| General Election Thread 17:46 - May 22 with 243897 views | loftboy |
This will be the first election that I have no idea who to vote for, will never vote Tory again after the lies during covid where my dad lost his life, don’t trust starmer, would never vote for a bunch of racists like reform , anyone give me a clue?
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| General Election Thread on 14:12 - Jun 13 with 1515 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 14:09 - Jun 13 by BazzaInTheLoft |
What about between 2010 and 2019/20? |
How did the Tories manage to begin the downtrend immediately after they took office in a coalition? We can all see how incompetent and ineffective they are - Yet you want us to believe the downtrend in life expectancy is an immediate direct outcome of their work? Yeah right |  |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 14:15 - Jun 13 with 1508 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 13:55 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
I don't think I have missed any "point" being made. You are gleefully pointing out that people, who have been told that democracy is a great thing, are being shown how their vote does not matter, even when they are the majority. I don't expect you to apologise for anything, but at the same time, surely you can't pretend to believe in democracy and concurrently take this stance on such an undemocratic outcome?
Maybe I've got you wrong and you have never believed in democracy in the first place, apologies if so. |
I do believe in democracy. I believe politicians should deliver what they promise (how old fashioned does that make me!). And if they know they can't deliver it they shouldn't promise it. It is Farage, Johnson and Sunak who promised voters that they would cut immigration and they completely failed, or in the case of the Tories never intended to follow through on the promise. They are the people you should be angry with. They are the people who lied to you. You can hardly blame me for pointing out that literally THE key thing Brexiteers and Conservatives promised in the biggest vote this country faced in half a century turned out to be a whopping lie. Brexiteers can't just say "oops, nothing to see here."
I am not surprised people are angry that they have been lied to, but don't direct that anger at Remainers for simply highlight a simple fact: immigration has gone up, and not just by a little bit, it has soared. And rather than admitting their lie, the Tories are doubling down on it. Sunak is banging on about stopping the boats (he can't even do that) when he knows full well that the boats account for a tiny fraction of the immigrants he WELCOMES in legally.
Now I would say it was always going to be a lie because we were always likely to need immigration, so the promise to cut immigration was a bit like if the QPR board last season had promised us fans we would win the league. In other words, a promise they could never keep. You would dispute that and say the govt could easily stop it but for some reason choose not to do so. Lets agree to disagree on that point. But surely we both agree that the Brexit politicians lied massively about their central claim? |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 14:18 - Jun 13 with 1479 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 14:12 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
How did the Tories manage to begin the downtrend immediately after they took office in a coalition? We can all see how incompetent and ineffective they are - Yet you want us to believe the downtrend in life expectancy is an immediate direct outcome of their work? Yeah right |
Ultimately you'll believe what you want, but i'm going on hard data.
Austerity didn't start under the coalition, it started in 2008. [Post edited 13 Jun 14:23]
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| General Election Thread on 14:25 - Jun 13 with 1428 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 14:15 - Jun 13 by Stainrod |
I do believe in democracy. I believe politicians should deliver what they promise (how old fashioned does that make me!). And if they know they can't deliver it they shouldn't promise it. It is Farage, Johnson and Sunak who promised voters that they would cut immigration and they completely failed, or in the case of the Tories never intended to follow through on the promise. They are the people you should be angry with. They are the people who lied to you. You can hardly blame me for pointing out that literally THE key thing Brexiteers and Conservatives promised in the biggest vote this country faced in half a century turned out to be a whopping lie. Brexiteers can't just say "oops, nothing to see here."
I am not surprised people are angry that they have been lied to, but don't direct that anger at Remainers for simply highlight a simple fact: immigration has gone up, and not just by a little bit, it has soared. And rather than admitting their lie, the Tories are doubling down on it. Sunak is banging on about stopping the boats (he can't even do that) when he knows full well that the boats account for a tiny fraction of the immigrants he WELCOMES in legally.
