prem playing 442. Bastards.
Anyway, I've been rattling on about 352 for ages and I think with Furlong / Robinson we have the players to make it work. However, I still believe we need an option at CB. We saw last season what a difference one injury to a CB made. We had no alternatives: no one was ready to step up from the U23s and it's clear from the Portugal squad that there still isn't. Smegma will probably have a better idea as he has seen more of them but there were high(ish) hopes for some of the defenders (Finney seemed highly rated and Chris Paul is always held up as a decent communicator).
My concern with 352 is the question of where we play our flair players. Wzsolek, Ngbakoto and Freeman will not be able to play together and, frankly, I can't see where we'd play Wzsolek in that system.
I like the 2 up front: I honestly think that we'd see Washington tear it up as part of a 2. |
Leicester and Atletico Madrid's 4-4-2's worked on the principles of berserker pressing and in Kante's case an inhuman outlier single workload. Luckily enough though I think I did see a Barnsley fan on Twitter saying Scowan was the Championship Kante...
Agree 3-5-2 doesn't suit us as a starting formation - the Furlong/Wszolek tandem was one of the highlights of the season when we saw it. I don't have any answers for Ngbakoto sadly - would be surprised if he's here past the summer in fact. [Post edited 27 Jun 2017 11:38]
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| Josh Scowen on 12:56 - Jun 27 with 4193 views | Dando |
We did do well/better with Hall in the DM position, but I also feel like the actual defence was weaker without him in it. For me, his qualities are defending and tackling, whilst also showing composure. If he was moved back to CB, I think someone like Scowen would most likely be better on the ball than Hall in the DM position (assuming thats where he plays)?
What worries me at the moment about the squad is that I see a lack of goals. Freeman is a threat but not really prolific, Smith is good in the air but unlikely to get more than maybe 10 a season, Washington still very hit and miss and then there Sylla who also divides opinion. In midfield, we dont really have anyone who is going to chip in as many goals as Chery etc which I hope is addressed.
Like most others say, we need our wingers to play on the wings in order to get the ball in the box - otherwise thats one less threat once again. its difficult to predict what Ollie is going to do. If hes going to clearly play with wingers, or keep chopping and changing every game to the point nobody has a clue who will play, where they will play week in week out. Hoping for a more settled and clear team selection this year [Post edited 27 Jun 2017 12:57]
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| Josh Scowen on 14:43 - Jun 27 with 3980 views | Hunterhoop |
| Josh Scowen on 11:01 - Jun 27 by rsonist |
Disagree.... IMO the only progress we've made under Ollie (whether through luck or judgement...) was with that flexible 3-5-2/4-3-3 centred around Hall.
Across the park the formation immediately highlighted our players strengths, covered their weaknesses, controlled the space better, and gave us a numerical advantage as required. It was a Plan A and B already rolled into one, a foundation to build on that just needed practice practice and more practice until its demands became automatic.
Ollie then went out and bought several players who not only didn't contribute to that flexibility but actively took away from it - Lua Lua, Morrison, Smith, Goss - not necessarily untalented players but who had particular specialist requirements that needed catering for ie tinkering, experimenting etc. (Freeman turned out to be a surprise winner, despite no one in the world including himself expecting him to be able to play #8). Basically we added more breadth (unnecessary tactical "options") but not more depth (enough squad to continue with the main plan through injury and suspension).
Nines times out of ten when people these days say a team's more suited to 4-4-2 it actually just means the manager and players are too thick/crap to cope with anything other than the basics they grew up on and it's too dangerous to attempt otherwise. As you yourself suggest the 4-3-3 is capable of providing width as long as it's done right - so how about Ollie does that then? At the end of the day the Championship is a marathon grinding slog that demands clarity of mind and repetition to the point of automation. That doesn't mean you can't have complexity too though. |
I don't think we're really disagreeing though. The 5-3-2 (it was far more that than 3-5-2) worked well in some games, and didn't against others.
The 4-4-2 looked going going forward and frightening defensively. Personally, I've watched QPR for long enough, and will, fingers crossed be watching them for decades more, to say I'd rather we threw caution to the wind and tried to win, even it means conceding, than try to win 1-0.
Personally, on a formation front, I still like 4-2-3-1, and can accept 4-3-3, but only, in both cases. When the wide players of the '3' (in the 4-2-3-1) and the wide forwards (in the 4-3-3), genuinely play truly wide and slightly deep off their full back (i.e. not back to back with him). Problem is, that so rarely happened under Ollie and JFH. So often, we ended up with 3 players (a target man plus two "wingers") playing with their back to goal. No wonder the defence and midfield have to pump it long!
In Wszolek we have one of the best right wingers in the league. We have to find a way to play him right wing. Our forwards score almost all their goals from getting on the end of crosses. So set up to play with width and sling it in from wide. To be honest, those two things should drive any formation or way of playing Holloway selects, unless our personnel changes significantly.
