| Style of play - Players interaction 10:18 - Feb 12 with 13585 views | ClitheroeDale |
I would be interested to know if at any time, some of the players have said to McNulty they need to change the system and try something a little different. I would have taken the current points we have at the start of the season, but it just seems such a shame that we cant go to a plan B. I think when all fully fit, we have a decent side but this persistence to keep playing this style of play is crazy.
Jim seems an intelligent bloke, he must be able to see, that sometimes a different approach is needed. |  | | |  |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 18:58 - Feb 13 with 3277 views | Edindale |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 12:57 - Feb 13 by RAFCBLUE |
I think it is good that McNulty has certainty for next season. Unless he went to another job, ala BBM, then he will get next season which will be a test of his skills and apply what he has learned in this campaign.
There's a trend of EFL clubs taking National League managers who do well - Pete Wilder (Halifax to Barrow), Mike Williamson (Gateshead to MK Dons) and Stuart Maynard (Wealdstone to Notts County).
All three of them had a number of years at this level before they got it right and none of them won promotion to the EFL to get their next job. I'd say Wealdstone are financially the weakest of the three but Halifax and Gateshead have big similarities to us.
Aside from Chesterfield, the standard is a similar one across the league and one the can be adapted to. McNulty has only managed for 9 months and it shows as it did for Keith Hill when he first got the job. |
Agreed but we will need to see improvement in style and results particularly at home.
Nonetheless he will need to do it his way given our circumstances and that this will be a learning curve for him.
Regarding financial strength do you (or anyone) have details of relative budgets in this league? Are Halifax and Gateshead richer than us or just better managed in terms of resources?
Regarding the standard of the league, the top half is broadly equivalent to EFL2 and may be weaker next year with Chesterfield promoted. On the downside we will be losing some experienced players in the summer and will need to look to recruit from a more diverse pool of talent. |  | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 19:53 - Feb 13 with 3136 views | EllDale |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 18:58 - Feb 13 by Edindale |
Agreed but we will need to see improvement in style and results particularly at home.
Nonetheless he will need to do it his way given our circumstances and that this will be a learning curve for him.
Regarding financial strength do you (or anyone) have details of relative budgets in this league? Are Halifax and Gateshead richer than us or just better managed in terms of resources?
Regarding the standard of the league, the top half is broadly equivalent to EFL2 and may be weaker next year with Chesterfield promoted. On the downside we will be losing some experienced players in the summer and will need to look to recruit from a more diverse pool of talent. |
I’m not sure about other clubs but Halifax fans are always complaining that their club is run on a shoestring. Didn’t Aussieshaymen say on here before Christmas that they only had around three permanent admin staff and that’s why admission was cash only?
I know that they don’t have a club shop as such, just online sales and a pop up version on matchdays. | | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 20:33 - Feb 13 with 3100 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 19:53 - Feb 13 by EllDale |
I’m not sure about other clubs but Halifax fans are always complaining that their club is run on a shoestring. Didn’t Aussieshaymen say on here before Christmas that they only had around three permanent admin staff and that’s why admission was cash only?
I know that they don’t have a club shop as such, just online sales and a pop up version on matchdays. |
Assuming these links and the date on them are both accurate and up-to-date:
Halifax:
https://fchalifaxtown.com/club/whos-who/
Rochdale:
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/club/whos-who/
Comparing the two:
Halifax - 36 names vs Rochdale 56 names
"Boards/VPs" - Halifax 7 vs Rochdale 12
"First team" - Halifax 6 vs Rochdale 10
"Off field/Media/Programme" - Halifax 12 vs Rochdale 17
"Academy / U19's" - Halifax 9 vs Rochdale 8
"Ground / Stadium" - Halifax 2 vs Rochdale 9
Assuming everyone is listed, which they may not be, there is probably some differences in mapping.
Halifax are also a longstanding non-league club vs us who are adjusting to life outside the EFL so the levels of resources may differ for that reason.
For the last published set of accounts (June 2022):
Halifax - profit of £52,020
Rochdale - loss of £467,356
I'd agree that it looks like Halifax are run on a shoestring! |  |
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 20:42 - Feb 13 with 3069 views | EllDale |
Ground/stadium may be misleading as groundsmen are probably council employees. | | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 10:09 - Feb 14 with 2819 views | wheniwasyourage |
I feel that the club isn't adequately considering the fans' concerns. While I acknowledge that my understanding of football tactics doesn't compare to Jim's and I remain hopeful that his strategy will prove successful.