Now I would say it was always going to be a lie because we were always likely to need immigration, so the promise to cut immigration was a bit like if the QPR board last season had promised us fans we would win the league. In other words, a promise they could never keep. You would dispute that and say the govt could easily stop it but for some reason choose not to do so. Lets agree to disagree on that point. But surely we both agree that the Brexit politicians lied massively about their central claim? |
I mean, if you believe that the government *cannot* control immigration - in the same way that QPR *cannot* control whether they are going to win the league or not - then it seems likely you're just another Blairite open-borders fanatic. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 14:34 - Jun 13 with 1378 views | Watford_Ranger |
| General Election Thread on 14:12 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
How did the Tories manage to begin the downtrend immediately after they took office in a coalition? We can all see how incompetent and ineffective they are - Yet you want us to believe the downtrend in life expectancy is an immediate direct outcome of their work? Yeah right |
If public services that help keep people alive get worse then it seems quite logical people will start dying when they previously wouldn’t have. More poverty means more mental health problems. More mental health problems means more demand for services that help combat them. Less access to those services means deteriorating mental and physical health which tends to mean a higher likelihood of death. If your ambulance takes longer to reach you then you’re more likely to die. If you can’t get to your GP as quickly and then a consultant even less quickly then you’re more likely to die. If you can’t afford to miss work to get something checked out early then you’re more likely to die etc. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 14:35 - Jun 13 with 1367 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 14:18 - Jun 13 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Ultimately you'll believe what you want, but i'm going on hard data.
Austerity didn't start under the coalition, it started in 2008. [Post edited 13 Jun 14:23]
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We can all cherry-pick "Hard data" to support whatever argument we like. As I've explained regarding the grooming gang stuff, statistical evidence is basically meaningless in a country that only collects the data it feels comfortable collecting. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 14:38 - Jun 13 with 1367 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 14:25 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
I mean, if you believe that the government *cannot* control immigration - in the same way that QPR *cannot* control whether they are going to win the league or not - then it seems likely you're just another Blairite open-borders fanatic. |
You have completely sidestepped my question: do you agree with me that the Brexiteers massively lied to you when they said that thanks to Brexit they would bring down immigration? | | | |
| General Election Thread on 14:44 - Jun 13 with 1351 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 14:34 - Jun 13 by Watford_Ranger |
If public services that help keep people alive get worse then it seems quite logical people will start dying when they previously wouldn’t have. More poverty means more mental health problems. More mental health problems means more demand for services that help combat them. Less access to those services means deteriorating mental and physical health which tends to mean a higher likelihood of death. If your ambulance takes longer to reach you then you’re more likely to die. If you can’t get to your GP as quickly and then a consultant even less quickly then you’re more likely to die. If you can’t afford to miss work to get something checked out early then you’re more likely to die etc. |
Nice use of the "mental health" buzzword there, but I'm afraid it's all a bit abstract & meaningless.
Seems to me that the only thing the UK Government (Tory or Labour) can do effectively is hand out Visas, usually to people who hate us. Running a health service, crap. Educaton, crap. Justice, crap. Defence, crap. Intelligence services, crap. BBC, crap.
Is it because the Tories have been in charge? Or is it just that governments and the kind of people to get themselves into them are just crap? | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 14:47 - Jun 13 with 1339 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 14:38 - Jun 13 by Stainrod |
You have completely sidestepped my question: do you agree with me that the Brexiteers massively lied to you when they said that thanks to Brexit they would bring down immigration? |
Not really. I think it's all going on at a far higher pay grade than "Brexiteers" (By which I assume you mean Dominic Cummings or Farage rather than all the lads in the social club?)
I certainly don't think that "Brexiteers" are wrong to try and reverse whatever is going on at the highest level because it is quite obviously killing us. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 14:55 - Jun 13 with 1317 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 14:47 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
Not really. I think it's all going on at a far higher pay grade than "Brexiteers" (By which I assume you mean Dominic Cummings or Farage rather than all the lads in the social club?)
I certainly don't think that "Brexiteers" are wrong to try and reverse whatever is going on at the highest level because it is quite obviously killing us. |
By Brexiteers I mean the senior Conservatives who are running the country. They lied to you that "getting Brexit done" would "control" immigration. It hasn't.
Here's another example: Farage stood under a poster during the referendum saying words to the effect of: "If you don't vote for Brexit, 70m Turks will come to the UK." Leaving aside it was a preposterous claim - obviously not all Turkish people were ever going to come here, and Turkey wasn't even a member of the EU, nor is it going to be any time soon.
But Johnson and co never disowned that poster or Farage's claim.
Since you voted for Brexit there have been a couple of hundred thousand Turkish immigrants to the UK.
