For 43 minutes on Saturday at Middlesbrough everything looked to be clicking into place and then suddenly it all went wrong and it was the same old problems emerging, so where do we go from here !

There was a shock in the starting line up for Saints, Ryan Manning has been the whipping boy of many Southampton supporters, but he was axed for this one with Kyle Walker Peters switching to the left back position and Mason Holgate coming in at right back. Jan Bednarek was restored to the starting line up alongside Taylor Harwood Bellis.

It was a solid central 3 of Downes, Charles and Smallbone, with a front 3 of Fraser, Adams & Adam Armstrong.

This looked a decent enough starting line up and I would have said that most Saints supporters would agree with it bar the odd change.

There was a change in the way we were playing as well, we were not pressing and getting caught on the break, we concentrated on getting behind the ball and then moving it forward quickly, although Boro dominated possession early on, we looked comfortable with everyone doing their job.

On 17 minutes it paid off, a quick ball from Downes to Adams saw the striker lay a lovely weighted ball for Adam Armstrong to run onto and slot home.

Everything now looked hunky dory, we were in control of the game and although Boro had the odd chance, in the main with two minutes to go we were in command.

Then came the shot in the foot moment, Mason Holgate will get the bulk of the supporters ire, but in truth it wasn't completely his fault, he was given a pass that he could do little with and he doesn't seem to have been given the call that there was a man on, he was caught in possession and suddenly the game was all square.

Holgate didn't appear for the second half and I don't see that as good man management by Russell Martin, the Everton loanee had been ok up to that moment, why humiliate him for that mistake.

Before the break the crowd were starting to turn on Boro, but we handed them back hope and in the second half the home side were up for it.

On 66 minutes came the winner, in many respects it had all the hallmark of the Boro first goal, this time Shea Charles was played a ball that facing his own goal he could do little with and he was turned over and the ball played into the penalty area, Taylor Harwood Bellis was fouled first with his shirt being pulled, but the referee saw only the second offence and the resulting penalty was fired home.

We had suddenly lost all our composure and we rarely threatened to get a goal back in the last 20 minutes.

So where did it all go wrong, well that is easy the same way it went wrong against Ipswich on Tuesday night.

The problem is playing balls out of the back four, the recipients, in this case Holgate and Charles are receiving the ball facing their own goal and being pressed, having been given the ball they were not given outlets and it enables side to turn them over.

It is easy to say Holgate should have smashed the ball into the stand, but he was unaware of the man coming into him, he had his back to him as he should do to receive a pass from the back four.

From this perspective it is just as much the fault of the man who passed him the ball and his team mates around him to warn him of the approaching player, Holgate may have sat back thinking he had time on the ball, but those around him could see what was about to happen, they are more culpable than he is in this respect, they should have told him to clear the ball.

This is a constant problem, we are playing balls into feet, but we are going too tight, the opposition is giving us space and then closing us down, as I say the man receiving the ball has to be facing his own goal to receive it, we are playing balls to feet and he has to face the man who is passing it to him.

Jan Bednarek brought some steel into the side but to be honest his passing skills are not up to the level we need if we are to play out of defence, of course he can pass a ball, but not to the standard that this type of football requires, it is not his game, nothing personal to Bednarek, it is just a fact.

So what does Russell Martin do now, there is an inherent flaw in his system, he told us at the start of the season that getting the team playing the way he wants them to will take time and in truth it has improved from the debacles against Sunderland & Leicester, we have competed in both the Ipswich game and this one, but ultimately we have lost again due to individual error.

I have always maintained that managers cannot be blamed for individual errors and ours will be tearing his hair out, he did all things right, well at least for 43 minutes, the confidence was building and then it was all knocked down by a moment of madness.

That isn't the managers fault, but truth is how long can we go on throwing games away in this manner, Martin has to adopt the style, the players seem to think they rigidly have to pass the ball even in the tightest positions, they have to have the leeway to freestyle sometimes and that means clearing the ball when under pressure rather than trying to play out of it.

