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When you look at it in the cold light of day, Brexit doesn't appear to be any more than self-harming. How anyone ever believed it would do us any good was beyond me but then along came the UK v EU vaccine war, which we appear to be winning.
Apart from that though, it is obviously disastrous for the UK and is probably going to impoverish it and worse still, destroy it. What were we thinking?
We just have to keep clinging on to our victory in the vaccine war which, admittedly was an important one but it has been pointed out that even if we'd remained in the EU, we could have placed exactly the same vaccine orders if we'd wanted to.
Ultimately, Brexit was a dream of restoring the British Empire, which was about as likely to happen as the Italian government recreating the Roman Empire by leaving the EU.
[Post edited 16 Mar 2021 21:48]
I was reading tonight about Hartlepool and their major...
"Stuart Drummond (born 29 November 1973) was the first and only directly elected mayor of Hartlepool in North East England. He was first elected in 2002, under the guise of H'Angus the Monkey, the town's football club's mascot, and was re-elected in 2005 and 2009. He was the first elected mayor in Britain to win a third term. He stood down when his term ended in May 2013 after the people of Hartlepool voted to abolish the mayoral system on 15 November 2012."
It struck me really strongly that the anti-establishment theme in British culture runs really deep. Local majors are supposed to be about empowering local people and local democracy. So they vote to elect a footbal mascot three times and then vote to scrap the system competely. Anarchists, essentially.
I think Brexit was just the same. Just a massive two fingers to the EU, the political consensus, metropolitan elites, experts, 'the media' - all of it. And noone really thought it would make things better and noone really gave a f*ck that it might make things worse. Just like electing a monkey to be major.
I think the anti establishment theme is about right. Britain is clearly out of step with Europe. Just look at the political decisions in the EU being made about the AZ vaccine. Reports in the Sun (yeah, I know) that the AZ vaccine has the same level of incidence of blood clots etc as Pfizer, but the Pfizer vaccine has not been mentioned once by any of the "precautionary measure" governments. Both show a lower incidence of these than the general population.
Our own government have been far from fault free in this pandemic, but the one things that stands out for me is the statement, "A government's first responsibility is towards its own citizens." France, Germany, Italy et al are clearly not taking this into consideration by halting use of the AZ vaccine, and ignoring the EMA advice not to slow down. Macron claiming to be "following the science".
Despite the EU bitching about vaccine supply (and still got their heads buried in the sand over a poorly negotiated contract), most of the demuring EU countries have used less than half of the AZ vaccines supplied. Germany has used less than 1.5m of the 3m supplied, that hasn't happened in the past few days.
When I see things like this, I'm actually glad that we are not hitched to the same harness. Expect more Brit bashing in the coming months as the successful vaccination programme here exposes their own hypocrisy and incompetence.
I think the anti establishment theme is about right. Britain is clearly out of step with Europe. Just look at the political decisions in the EU being made about the AZ vaccine. Reports in the Sun (yeah, I know) that the AZ vaccine has the same level of incidence of blood clots etc as Pfizer, but the Pfizer vaccine has not been mentioned once by any of the "precautionary measure" governments. Both show a lower incidence of these than the general population.
Our own government have been far from fault free in this pandemic, but the one things that stands out for me is the statement, "A government's first responsibility is towards its own citizens." France, Germany, Italy et al are clearly not taking this into consideration by halting use of the AZ vaccine, and ignoring the EMA advice not to slow down. Macron claiming to be "following the science".
Despite the EU bitching about vaccine supply (and still got their heads buried in the sand over a poorly negotiated contract), most of the demuring EU countries have used less than half of the AZ vaccines supplied. Germany has used less than 1.5m of the 3m supplied, that hasn't happened in the past few days.
When I see things like this, I'm actually glad that we are not hitched to the same harness. Expect more Brit bashing in the coming months as the successful vaccination programme here exposes their own hypocrisy and incompetence.
While the success of the vaccination programme here has been brilliant and very impressive, imo it's a red herring to think that this somehow proves the sense in Brexit.