And you are absolutely right Sheffield - that was a CHOICE of this Conservative government.
Not of Remainers, not of the EU, not of Brexit, not of the Lib Dems, not of Labour.
So the Conservatives have imposed massive economic harm on the country by implementing the hardest of Brexits AND presided over record immigration.
You couldn't make it up. [Post edited 13 Jun 14:56]
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| General Election Thread on 14:56 - Jun 13 with 1304 views | Watford_Ranger |
| General Election Thread on 14:44 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
Nice use of the "mental health" buzzword there, but I'm afraid it's all a bit abstract & meaningless.
Seems to me that the only thing the UK Government (Tory or Labour) can do effectively is hand out Visas, usually to people who hate us. Running a health service, crap. Educaton, crap. Justice, crap. Defence, crap. Intelligence services, crap. BBC, crap.
Is it because the Tories have been in charge? Or is it just that governments and the kind of people to get themselves into them are just crap? |
It’s not a buzzword. Suicide is the number one cause of young male deaths. Many suicides are due to poor mental health. Mental health services in this country are hugely overstretched ergo logically more avoidable suicides. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 15:03 - Jun 13 with 1275 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 14:35 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
We can all cherry-pick "Hard data" to support whatever argument we like. As I've explained regarding the grooming gang stuff, statistical evidence is basically meaningless in a country that only collects the data it feels comfortable collecting. |
I’ve got whiplash from that change of subject! | | | |
| General Election Thread on 15:05 - Jun 13 with 1253 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 14:56 - Jun 13 by Watford_Ranger |
It’s not a buzzword. Suicide is the number one cause of young male deaths. Many suicides are due to poor mental health. Mental health services in this country are hugely overstretched ergo logically more avoidable suicides. |
Right. And what is your solution? How do we stop young men from committing suicide? I just don't think that throwing another several million per week at mental health trusts is going to do much. They already offer free talking therapy in any language the user needs. And CBT training, again translated into any language you need at enormous taxpayer expense. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 15:10 - Jun 13 with 1220 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 14:55 - Jun 13 by Stainrod |
By Brexiteers I mean the senior Conservatives who are running the country. They lied to you that "getting Brexit done" would "control" immigration. It hasn't.
Here's another example: Farage stood under a poster during the referendum saying words to the effect of: "If you don't vote for Brexit, 70m Turks will come to the UK." Leaving aside it was a preposterous claim - obviously not all Turkish people were ever going to come here, and Turkey wasn't even a member of the EU, nor is it going to be any time soon.
But Johnson and co never disowned that poster or Farage's claim.
Since you voted for Brexit there have been a couple of hundred thousand Turkish immigrants to the UK.
And you are absolutely right Sheffield - that was a CHOICE of this Conservative government.
Not of Remainers, not of the EU, not of Brexit, not of the Lib Dems, not of Labour.
So the Conservatives have imposed massive economic harm on the country by implementing the hardest of Brexits AND presided over record immigration.
You couldn't make it up. [Post edited 13 Jun 14:56]
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Aren't Sunak and Hunt in charge atm? Are they even Brexiteers? I strongly doubt it, even if they claim to be. Textbook globalists.
The Tory Government spent several million of our own money sending us all a leaflet telling us not to vote for the thing we were always going to end up voting for. Both sides used tricks and lies to benefit their argument. Get over it.
The anti-globalists won the referendum, and the globalists have been punishing us for it ever since. The Open borders fanatics (You) revel in it. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 15:14 - Jun 13 with 1203 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 15:03 - Jun 13 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I’ve got whiplash from that change of subject! |
Strange how nobody felt like replying to that post though init. Almost as if it's something we'd all rather not acknowledge the truth about.
P.s Time to consider some LFW insurance | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 15:17 - Jun 13 with 1205 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 15:14 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
Strange how nobody felt like replying to that post though init. Almost as if it's something we'd all rather not acknowledge the truth about.
P.s Time to consider some LFW insurance |
I think it’s more boredom / annoyance with the subject than fear. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 15:19 - Jun 13 with 1197 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 15:10 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
Aren't Sunak and Hunt in charge atm? Are they even Brexiteers? I strongly doubt it, even if they claim to be. Textbook globalists.