Yes, it'll mean we're open in the middle of the park or short of a forward in the box to get on the end of said cross. Both scenarios gone down to our central midfielders either having the discipline to sit deep and stay goalside (in scenario 1), to limit our openness, or then having the legs to get into the box to support Smith or Sulla and get on the end of crosses. I haven't Sen enough of either from Holloway yet. Just a simple "less attacking/more defensive" balance or rhetoric about new players.
I don't think it's an impossible situation for him. If he can find a way to give us width and not be as wide open as a hooker's legs, we're not far off being a decent team. |  | | |
| Josh Scowen on 16:13 - Jun 27 with 3816 views | BasingstokeR |
Who do we think Scowen being brought in to replace or compete directly with?
Willing to be proved wrong but don't think we need a central midfielder unless one of the squad is injured or actively agitating for a move, or maybe we were bringing in a big tall strong combatative CM so Hall can play purely CB. Scowen didn't stand out from what I saw of Barnsley last season and mixed reactions on the Barnsley boards from what I can see. |  | | |
| Josh Scowen on 16:16 - Jun 27 with 3809 views | QPR_John |
| Josh Scowen on 16:13 - Jun 27 by BasingstokeR |
Who do we think Scowen being brought in to replace or compete directly with?
Willing to be proved wrong but don't think we need a central midfielder unless one of the squad is injured or actively agitating for a move, or maybe we were bringing in a big tall strong combatative CM so Hall can play purely CB. Scowen didn't stand out from what I saw of Barnsley last season and mixed reactions on the Barnsley boards from what I can see. |
Why take note of other boards when assessing players. How many times have we praised players we want to leave and vice versa | | | |
| Josh Scowen on 16:26 - Jun 27 with 3775 views | kensalriser |
Sort of echoing what Hunter says: we have a good winger in Wszolek and in Smith and Sylla two forwards with proven ability to score from deliveries into the box. Play to your strengths and all that. |  |
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| Josh Scowen on 16:29 - Jun 27 with 3761 views | MedwayR |
If I was Ollie I'd be focusing on 2 banks of 4 which would allow us to use 4-1-4-1 with either Hall in front of the defence or Goss behind the midfield depending on how attacking we wanted to be, 4-4-1-1 which could make good use of Ngbakoto playing behind Sylla or Smith, or 4-4-2 which would play to Washington's strengths.
If we got the 2 banks of 4 well drilled I think we could easily switch between those 3 formations depending on the opposition without too many problems. All the above formations also closely resemble other formations; 4-1-4-1 (4-5-1/4-3-3/3-4-3), 4-4-1-1 (4-2-3-1), 4-4-2 (4-2-4, diamond), with a little tinkering and also makes use of the squad. |  |
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| Josh Scowen on 16:31 - Jun 27 with 3751 views | Dorse |
| Josh Scowen on 16:26 - Jun 27 by kensalriser |
Sort of echoing what Hunter says: we have a good winger in Wszolek and in Smith and Sylla two forwards with proven ability to score from deliveries into the box. Play to your strengths and all that. |
'So, Mr Kensal, you persist with this heresy about wanting to play with wingers despite it being against the teachings of the Olly Father?' | |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Josh Scowen on 11:55 - Jul 1 with 3431 views | francisbowles |
Scowen confirmed on the offy! | | | |
| Josh Scowen on 12:58 - Jul 1 with 3244 views | DejR_vu |
Sounds like a humble lad. Hope he does well. | |
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| Josh Scowen on 13:55 - Jul 1 with 3164 views | loftboy |
He has a Gary Penrice Tache!! |  |
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| Josh Scowen on 15:51 - Jul 1 with 3014 views | ThGrimRanger |
very good signing at this level - welcome Josh |  |
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| Josh Scowen on 23:11 - Jul 1 with 2783 views | TacticalR |
| Josh Scowen on 21:40 - Jun 26 by UPPERLOFTNZ |
The Polish lad Ariel will no doubt get the boot... and can anyone see cousins being fit enough to play more than a dozen games? |
Away at Brighton Borysiuk looked shell-shocked and Cousins looked a complete clodhopper. |  |
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| Josh Scowen on 09:50 - Jul 2 with 2649 views | Hayesender |
Now he's officially signed, can we slag him off yet? |  |
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| Josh Scowen on 11:06 - Jul 2 with 2589 views | terryb |
| Josh Scowen on 09:50 - Jul 2 by Hayesender |
Now he's officially signed, can we slag him off yet? |
Questions should be asked as to why he is sulking in the UK instead of taking part in the hardest pre season ever in Portugal! | | | |
| Josh Scowen on 11:11 - Jul 2 with 2586 views | Dorse |
| Josh Scowen on 09:50 - Jul 2 by Hayesender |
Now he's officially signed, can we slag him off yet? |
Didn't even bring his own pen to sign the contract - very poor. Sponging stationary off the club. Get rid. | |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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