The paradox is that being in the EU was never about the EU itself. An organisation like that is bound to operate in a clunky way, and any time we had to deal with the EU, it was always going to be harder to do things by consensus rather than just making our own decisions on things, which is clearly a hassle.
But being in the EU was about avoiding hassle on a more day to day level. Hassle at the borders, hassle in relation to trade, hassle in relation to supply chains, hassle in relation to travel and living or working abroad, driving licences, pets, student exchanges etc etc.
By leaving the EU we have avoided the hassle of having to deal with the EU bureaucracy but imo we have done so by increasing the overall amount of hassle we now face.
I'm not sure it was particularly anarchic. There was more nostalgia to it than anarchy. Most Brexiteers wanted to bring back the England of the 1900s or, at the very least, the 1950s
Unless you live on the Isle of Wight, where almost nothing has changed since then, it's amazing now to recall how insular England was in the 1950s and how little travel or contact with foreigners there was for most people. Holidays were a week spent in the nearest English seaside resort. At my primary school, not only were all of the children white but they were all born in the local area. Foreign goods were rare. There wasn't a Japanese car to be seen on the roads, which had very little traffic on them anyway. Most products had made in England stamped on them. Really, I think that is what many Brexiteers yearned for. Having traditional toffs, like Boris and Rees-Mogg, in charge, is part of that 1950s dream when there was a society where everyone 'knew his place.'
It is hardly surprising, therefore, that the voters most solidly behind Brexit and, in fact, the ones who got it over the line, were those born in the 1950s or earlier still.
While the success of the vaccination programme here has been brilliant and very impressive, imo it's a red herring to think that this somehow proves the sense in Brexit.
The paradox is that being in the EU was never about the EU itself. An organisation like that is bound to operate in a clunky way, and any time we had to deal with the EU, it was always going to be harder to do things by consensus rather than just making our own decisions on things, which is clearly a hassle.
But being in the EU was about avoiding hassle on a more day to day level. Hassle at the borders, hassle in relation to trade, hassle in relation to supply chains, hassle in relation to travel and living or working abroad, driving licences, pets, student exchanges etc etc.
By leaving the EU we have avoided the hassle of having to deal with the EU bureaucracy but imo we have done so by increasing the overall amount of hassle we now face.
I understand your argument, (I voted to remain, knowing the downsides I thought).
The point I am making is not to say that because of our vaccination programme, it is the proof that we made the right choice. My point is that politically, in the EU, you have to go with the consensus view, which in many key areas is not what the majority of the British wanted to do, and it has often been so in the past, hence the various get outs we negotiated (but not in the recent past). As the Italian Medical Director has stressed, these decisions to stop using the AZ vaccine are politically, not medically driven. We are seeing that by voting for Brexit, there is a desire in the EU to punish us (maybe understandably) and their AZ approach is reflective of this, to punish those that are not with you (in this case, the British AZ). Increasingly, they have been moving in this direction regarding anyone who does not support the consensus view as well. In 10 or 20 years time, it will be unacceptable to go against the consensus view, and at that stage, it will be the majority of EU voters that will decide our futures, not the majority of the British.
It has always been the Franco-German alliance that has set the EU direction, and the rest (economic "takers" apart from the UK) have gone along with it. The clunkiness of the consensus approach is being resolved by more and more EU decisions being made by majority vote, and the EU has shown little restraint in taking legal action against member states that have not toed the line with agreed direction. This is the basis of the sovereignty argument which was the only Brexiteer argument that I could agree with.
I have lived and worked in the EU sphere for two fairly long stints and thoroughly enjoyed both. However, I returned to the UK because I wanted my children to grow up as "Brits" not "Europeans". I guess there were plenty who made the opposite choice too, but I acted based on experience, however good it was, as well as a sense of identity of what being British means.
Brexit is a disaster for both EU and UK. I don't go along with the thought that Germany/France make all the decisions in the EU. The EU have got themselves in a bit of a mess over the vaccine true, but who's to say that if we had still been part of EU the whole of Europe would have been a better place. To say we got it right and you got it wrong doesn't help anyone.