The Tory Government spent several million of our own money sending us all a leaflet telling us not to vote for the thing we were always going to end up voting for. Both sides used tricks and lies to benefit their argument. Get over it.
The anti-globalists won the referendum, and the globalists have been punishing us for it ever since. The Open borders fanatics (You) revel in it. |
Sunak is the prime minister and he campaigned for Brexit. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 15:20 - Jun 13 with 1185 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 15:17 - Jun 13 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I think it’s more boredom / annoyance with the subject than fear. |
So fitting that the institutionalized rape of several thousands of UK children is deemed a "boredom / annoyance" by our political class.
Meanwhile, we're spending millions on DEI programs, hunting for the institutional racism boogeyman. What a country. What a time to be alive. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 15:23 - Jun 13 with 1184 views | Watford_Ranger |
| General Election Thread on 15:05 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
Right. And what is your solution? How do we stop young men from committing suicide? I just don't think that throwing another several million per week at mental health trusts is going to do much. They already offer free talking therapy in any language the user needs. And CBT training, again translated into any language you need at enormous taxpayer expense. |
Well it logically would actually. Just about anything that improves physical health or financial wellbeing would have a small incremental impact. It’s never going to be zero but the current approach of just massive under-funding it isn’t doing a lot of good.
But that’s one tiny part of the topic of life expectancy declining. Quality medical access at speed is in decline. People aren’t being seen for treatable diseases quickly enough for them to be treatable. They’re missing their own targets on cancers by a mile. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 15:26 - Jun 13 with 2155 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 15:19 - Jun 13 by Stainrod |
Sunak is the prime minister and he campaigned for Brexit. |
I had not heard of Rishi Sunak until he became chancellor under Boris, so perhaps I'm not the extreme Brexiteer that you envisage. Just a normal bloke who thought this country was a better place before we needed the concrete barriers of peace in our town centers. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 15:29 - Jun 13 with 2143 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 15:20 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
So fitting that the institutionalized rape of several thousands of UK children is deemed a "boredom / annoyance" by our political class.
Meanwhile, we're spending millions on DEI programs, hunting for the institutional racism boogeyman. What a country. What a time to be alive. |
There are no political class here, just 5,000 QPR fans. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 15:32 - Jun 13 with 2104 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 15:23 - Jun 13 by Watford_Ranger |
Well it logically would actually. Just about anything that improves physical health or financial wellbeing would have a small incremental impact. It’s never going to be zero but the current approach of just massive under-funding it isn’t doing a lot of good.
But that’s one tiny part of the topic of life expectancy declining. Quality medical access at speed is in decline. People aren’t being seen for treatable diseases quickly enough for them to be treatable. They’re missing their own targets on cancers by a mile. |
Well, logically it wouldn't, given that money does not fill vacant positions with qualified staff. People in secure mental health units still commit suicide. Claiming that NHS Mental health funding is in any way linked to Male suicide rates is kind of absurd. But here you are.
And yeah I agree that it's a tiny part and that more could be done to help with male suicide, starting with not importing an endless stream of migrants for them to compete with economically. But that is ideologically something that I suspect you cannot tolerate. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 15:35 - Jun 13 with 2095 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 15:29 - Jun 13 by BazzaInTheLoft |
There are no political class here, just 5,000 QPR fans. |
Hahahahaha Yeah right. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| General Election Thread on 15:41 - Jun 13 with 2074 views | Watford_Ranger |
| General Election Thread on 15:32 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
Well, logically it wouldn't, given that money does not fill vacant positions with qualified staff. People in secure mental health units still commit suicide. Claiming that NHS Mental health funding is in any way linked to Male suicide rates is kind of absurd. But here you are.
And yeah I agree that it's a tiny part and that more could be done to help with male suicide, starting with not importing an endless stream of migrants for them to compete with economically. But that is ideologically something that I suspect you cannot tolerate. |
If you have to bring literally everything back to immigration then I doubt I’m going to convince you of anything. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 15:44 - Jun 13 with 2046 views | SheffieldHoop |
| General Election Thread on 15:41 - Jun 13 by Watford_Ranger |
If you have to bring literally everything back to immigration then I doubt I’m going to convince you of anything. |
The UK public has been telling the political class for basically 2 decades now that Immigration is too high. It's not just me, fella. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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