| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? 11:06 - Sep 30 with 35038 views | saxbend |
I have some money sitting in a savings account that does very little except act as a place for my other savings account to empty into annually. I would like to invest it into something a bit more interesting and I am very tempted to believe that the Bond for the new training ground could be it.
So for those of you who've done this sort of thing before (or do it often), what do you think? |  | | |  |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:20 - Sep 30 with 3568 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 11:47 - Sep 30 by saxbend |
Yes. I'm looking at that 3% and thinking cheap season ticket (or some free away tickets) for the next five years. But even the 5% annual interest on the £2m they say they're setting as their minimum investment threshold to get the bonds going could be quite the millstone. |
In terms of the investment decision I wouldn't get too fixated by the 3% club credit. First of all, you'll have to spend more money to receive the credit. Next, it can be offset by price increases, in particular to season tickets. The draw is the possibility of a 25% promotion bonus and the satisfaction gained from helping your club progress. If the last point means nothing to you then there are other products that you can invest in that are more liquid and offer comparable rates of interest. [Post edited 30 Sep 2021 15:36]
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| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:25 - Sep 30 with 3551 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 13:19 - Sep 30 by swisscottage |
Not to mention that you can do this in an ISA ( if you've not already put money into another ISA in the tax year) meaning you don't have to pay tax on the interest.
I'm not sure if I could invest in this on a current ISA though. Does anyone know who understand this ? |
Yep this is another interesting question. If I decide to invest via an ISA, can it be through an ISA product of my choosing or do I have to go with the Tifosy product? | | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:27 - Sep 30 with 3544 views | PinnerPaul |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:20 - Sep 30 by Benny_the_Ball |
In terms of the investment decision I wouldn't get too fixated by the 3% club credit. First of all, you'll have to spend more money to receive the credit. Next, it can be offset by price increases, in particular to season tickets. The draw is the possibility of a 25% promotion bonus and the satisfaction gained from helping your club progress. If the last point means nothing to you then there are other products that you can invest in that are more liquid and offer comparable rates of interest. [Post edited 30 Sep 2021 15:36]
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On the 3%, if you're on here, I'm guessing you would have been spending that money with the club in the first place, so the 3% IS still an additional benefit, I would say.
BTW - What a sensible bunch/discussion we are/this is! |  | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:33 - Sep 30 with 3520 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:02 - Sep 30 by GloryHunter |
Unless you're thinking of putting in £20,000 or more, the ISA option is meaningless. Everyone has an annual tax allowance of £1,000 on savings interest anyway. |
I would say that the ISA option is more meaningful to those with £20k or less to invest as the maximum ISA allowance for the current tax year is £20k. | | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:46 - Sep 30 with 3492 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:27 - Sep 30 by PinnerPaul |
On the 3%, if you're on here, I'm guessing you would have been spending that money with the club in the first place, so the 3% IS still an additional benefit, I would say.
BTW - What a sensible bunch/discussion we are/this is! |
I agree that it is an additional benefit if you spend money on the club anyway. However, it would not be a defining factor in any investment decision for me as the club can offset the cost of this credit by raising prices. The bigger draw for me is the possibility of a 25% bonus should the club achieve promotion within the next 5 years. Granted, it isn't guaranteed but with the team improving on the pitch it's a possibility. | | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:49 - Sep 30 with 3491 views | saxbend |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 12:08 - Sep 30 by HanwellHoopster |
I'm very tempted by this, but the one red flag I have, and feel I should share with others, is that the investment will be very illiquid. I can't see a buoyant market out there for QPR bonds should you need to sell yours. So if you're going to do this, as I probably will, only invest money you're certain you won't need in the next five years. That does rather put a cap on how much I'm willing to stick in. |
Yes, that's how I feel about investments in general anyway. But it's also a positive for me, as I really like the idea of having this money locked away for five years so I'm not tempted to spend it on something prematurely, as it's supposed to be sayings to go on a big purchase in the future, and at my current rate of saving that's more than five years away. So if I can have it protected from my medium term whims, and bring me back more interest than my bank is ever going to give me then I'm absolutely on board. It's also not the entirety of my savings either. I have a help to buy ISA. This is just the money that I save in excess or what I'm allowed to pay into that ISA each month. | | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:50 - Sep 30 with 3490 views | W12Mikey |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:10 - Sep 30 by PinnerPaul |
Thanks, all good advice.