However, I recall a moment of clarity four years ago, realizing that emulating Barcelona's play style might not be viable in Division 1, and the same principle applies to trying to play like City in the National League. | | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 13:46 - Feb 14 with 2566 views | James1980 |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 10:09 - Feb 14 by wheniwasyourage |
I feel that the club isn't adequately considering the fans' concerns. While I acknowledge that my understanding of football tactics doesn't compare to Jim's and I remain hopeful that his strategy will prove successful.
However, I recall a moment of clarity four years ago, realizing that emulating Barcelona's play style might not be viable in Division 1, and the same principle applies to trying to play like City in the National League. |
Be interesting to know how our budget compares to Notts County's when they were NL. Can't recall which poster it was but a fan of there's posted on here about Notts playing possession based and the fans buying into it. [Post edited 15 Feb 7:05]
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 15:17 - Feb 14 with 2463 views | nordenblue |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 13:46 - Feb 14 by James1980 |
Be interesting to know how our budget compares to Notts County's when they were NL. Can't recall which poster it was but a fan of there's posted on here about Notts playing possession based and the fans buying into it. [Post edited 15 Feb 7:05]
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Fans will buy into most things, including "possession based football" that result in you banging in 100+ goals and totalling 100+ points over a season, they clearly had the players and manager to pull it off... we're not in any danger of troubling either of them stats | | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 15:54 - Feb 14 with 2407 views | James1980 |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 15:17 - Feb 14 by nordenblue |
Fans will buy into most things, including "possession based football" that result in you banging in 100+ goals and totalling 100+ points over a season, they clearly had the players and manager to pull it off... we're not in any danger of troubling either of them stats |
Hence my positing the question regarding the difference in playing budgets between us and them. | |
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 16:09 - Feb 14 with 2394 views | nordenblue |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 15:54 - Feb 14 by James1980 |
Hence my positing the question regarding the difference in playing budgets between us and them. |
Not sure playing style,formation etc is directly linked to your budget. | | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 16:32 - Feb 14 with 2358 views | James1980 |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 16:09 - Feb 14 by nordenblue |
Not sure playing style,formation etc is directly linked to your budget. |
The point I'm not making very well is it's daft to say you can't play possession based football in NL because there are teams that have proved it can be very effective. | |
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 16:43 - Feb 14 with 2336 views | Rodingdale |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 16:32 - Feb 14 by James1980 |
The point I'm not making very well is it's daft to say you can't play possession based football in NL because there are teams that have proved it can be very effective. |
Indeed it can James - with fast temp passing, lots of running in midfield and clinical finishing up front. However the low tempo walking football favoured by McNulty is ineffective and frustrating / boring to watch. | | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 16:51 - Feb 14 with 2325 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 16:32 - Feb 14 by James1980 |
The point I'm not making very well is it's daft to say you can't play possession based football in NL because there are teams that have proved it can be very effective. |
You can't isolate how much of success was/is down to a style of football and how much down to the fact alongside Wrexham they were vastly outspending the National League.
Their last three years results. Year ended:
June 2021: Loss of £2.2m (finished 5th)
June 2022: Loss of £1.7m (finished 5th)
June 2023: Loss of £2.8m (finished 2nd)
So £6.7m to build a League 2 challenging team (currently 7th) and finishing 2nd in the National League.
The latest accounts say they are only a going concern as two of their directors have confirmed they will provide financial support so that Notts County can meet their liabilities as they fall due.
I don't think we are comparable as we don't have anywhere near that financial firepower particularly when they were paying £50,000 transfer fees for non-league players plus giving out three year deals. | |
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 17:17 - Feb 14 with 2290 views | watford_dale |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 16:09 - Feb 14 by nordenblue |
Not sure playing style,formation etc is directly linked to your budget. |
If it was linked then boy are we in for a surprise next season with declining solidarity/parachute payments.
He will make walking football look like powerball. | | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 22:45 - Feb 14 with 2080 views | nordenblue |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 16:32 - Feb 14 by James1980 |
The point I'm not making very well is it's daft to say you can't play possession based football in NL because there are teams that have proved it can be very effective. |
Nobody is suggesting it's "daft to say you can't play possession based football in NL" I'm suggesting it's the height of stupidity to persist with something that's clearly not working using available players, with a style of play that's easier to predict than day turning to night.