All of the attacks that Boro had on Saturday seemed to come where we played ourselves into cul de sacs and left the man holding the ball with no where to go next, whether it was out on the touchline or as it was on Saturday more central, we play ourselves into a corner so to speak and we can't seem to accept that the only way out sometimes is to go long.

Now it is 4 defeats in a row and we face inform Leeds united on Saturday in what will be a tough game at the best of times, now is when we see what Russell Martin is made of, is he the man to turn this around or is he a one trick pony.

The problem is that in the 7 years since Ronald Koeman left, Martin is the 8th manager, only 1, Ralph Hasenhuttl has lasted more than a season, indeed only 1 other Claude Puel has actually done a full season, this tells us something, not that the club doesn't know what it is doing, after all this is the 3rd regime in charge since 2016, but that panicking at the first obstacle is often not the best thing.

Changing managers may appeal to some, but before you do it you have to have the solution in place, but aside from that 8 games is not enough to make judgement, especially when you consider that in the first 4 of those Martin did not know what is squad would be with a plethora of ins & outs in the final fortnight of August.

We are still only 5 points from the play offs, we have the squad to pull it round, but the key is now the manager, he has to show the supporters that he is the man.

Photo: Action Images

davidargyll added 09:25 - Sep 25 Looking at the last few games, has anybody really seen any change in the way we play compared with the second half of last season? Apart from the addition of this absurd tippy-tappy nonsense that is. In other words isn’t it still a defence that generally hasn’t a clue coupled with a mostly toothless attack? And even if you were to put a (ludicrously optimistic?) rosy glow on our performances so far (and most would argue that we are heading south, big time) what evidence is there that the corner has, if not exactly, been turned, at least flattening out? - Not losing so heavily? Maybe. But a loss, especially from a winning position, is loss however you tart it up. - Exciting football despite the results? You mean it’s more entertaining than drying paint? - A happy and confident squad? I don’t think I’ve seen a smiling face in the squad all season. - Fans behind the manager? Do me a favour…! So if we can see it, surely the Board can see it too, in which case HOW MUCH MORE PROOF DO THEY NEED TO SEE THAT RUSSELL MARTIN IS SIMPLY NOT UP TO THE JOB? - The definition of incompetence is the inability to have or show the necessary skills to do something successfully. - The definition of arrogance is foolishly believing that everyone is inferior to you, looks up to you, and should bow down to your graces. - The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. - The definition of stupidity is the failure to see things as they really are. The definition of Russell Martin is…

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mgprobert added 09:38 - Sep 25 Well, as you say, for most of the first half it was all good. But - the team seem to have a collective self doubt / inferiority complex which they do their best to hide but which comes out as soon as the opposition scores. It comes from losing so many games, sometimes heavily. Difficult to turn around, and you have to feel for the manager but as us old uns know you have to start at the back and build from a solid defence (remember those days?). If you don't concede you don't lose, and gradually confidence builds. No short-term fix, unfortunately, and we're in for a few more disappointments before we go upwards again. Lets hope things click soon.

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felly1 added 09:50 - Sep 25 Think you are right about sticking with the manager. I know that's an unpopular opinion at the moment but I'm fed up of lurching from one bad decision to the next. As others have stated , the owners will only go for another leftfield gamble .
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saintmark1976 added 09:50 - Sep 25 A team going nowhere with a manager who has never been anywhere.
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SaintPaulVW added 09:53 - Sep 25 It's a tricky problem. Quite often success can follow a period when things don't go right. However if they keep on going wrong, it would probably have been better to change earlier. For this game RM clearly tried to adapt his style to make us more robust. For 30 minutes it looked good but 30 minutes won't win you games. As long as he keeps adapting his approach, I believe he should be given more time. However it shouldn't be a whole season if there is no real improvement in results. What is unacceptable are the stupid post match comments. The scar tissue nonsense is daft and the comments on Alcaraz are just stupid. He needs to shut up or blame the ref for the penalty if he wants a distraction. Yes there were lots of errors but are these due to individuals who can be dropped, or a creeping failure of belief in the new system which is stifling the whole team? I'm still not sure but if we have a losing run of say 7 or 8 games, and there are still errors, I think those, like me, whose minds aren't made up yet will want to see a change. COYR