Brexit is a disaster for both EU and UK. I don't go along with the thought that Germany/France make all the decisions in the EU. The EU have got themselves in a bit of a mess over the vaccine true, but who's to say that if we had still been part of EU the whole of Europe would have been a better place. To say we got it right and you got it wrong doesn't help anyone.
There is a sort of cold war taking place between England and the EU now, which, as you say, isn't really doing either side any good. Both sides view each other with suspicion and more and more barriers are appearing between us. Even some Europeans have suggested that the questioning of the safety of the Oxford vaccine has political overtones. We've never been so wrapped up in EU red tape as we are now.
I say England, because I'm not sure that you can include the other countries in the UK as being part of it. They very much straddle the fence or are even on the EU's side, and in the long-term may well leave us in order to rejoin the EU.
There is a sort of cold war taking place between England and the EU now, which, as you say, isn't really doing either side any good. Both sides view each other with suspicion and more and more barriers are appearing between us. Even some Europeans have suggested that the questioning of the safety of the Oxford vaccine has political overtones. We've never been so wrapped up in EU red tape as we are now.
I say England, because I'm not sure that you can include the other countries in the UK as being part of it. They very much straddle the fence or are even on the EU's side, and in the long-term may well leave us in order to rejoin the EU.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2021 12:07]
The vote in England wasn't heavily in favour either, so "straddled" applies to the whole country really. But, like sitting on a bike, even if you look evenly balanced, you generally "dress" to one side or the other.
It is going to get very messy if, as the India Vaccine Institute have suggested that there is likely to be a shortage of raw materials, most of which are now subject to the USA Defense instrument. We could end up scrapping with the EU over vaccines that are not available anyway.
Trumpeting that our vaccination programme was better than the EU's because of Brexit, even if it was, was not the most diplomatic thing to do.
A low key exit from the EU might have helped smooth things over but the triumphalism has made the EU our long-term enemies. They are going to have us so wrapped up in red tape that trade and cooperation are going to be very difficult. And to compound matters, as we are forced to turn away from Europe, Joe Biden's pro-Irish, pro-EU, anti-English sentiments aren't going to help matters at all. He's already talking up a united Ireland.
Trumpeting that our vaccination programme was better than the EU's because of Brexit, even if it was, was not the most diplomatic thing to do.
A low key exit from the EU might have helped smooth things over but the triumphalism has made the EU our long-term enemies. They are going to have us so wrapped up in red tape that trade and cooperation are going to be very difficult. And to compound matters, as we are forced to turn away from Europe, Joe Biden's pro-Irish, pro-EU, anti-English sentiments aren't going to help matters at all. He's already talking up a united Ireland.
[Post edited 19 Mar 2021 9:26]
Unfortunately, those now in charge have only got one song.
People will get fed up of it eventually. But not for a while yet I fear.
Unfortunately, those now in charge have only got one song.
People will get fed up of it eventually. But not for a while yet I fear.
Fortunately, they have a plan: we are going to join the Pacific trade alliance and flood Japan Malaysia and Vietnam with our cheap manufactured goods. As an added bonus, our exporters will then have no further need to worry about paying the fares to send their goods across the Chunnel. It's a win-win situation..
Fortunately, they have a plan: we are going to join the Pacific trade alliance and flood Japan Malaysia and Vietnam with our cheap manufactured goods. As an added bonus, our exporters will then have no further need to worry about paying the fares to send their goods across the Chunnel. It's a win-win situation..
[Post edited 19 Mar 2021 10:19]
I understand you’re unhappy with Brexit but it’s a reality . Does all your anti Uk sentiment cheer you up? Why are you wallowing in what you’ve called a disaster? Think you should google the word meaning. I’m worried about your mental health. You must be really fun to drink with atm.
I understand you’re unhappy with Brexit but it’s a reality . Does all your anti Uk sentiment cheer you up? Why are you wallowing in what you’ve called a disaster? Think you should google the word meaning. I’m worried about your mental health. You must be really fun to drink with atm.