We're trying to reinvent the wheel while overcomplicating a pretty simple game | | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 09:02 - Feb 15 with 1953 views | surb_dale |
I think the main frustration people have is the very slow tempo of build up akin to a Serie A game and often choosing not to cross and instead recycle the ball back to retain possession. I'm not sure if this is partly to maintain energy reserves due to the small squad and lack of options off the bench. Watching from the sidelines it certainly doesnt look all that tiring to play in this side. Often ive seen us work the ball through a side that presses but then dont go for the jugular and allow the opposition to get back behind the ball.
Now that we have most players back i'd like to think McNulty would encourage a higher tempo knowing he can swap in some of the front players to inject more energy. I hope someone can quiz McNulty at the forum about the tempo specifically.
Gateshead play a similar possession-based style but are much more incisive with their passing and play at a higher tempo.
The tactics themselves are quite brave and attacking with us pushing the full backs on and playing with wingers on both sides but opposition managers have worked us out and know that we will keep playing the same way so just sit in and wait for us to lose the ball and hit on the break. | | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 10:16 - Feb 15 with 1872 views | dawlishdale |
Pretty much agree with this. We can debate all we like if we only have one style of play or several, but the bottom line is it's not entertaining for the main part, and it will be difficult to attract new fans whilst employing these tactics; let alone keeping hold of current supporters especially if prices rise as is obviously needed. | | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 12:55 - Feb 15 with 1692 views | realisticdale33 |
On the subject of budgets I think we are worlds apart from some teams and if I’m being honest Jim is doing very well for the resources he has. The money some teams have spent is ridiculous.some players in this league are earning league 1 wages. I would have thought chesterfield had the biggest wage bill but in an interview with Paul cook he said you would be surprised how much they have actually spent. He then took digs at Oldham and how much they have spent.I think if Jim had the money chesterfield,York and Oldham had we would be top 3 | | | |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 15:10 - Feb 15 with 1518 views | Dalenet |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 12:55 - Feb 15 by realisticdale33 |
On the subject of budgets I think we are worlds apart from some teams and if I’m being honest Jim is doing very well for the resources he has. The money some teams have spent is ridiculous.some players in this league are earning league 1 wages. I would have thought chesterfield had the biggest wage bill but in an interview with Paul cook he said you would be surprised how much they have actually spent. He then took digs at Oldham and how much they have spent.I think if Jim had the money chesterfield,York and Oldham had we would be top 3 |
In another thread I posted how much Chesterfield were spending in general and as they have to declare all staff earning more than £60k pa (They are a Community Trust) you can see that they had 6 players earning between £60k and £90k. That is not League One wages. We were spending £3m pa on players wages in League One. Chesterfield spent a lot less than that.
When I look at how many sides are part time, how many have signficantly lower revenue than we do, and how many players with League experience we have, I doubt we are bottom half of the league for wages. Yes compared to previous seasons we have sslashed budgets, but £1m a year is still a decent amount. We are 6th highest for attendances and probably 6th or 7th for revenue. So unless there are owners in this league pumping £1m plus into their small club, most will be spending less than £1m on players wages. Remember, the costs of our coaching staff and academy costs are not part of our declared £1m.
There is a recent article on the football website 90 minutes where they say that the average wage for a National League player is between £1000 and £1500 per week, although last season Wrexham were paying a lot more.
Anyhow, as a non league club we have to live within the budget we have and compete as best we can. I am not buying into the "oh woe is me" message at all. [Post edited 15 Feb 15:31]
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 16:31 - Feb 15 with 1407 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 15:10 - Feb 15 by Dalenet |
In another thread I posted how much Chesterfield were spending in general and as they have to declare all staff earning more than £60k pa (They are a Community Trust) you can see that they had 6 players earning between £60k and £90k. That is not League One wages. We were spending £3m pa on players wages in League One. Chesterfield spent a lot less than that.