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davidargyll added 09:54 - Sep 25 PS. Only 5 points off the play offs? Well yes. But only 5 points of relegation too!
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stmichael added 09:57 - Sep 25 You have to have good players to play the system we play. Harry Winks is the best player in the league bar none and when we knew JWP was going we should have been ALL IN to sign him. He was constantly under pressure receiving the ball from His back four and ALWAYS wanted the ball and ALWAYS beat the press. Our defenders and midfield players are totally unsuited to the system and actually resemble a kids team they are so bad at it… Where do we go from here new team or new manager ?

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Boris1977 added 10:02 - Sep 25 Well done to the fans for travelling up and showing vocal support to the team. Not much to add to the usual comments over the last few weeks. Markus Liebherr aside we seem to attract owners who do not realise the potential within our club. SR have got all the big calls badly wrong since they arrived so while they are in charge staying solvent will be the biggest achievement for the club. If they arnt going to spend money on quality when there a massive trade surplus what will they do when that money dwindles due to operational costs. On the managerial side there is a reason we get arrogant mediocrity - any manager who does not insist on complete control over the players they sell and buy and manage is hobbling himself from the off. A win against the bottom team in the league (who we are 5 points ahead of with a similar GD) would have instilled some level of positivity into the team but the usual inabilities came to the fore again and it could have been worse had Boro not squandered a some very good opportunities - but that is what teams at the bottom of the league do. The few fortunate wins last month flattered to deceive but the genuine issues were there and plain to see with the slightest scratch of the surface. I'm not sure where the next points are coming from but what can we do other than support the club and players. COYRs

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wibbersda added 10:07 - Sep 25 What is it with managers from these lower leagues, bigging themselves up without achieving anything?
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Boris1977 added 10:20 - Sep 25 wibbersda - I think they think that if they talk themselves up it makes them look strong and dynamic rather than that arrogant and foolish.
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halftimeorange added 10:22 - Sep 25 I don't see us getting relegated but, I can't believe promotion is a possibility with a squad which appears to be confused and, in some cases, demotivated by being asked to play in too complex a way. RM might have his admirers within the think tanks of our sport but, to us ordinary fans he is showing no signs of knowing the way forward than any of us if we were put in charge. Once you lose your support, especially in these hard times when for many going to the match is a treat, rather than taken for granted, then you are on a very rocky road. The players might publicly say they've bought into the system but, won't enjoy telling their wives and partners they've been booed off the pitch yet again, especially those who have previously tasted success at various levels of the game. The other thing about Russell Martin is the words he's now spouting about scar tissue, Charly 's head not being right, players not doing what he wants of them. It all adds up to a manager who expects time if - and in my view, it's a big if - to turn this around. By then fans will be spending their money elsewhere and the better players will be queueing up at their agents asking to move.

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JoeEgg added 10:26 - Sep 25 We have just played the Championship's bottom club who were understandably a club struggling and totally lacking in confidence. Nick doesn't mention the two simple chances that Boro missed and could have made the final score much worse! The scar tissue reference - as others have already pointed out- is complete nonsense as at least seven of the starting eleven weren't even here to acquire that feeling of doubt and fear! Russell Martin's style - presumably attempting to immitate the Man City way - cannot succeed with players who are not skilful or expereinced enough to implement it. One mistake playing out from the back and you go a goal down. And if you think Adams will get the chance to cancel out that mistahe at the other end, then first you need to take into consideration the number of times he will most probably miss! As I said in my preview to the this game the result would be close and could go either way depending on which side got luckiest and made the least number of fatal mistakes. We are not playing the likes of Arsenal and Man City for goodness sake, we are now playing some of the poorest sides in the Championship. We have sold a wealth of talent and replaced them with players unwanted or ineffective at their previous clubs and some youngsters- probably with promising futures - but having no experience and little confidence - but asked to come in and play a style of football that doesn't suit their current situation. We have chosen the wrong route to go down and I'm afraid we are stuck with it. We will win a few games no doubt, but for those of us who were really excitied about the opportunties a season in the Championship would afford us, this has turned already into bitter disappointment.