I'm not sure it was particularly anarchic. There was more nostalgia to it than anarchy. Most Brexiteers wanted to bring back the England of the 1900s or, at the very least, the 1950s
Unless you live on the Isle of Wight, where almost nothing has changed since then, it's amazing now to recall how insular England was in the 1950s and how little travel or contact with foreigners there was for most people. Holidays were a week spent in the nearest English seaside resort. At my primary school, not only were all of the children white but they were all born in the local area. Foreign goods were rare. There wasn't a Japanese car to be seen on the roads, which had very little traffic on them anyway. Most products had made in England stamped on them. Really, I think that is what many Brexiteers yearned for. Having traditional toffs, like Boris and Rees-Mogg, in charge, is part of that 1950s dream when there was a society where everyone 'knew his place.'
It is hardly surprising, therefore, that the voters most solidly behind Brexit and, in fact, the ones who got it over the line, were those born in the 1950s or earlier still.
[Post edited 17 Mar 2021 11:16]
What complete bollox you write. We all yern for the British Empire etc 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
Fortunately, they have a plan: we are going to join the Pacific trade alliance and flood Japan Malaysia and Vietnam with our cheap manufactured goods. As an added bonus, our exporters will then have no further need to worry about paying the fares to send their goods across the Chunnel. It's a win-win situation..
What complete bollox you write. We all yern for the British Empire etc 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
Why don't you want to live in the Brexit paradise of England? It wasn't because you told everybody that you thought it was such an unjust and unfair country, was it? At least, even though you've chosen to live as far away from England as possible, you've still got David Icke to talk common sense to you via the internet. Do you still believe that coronavirus is caused by telephone masts and that it doesn't really kill people? What was it you were saying about 'complete bollox'?
Why don't you want to live in the Brexit paradise of England? It wasn't because you told everybody that you thought it was such an unjust and unfair country, was it? At least, even though you've chosen to live as far away from England as possible, you've still got David Icke to talk common sense to you via the internet. Do you still believe that coronavirus is caused by telephone masts and that it doesn't really kill people? What was it you were saying about 'complete bollox'?
[Post edited 20 Mar 2021 5:58]
I live in Dorset pal. Cheer up, the OBR's latest forecast:
The OBR now expects the UK economy to regain its pre-pandemic size in the third quarter of 2022, six months earlier than it forecast in November. It has cut its forecast for GDP growth in 2021 to 4 per cent, reflecting the effects of the first-quarter lockdown. But it expects a rapid rebound as restrictions lift later this year, with growth in output of 7.3 per cent in 2022.
I just dont get why Ian and Dirk hate our country.
They will say they dontt , but they are so Pro EU they must do.
I am proud to be British and that includes all of it. The EU was good for the UK and that's why I wanted us to stay in it and why our enemies, including the Russians, didn't. I remember Brexiteers calling everyone who disagreed with them traitors. Trying to bully everybody in the country into agreeing with your views is anything but patriotic in a country where we value freedom of speech. That's what Hitler and Stalin did. They silenced sensible dissenting views.
Being in favour of the EU does not mean you hate the UK. It means you value a policy of peaceful cooperation between countries, rather than one of isolationism, as isolationism has never been particularly beneficial to any country.
I am proud to be British and that includes all of it. The EU was good for the UK and that's why I wanted us to stay in it and why our enemies, including the Russians, didn't. I remember Brexiteers calling everyone who disagreed with them traitors. Trying to bully everybody in the country into agreeing with your views is anything but patriotic in a country where we value freedom of speech. That's what Hitler and Stalin did. They silenced sensible dissenting views.
Being in favour of the EU does not mean you hate the UK. It means you value a policy of peaceful cooperation between countries, rather than one of isolationism, as isolationism has never been particularly beneficial to any country.
[Post edited 20 Mar 2021 22:31]
bollox , You optically motivated or hate MY country.
bollox , You optically motivated or hate MY country.
Are you racist Dirk ?
No he will fly the blue flag with stars , i wont.
[Post edited 20 Mar 2021 22:20]
As the country you are currently inhabiting is Alcoholand, I won't hold it against you. Tomorrow morning you probably won't even remember what you posted on here.
Good night, Bison. What a great win it was for Saints today.
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