When I look at how many sides are part time, how many have signficantly lower revenue than we do, and how many players with League experience we have, I doubt we are bottom half of the league for wages. Yes compared to previous seasons we have sslashed budgets, but £1m a year is still a decent amount. We are 6th highest for attendances and probably 6th or 7th for revenue. So unless there are owners in this league pumping £1m plus into their small club, most will be spending less than £1m on players wages. Remember, the costs of our coaching staff and academy costs are not part of our declared £1m.
There is a recent article on the football website 90 minutes where they say that the average wage for a National League player is between £1000 and £1500 per week, although last season Wrexham were paying a lot more.
Anyhow, as a non league club we have to live within the budget we have and compete as best we can. I am not buying into the "oh woe is me" message at all. [Post edited 15 Feb 15:31]
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When you consider we have the following players out of contract this summer:
Ian Henderson
Devante Rodney
Max Taylor
Ethan Ebanks-Landell
Cameron John
Jimmy Keohane
Tyrese Sinclair
Adam Clayton
Kyron Gordon
Brad Kelly
Michael Afuye
I'd imagine maybe all but three of those are on upwards of £1000 a week so that's a big chunk of money saved when they all get released. Obviously they need replacing but you'd need to replace them cheaply, if at all, if our financial situation is as bad as made out. |  |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 17:21 - Feb 15 with 1339 views | 442Dale |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 15:10 - Feb 15 by Dalenet |
In another thread I posted how much Chesterfield were spending in general and as they have to declare all staff earning more than £60k pa (They are a Community Trust) you can see that they had 6 players earning between £60k and £90k. That is not League One wages. We were spending £3m pa on players wages in League One. Chesterfield spent a lot less than that.
When I look at how many sides are part time, how many have signficantly lower revenue than we do, and how many players with League experience we have, I doubt we are bottom half of the league for wages. Yes compared to previous seasons we have sslashed budgets, but £1m a year is still a decent amount. We are 6th highest for attendances and probably 6th or 7th for revenue. So unless there are owners in this league pumping £1m plus into their small club, most will be spending less than £1m on players wages. Remember, the costs of our coaching staff and academy costs are not part of our declared £1m.
There is a recent article on the football website 90 minutes where they say that the average wage for a National League player is between £1000 and £1500 per week, although last season Wrexham were paying a lot more.
Anyhow, as a non league club we have to live within the budget we have and compete as best we can. I am not buying into the "oh woe is me" message at all. [Post edited 15 Feb 15:31]
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As Dale fans the “woe is me”, excuses and diverting blame is simply not who we are.
It’s also transparent. Worth reading some pages on that humongous Bury thread. Funny how quickly some forget. |  |
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 18:04 - Feb 15 with 1281 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 15:10 - Feb 15 by Dalenet |
In another thread I posted how much Chesterfield were spending in general and as they have to declare all staff earning more than £60k pa (They are a Community Trust) you can see that they had 6 players earning between £60k and £90k. That is not League One wages. We were spending £3m pa on players wages in League One. Chesterfield spent a lot less than that.
When I look at how many sides are part time, how many have signficantly lower revenue than we do, and how many players with League experience we have, I doubt we are bottom half of the league for wages. Yes compared to previous seasons we have sslashed budgets, but £1m a year is still a decent amount. We are 6th highest for attendances and probably 6th or 7th for revenue. So unless there are owners in this league pumping £1m plus into their small club, most will be spending less than £1m on players wages. Remember, the costs of our coaching staff and academy costs are not part of our declared £1m.
There is a recent article on the football website 90 minutes where they say that the average wage for a National League player is between £1000 and £1500 per week, although last season Wrexham were paying a lot more.
Anyhow, as a non league club we have to live within the budget we have and compete as best we can. I am not buying into the "oh woe is me" message at all. [Post edited 15 Feb 15:31]
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Some good points in there but the crux we haven't addressed is that we are living outside of our relative means.
Published losses:
2018: Loss of £0.3m
2019: Loss of £1.2m
2020: Profit of £1.3m
2021: Loss of £1.2m
2022: Loss of £0.5m
I'll assume that 2023 will be a loss and 2024 will be a loss.
Assuming I am right on 2023 and 2024 that will be £2.9m loss plus 2023 and 2024 losses.
I'd go for it being cumulatively at least £4.0m if 2023 and 2024 combined is another £1.1m loss.
We used to laugh at bury for spending beyond their means but we are doing so here.
We've spent cumulatively about £4.0m more than we've earned over 7 years; about 10 grand a week.