One minor point, they do say that the bonds will be able to be traded on something called the Tifosy Exchange.
Obviously, like shares, or anything really, you can only sell if there is a buyer! |
Thanks Pinner. I hadn't spotted the point about the Tifosy Exchange. I guess that would become interesting if it looked likely we would get promoted - there might then be buying interest from non-QPR fans effectively betting on promotion | | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:52 - Sep 30 with 3481 views | PinnerPaul |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:50 - Sep 30 by W12Mikey |
Thanks Pinner. I hadn't spotted the point about the Tifosy Exchange. I guess that would become interesting if it looked likely we would get promoted - there might then be buying interest from non-QPR fans effectively betting on promotion |
From experience would you say that would be the way to get your investment returned at the end of the 5 years, or, all being well etc, would that return be 'automatic' - ie no need to sell the bond to someone else to get your investment back?
Thanks | | | |
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| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:55 - Sep 30 with 3467 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:50 - Sep 30 by W12Mikey |
Thanks Pinner. I hadn't spotted the point about the Tifosy Exchange. I guess that would become interesting if it looked likely we would get promoted - there might then be buying interest from non-QPR fans effectively betting on promotion |
Good point.
With respect to leveraging an ISA, am I free to select my own or can Tifosy limit me to their preferred product? | | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:59 - Sep 30 with 3458 views | saxbend |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:20 - Sep 30 by Benny_the_Ball |
In terms of the investment decision I wouldn't get too fixated by the 3% club credit. First of all, you'll have to spend more money to receive the credit. Next, it can be offset by price increases, in particular to season tickets. The draw is the possibility of a 25% promotion bonus and the satisfaction gained from helping your club progress. If the last point means nothing to you then there are other products that you can invest in that are more liquid and offer comparable rates of interest. [Post edited 30 Sep 2021 15:36]
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But unless your season ticket is especially cheap or you're investing about £20 000 or more, that 3% will go against your season ticket each year, with none of it wasted. Of course if you invest £100k it's a different story. | | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 16:03 - Sep 30 with 3442 views | W12Mikey |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:52 - Sep 30 by PinnerPaul |
From experience would you say that would be the way to get your investment returned at the end of the 5 years, or, all being well etc, would that return be 'automatic' - ie no need to sell the bond to someone else to get your investment back?
Thanks |
You would expect to get the investment repaid by the issuer, i.e. the club, at the end of the 5 years.
Selling it on the Tifosy exchange would depend on there being a willing buyer at the time you want to sell, at a price acceptable to you, but is only realistic when the bond still has some time to run (no one wants to buy a bond and then have it repaid by the borrower a week later unless they buy it at a discount to face value).
Where it would get interesting is if, say, QPR got to the play-offs. Win, and the 25% bonus kicks in so the bond is worth more. So the market price would reflect investors' view of the probability of promotion. Also of course promotion should make the credit risk less, again improving the value of the bond. But because the issue size is so small I don't see there being a lot of trading. | | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 16:07 - Sep 30 with 3435 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 15:59 - Sep 30 by saxbend |
But unless your season ticket is especially cheap or you're investing about £20 000 or more, that 3% will go against your season ticket each year, with none of it wasted. Of course if you invest £100k it's a different story. |
Absolutely. If you're only investing £500 and the investment goes belly up then you can at least console yourself that you saved some money on season tickets and merchandise.
As I stated above, for me this is an additional benefit but not a DEFINING factor. It may well be an important consideration for you, which is fine.
This whole thread is a mature, high-level discussion; at no point should any of the views be misconstrued as personal advice. Hopefully as details are released there will be enough food for thought on here to enable all of us to make an informed decision. [Post edited 30 Sep 2021 16:11]
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| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 16:17 - Sep 30 with 3408 views | PinnerPaul |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 16:03 - Sep 30 by W12Mikey |
You would expect to get the investment repaid by the issuer, i.e. the club, at the end of the 5 years.