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andoverpedro added 10:29 - Sep 25 Rudderless floating down the river thats what we look like with no captains and leaders on the pitch . There is no organising ,no one giving anyone a shout a bunch of kids god how we need a dean hammond/ Steve davis/ Jose Fonte type figure . We have truelly ballsed up in this transfer window not getting someone or 2 or 3 in like this once again just like last year untried kids. For all this i blame the Board not the manager Jason willcox should know better .

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davenbennett added 10:33 - Sep 25 It's not Martin it's Sports Republic. They got him in as he played the style they want. So sacking him won't change anything. I have been saying since the 1st game that the tippy tappy crappyball style is suicidal. Only the elite clubs with elite players can do it, and even then they can ship goals from fannying around at the back. Man City scored after a 46 pass move. Great. SR seem to think that buying ex MC youth and getting in Wilcox and other backroom staff, we can play like MC. It's great to have a dream - until you realise it's just a nightmare!

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davidhosey added 10:35 - Sep 25 You say we are only 5 points off the play-offs as if that should give us hope. But Nick you have to ask yourself how well we would do with this team and manager even if by some miracle we made it to the Premier league through the play-offs. I can't remember being this depressed about Saints in the 50 years I have supported them. When we were in League 1 I had hope and I could see the plan in action. Now I feel we are crumbling. The owner clearly has no idea how important the manager is to a team and no idea how to pick a good one. The managers are causing a talented squad to lose confidence and belief. How I would love to see a manager come in and start from scratch by instilling the art of defending into the whole team. When you are conceding bucketfuls of goals you have to go back to basics and take pride in defending and keeping clean sheets. Russell Martin can't grasp this and doesn't understand that the defenders we have are not in the same league as Man City. We will get caught out every time. I don't know what the answer is but this season looks like trouble!

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SanMarco added 10:35 - Sep 25 I suppose it is SR bigging them up by appointing them wibbersda! Nick describes JB as "not to the standard that this type of football requires" but that applies across the board in the defensive positions (bar KWP). The modern way is for managers to have 'philosophies' - I think it must be drummed into them in first year of manager school . mgprobert's building from a strong defence has moved down the curriculum. RM is attempting to implement a 'philosophy' that he doesn't have the players for. What happens next? He needs to adapt. Will he? Can he? Imagine if we kick off at home vs Rotherham having lost six in a row and a couple of points off relegation. I tend to be a pessimist but I really don't feel good about this - and pessimists are sometimes right (especially about the Saints in recent times).

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landsdownsaint added 10:39 - Sep 25 Players don’t look happy & to play the way RM wants means you have to have top quality in every position , it’s the same mistake every week & I actually felt sorry for Holgate on Saturday. RM certainly sees the game different from others including managers & pundits , his comment about “ that wouldn’t have happened if Downs was playing “ earlier in the season sums him up really , the midfield is so weak, KWP can’t be happy playing in this team he’s an excellent footballer & I don’t think he’s getting confusing instructions

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pjt50 added 10:39 - Sep 25 Don't want to appear over-pessimistic on a Monday morning but I'm beginning to ask myself “what's the point?” I think most people agree that, whether under Martin or another manager, we have a squad that's good enough to make the play-offs. If we achieve promotion what's the prize? A season in the PL with a squad that's far weaker than the one that got us relegated last season. We've lost at least five quality players. Can't see anybody in the current squad stepping up – or SR buying the players we'd need to have even an outside chance of staying up.