The first step has to be to have a budget that doesn't make a loss; be that either reducing the wage bill and recruiting a lower wage cost set of players or increasing ticket prices or getting more people to come.
Otherwise you are just asking individual directors (historic and present) to bail out a loss making business and that is not a sustainable practice.
Some of the other club mentioned have owners who are offsetting football losses for tax against their other businesses.
There are not many who run at a surplus of revenue over costs. | |
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 18:10 - Feb 15 with 1263 views | D_Alien |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 18:04 - Feb 15 by RAFCBLUE |
Some good points in there but the crux we haven't addressed is that we are living outside of our relative means.
Published losses:
2018: Loss of £0.3m
2019: Loss of £1.2m
2020: Profit of £1.3m
2021: Loss of £1.2m
2022: Loss of £0.5m
I'll assume that 2023 will be a loss and 2024 will be a loss.
Assuming I am right on 2023 and 2024 that will be £2.9m loss plus 2023 and 2024 losses.
I'd go for it being cumulatively at least £4.0m if 2023 and 2024 combined is another £1.1m loss.
We used to laugh at bury for spending beyond their means but we are doing so here.
We've spent cumulatively about £4.0m more than we've earned over 7 years; about 10 grand a week.
The first step has to be to have a budget that doesn't make a loss; be that either reducing the wage bill and recruiting a lower wage cost set of players or increasing ticket prices or getting more people to come.
Otherwise you are just asking individual directors (historic and present) to bail out a loss making business and that is not a sustainable practice.
Some of the other club mentioned have owners who are offsetting football losses for tax against their other businesses.
There are not many who run at a surplus of revenue over costs. |
We didn't used to laugh at bury for spending beyond their means, we laughed at bury for being taken in by shysters who took them for a ride. "Enjoy the ride"
We fought off shysters (twice, it seems) and yet failed to take sufficient steps to cut our cloth according to our means, employing several commercial staff (for instance) who achieved very little and with very little oversight
Those who've been active within the club during this period should understand that... |  |
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 18:12 - Feb 15 with 1259 views | 442Dale |
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2022/april/chairmanmessageseasoncards_22-23/
“ At April 2022, the club has a stable financial platform and cash reserves to be well positioned for next season. We have returned during 2021/22 to being a properly and prudently run football club”
“ We started shaping our squad for next season in January 2022 with the purchases of Tavhon Campbell, James Ball and Luke Charman and will continue to support Robbie Stockdale as far as possible as he builds his squad for next season this summer. The Board is planning for a significantly increased playing budget for next season.” | |
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 18:20 - Feb 15 with 1240 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 18:10 - Feb 15 by D_Alien |
We didn't used to laugh at bury for spending beyond their means, we laughed at bury for being taken in by shysters who took them for a ride. "Enjoy the ride"
We fought off shysters (twice, it seems) and yet failed to take sufficient steps to cut our cloth according to our means, employing several commercial staff (for instance) who achieved very little and with very little oversight
Those who've been active within the club during this period should understand that... |
I'm sure they do DA, after all they are the ones now keeping the club afloat and running with loans aren't they?
At least we know the club have your support for cutting the cloth accordingly for 2025 in the face of potentially no parachute payment and reduced Academy funding.
The commercial staff you refer to appear to all be working now at other clubs either in the National League or EFL. Perhaps them working for our competitors will benefit the club if they achieved as little as you say they did...... [Post edited 15 Feb 18:24]
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| Style of play - Players interaction on 18:33 - Feb 15 with 1212 views | D_Alien |
| Style of play - Players interaction on 18:20 - Feb 15 by RAFCBLUE |
I'm sure they do DA, after all they are the ones now keeping the club afloat and running with loans aren't they?
At least we know the club have your support for cutting the cloth accordingly for 2025 in the face of potentially no parachute payment and reduced Academy funding.
The commercial staff you refer to appear to all be working now at other clubs either in the National League or EFL. Perhaps them working for our competitors will benefit the club if they achieved as little as you say they did...... [Post edited 15 Feb 18:24]
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I expect they're happy to have found employment elsewhere
What criteria were used to employ them at Dale in the first place? Did they have targets to achieve? There were many posts on here a year or so ago about this issue, and furthermore... if they were earning more for the club than it took to employ them, why were they let go? | |
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