Selling it on the Tifosy exchange would depend on there being a willing buyer at the time you want to sell, at a price acceptable to you, but is only realistic when the bond still has some time to run (no one wants to buy a bond and then have it repaid by the borrower a week later unless they buy it at a discount to face value).
Where it would get interesting is if, say, QPR got to the play-offs. Win, and the 25% bonus kicks in so the bond is worth more. So the market price would reflect investors' view of the probability of promotion. Also of course promotion should make the credit risk less, again improving the value of the bond. But because the issue size is so small I don't see there being a lot of trading. |
Thanks again, very useful. | | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 17:02 - Sep 30 with 3320 views | PlanetHonneywood |
Football as an investment sector is too big a gamble in my book. It is such a ridiculous, fickle and at times, poorly run business, that is best summed up by an old footballing investment saying: How do you make a million out of football? By spending ten million!
Some very solid observations above. One thing mentioned and which I would be very mindful of: inflation.
All the portents suggest it will rise and frankly, the underlying issues behind 2008 were not addressed before governments started writing cheques willy-nilly to fund COVID. Those chickens will come home to roost soon, and they will want feedin'.
Like Millwall away, tread carefully! |  |
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| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 18:12 - Sep 30 with 3222 views | Boston |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 17:02 - Sep 30 by PlanetHonneywood |
Football as an investment sector is too big a gamble in my book. It is such a ridiculous, fickle and at times, poorly run business, that is best summed up by an old footballing investment saying: How do you make a million out of football? By spending ten million!
Some very solid observations above. One thing mentioned and which I would be very mindful of: inflation.
All the portents suggest it will rise and frankly, the underlying issues behind 2008 were not addressed before governments started writing cheques willy-nilly to fund COVID. Those chickens will come home to roost soon, and they will want feedin'.
Like Millwall away, tread carefully! |
Yeah, I don’t invest in football, I throw money away at it. | |
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| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 18:41 - Sep 30 with 3179 views | DavieQPR |
Inflation will hit most forms of savings though and more so if you just have money sitting in a Current Account. The way I look at it is that if you invest £1k in this slight gamble or go for a safe option where your money is safe the difference is only about £30/35 per annum. Ignoring the Club discount the main thing is the Promotion gamble. |  | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 19:17 - Sep 30 with 3127 views | GloryHunter |
It looks like we are set for a big inflation, so the Monetary Policy Committee will eventually be forced to stop sitting on their hands, and raise interest rates. As W12Mikey says in his excellent analysis, in a few years time that 5% interest might not look so generous, compared with savings account rates. If your heart wants to have an investment in the club, then that's great, and the 25% promotion bonus would be a nice treat. I would suggest an investment of £2,000 might be worth the risk, if you can afford it, and the £500 promotion bonus would pay for one year's ST. Anything bigger than that I'd have reservations about. |  | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 19:28 - Sep 30 with 3110 views | stevec |
Never mix business with pleasure.
The figures are enticing without doubt, especially the promotion bonus, but you’d at least want the investment secured against the training ground which I suspect will not be the case.
It looks like the sort of investment you might spend the next five years sweating on whether you’ll see a penny of it back. If you can live with that fair enough, but life’s too short.
I’ve had business dealings with the club albeit over 25 years ago and it wasn’t a pleasant experience. Got out without getting my fingers burned and enough of a lesson to dodge the share issue, thank god.
Whatever you do, do the due diligence. |  | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 20:03 - Sep 30 with 3054 views | QPR_Jim |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 18:41 - Sep 30 by DavieQPR |
Inflation will hit most forms of savings though and more so if you just have money sitting in a Current Account. The way I look at it is that if you invest £1k in this slight gamble or go for a safe option where your money is safe the difference is only about £30/35 per annum. Ignoring the Club discount the main thing is the Promotion gamble. |
Yeah I can see inflation being a big risk with everything going off at the moment. I think the gamble on promotion is the main draw and if you're inclined to think we will get promoted or would put a bet on us getting promoted anyway, then this might give a better pay out than a bookies and your stake back if you lose. Assuming they can pay it back, but I guess they've set that rate as it's better than the rate they can borrow at through business loans etc. |  | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 20:23 - Sep 30 with 3025 views | queensparker |
My only previous financial dealings with the club was at a player’s dinner a while back when I outbid Stevie Lomas for a set of excellent golf clubs that I’m still using to this day.