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landsdownsaint added 10:42 - Sep 25 Do think
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Bowlercow added 10:53 - Sep 25 I believe the players are now overcoached There is no room for individual decision making and no room for flair players Even the great George Best would struggle to get a game these days because he would never fit into a "system" No plan can be set for a whole game let alone a whole season and some times players should be allowed to play what the see The clue is in the move that led to our goal Speed

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IanRC added 11:42 - Sep 25 Is Nigel Atkins or Ralph free ?, I cannot take much more of this garbage. Martin should be sacked purely for his comments about Alcaraz who is one of our best if not the best player we have at the moment is not given a start. Thought Holgate played well and was unlucky, he should have got a call from someone and Martin’s substitution of him for the appalling Manning (who was awol from his position much of the second half allowing Boro to maraud with freedom on that side) was pathetic. I really find the women’s team much more professional and polished in their approach, if you are fed up with SR and RMs drivel with regard to the men’s team you could do worse than to go and see them. At least they have a realistic chance of promotion and a good manager.

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Kingsland34 added 11:55 - Sep 25 I am not posting this as a defence of tippy tappy or RM's style but this is not just a Saints thing. Its a current stupid football fashion whose inherent risks permeates even the top echelons. Watching MofD shows that its not just Mason Holgate or some other hapless Saint that gets caught out, its regularly happening at the highest level as well.
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Jesus_02 added 12:01 - Sep 25 Holgate wasn’t good enough for a poor Everton team, he was an awful signing regardless of his part in the goal. Alcaraz is probably the best player at the club. Newcastle are rumoured to be in for him in Jan. Sulemana has everything needed to dominate in this League. We have a manager that refuses to play to our strengths and a squad that don’t seem convinced of his tactics.

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saint901 added 12:15 - Sep 25 I've posted elsewhere that I think the present situation is very much the fault of SR and RM. The possession/passing game is not suitable for this league. The recipient of a pass will get closed down (and the ball taken off them) quickly because they don't have the skill or confidence to be able to avoid the incoming tackler. It's not just this season that the failure of the possession/passing game has been evident. It did Swansea no good. Previous PL teams dropping into the Champ who tried to maintain this style soon reverted to a more direct strategy. This is not rocket science. If your defenders cannot pass a ball 15 yards; if nobody is willing to warn recipients of the ball of being closed down; if the team is unable or unwilling to maintain the passing game when it works, but abandon it when losing, then it's not working and should be changed. RM seems to be a stubborn man and is basically saying that his system will work. I hope he is right, but I fear he is not. By the time the team is playing "his way", we'll be deep into season. I see comments about the present passing game not being the "Saints way". Fair enough. Letting in three but scoring (or trying to score) four is exciting and many of us would prefer that to the frankly boring and ineffective fare we have now. That is not however what SR want and the manager is prepare to do what the owners want and not what the supporters want. That can end only one way, a schism between fans and the club. That is already evident in what we see. If the team is playing at or close to RM's "way", we're in trouble. If RM's "way" will not get us promoted - why stick with it? If RM's "way" will maintain us for a couple of seasons in the Champ before going to L1, but keep the owners happy, at the expense of boring football and fans disillusioned, why stick with it?

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DellBoyWally added 12:34 - Sep 25 Wow! We conceded exactly as I predicted on Friday!! We are 11 points from promotion and 12 teams between us at that target! We are 3 points from a risky playoff spot with 8 teams who might have a say in that! We are 5 points from relegation and 6 teams between us!! That's the reality!! Neal Warnock is free! My view - 0.5 out of 10 Ralp Hassenthutl is free and still being paid! Bring him back for the rest of the season (If he'd even come!) My view - 6 out of 10 Graham Potter is free. Offer him a contract for the rest of the season. If we don't get promoted both manager and club have option to split. If we get promoted, pay him his bonus and offer a 2 or 3 year PL contract with option to leave if a top 4 or 6 club come in with an appropriate and acceptable offer. My view - 9.5 out of 10 SR say they're willing to spend to get the club where we should be. Good. Then go get GP in and show the fans they actually mean it and care!!

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