The club never took the money out of my account even when out of guilt I sent them a reminder.
On that basis I’m oot. |  | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 05:28 - Oct 1 with 2777 views | nadera78 |
I'm curious as to the 3% club credit - will you be able to use it to buy a season ticket outright, or would there be some limits on the amount that can be redeemed in any one transaction? As in, you can use it to cover half the cost of a season ticket but you have to pay the remainder? | | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 07:11 - Oct 1 with 2722 views | 1JD |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 19:17 - Sep 30 by GloryHunter |
It looks like we are set for a big inflation, so the Monetary Policy Committee will eventually be forced to stop sitting on their hands, and raise interest rates. As W12Mikey says in his excellent analysis, in a few years time that 5% interest might not look so generous, compared with savings account rates. If your heart wants to have an investment in the club, then that's great, and the 25% promotion bonus would be a nice treat. I would suggest an investment of £2,000 might be worth the risk, if you can afford it, and the £500 promotion bonus would pay for one year's ST. Anything bigger than that I'd have reservations about. |
“In a few years time that 5% interest might not look so generous, compared with savings account rates”. On the contrary, I would say this is not great analysis and represents a negative and risk averse view.
Simply because you are losing out on the AVAILABLE 5% interest year on year, NOT CURRENTLY available with savings rates.
Even if it interest rates rises, say at the midway point (2.5 years from now) you’d still be up on any interest banked between now and then. It’s a no brainer. | | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 08:17 - Oct 1 with 2666 views | londonscottish |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 12:00 - Sep 30 by Northernr |
Say what you like about our owners but to this point they've been more than 'good for it'.
They've picked up the bill for their mistakes, they're paying that FFP fine themselves, the fact they're funding a new training ground in a time of global pandemic and uncertainty doesn't suggest they're struggling, nor going to bail any time soon. |
I'm not dissing the owners at all and totally agree that they've taken the fine on their chin, have been stumping up for the operational losses every single month and are now backing the training ground. For which I am extremely grateful, especially when you look at see what's happening in other Champ clubs right now and what's happened to other clubs in recent memory. Shudder.......
Going back to the bond, though, it's just a technical thing; knowing the legal entity they choose to use is important as that affects the risk to the capital you put in. As other have said, were the bond secured against the training ground itself that's probably about as solid as you could get. But it probably won't be, therefore it becomes another factor to weigh up in the risk/reward area.
Disclaimer; this is not professional advice, just my thoughts. |  |
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| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 09:12 - Oct 1 with 2593 views | stowmarketrange |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 05:28 - Oct 1 by nadera78 |
I'm curious as to the 3% club credit - will you be able to use it to buy a season ticket outright, or would there be some limits on the amount that can be redeemed in any one transaction? As in, you can use it to cover half the cost of a season ticket but you have to pay the remainder? |
If you invested £20k the 3% works out at £600 a year in club credit,and that’s a lot of training tops if you aren’t allowed to use it to pay for your season ticket.
Bring back the boutique slippers. |  | | |
| QPR Bond - thoughts from those with expertise? on 09:21 - Oct 1 with 2574 views | gazza1 |
It is a very attractive deal indeed but you need to proceed with caution.....8% interest is big and so is the 25% bonus but there are pitfalls in terms of selling the bond - most probably as time moves on it will not be sellable unless you get the 25% bonus, the Club get into financial difficulties for whatever reason (Covid 2) or fail to meet their objectives and go backwards on the field, the owners move on and so on. Well that is my take on the bond anyways......
In saying that, I will probably get involved providing nothing untoward comes up before the offer is on the table. Anybody else?? | | | |
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