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Multiculturalism going well on 20:46 - Jun 1 by exiledclaseboy
The convention and the HRA are different things. The ECHR's decisions aren't binding. And both the convention and the court are separate from the EU.
Please read the materials at the links. My post and those materials are about the ECHR not the HRA. The Convention established the Court so that signing up for the Convention means accepting the jurisdiction of the Court. Article 6 of the Lisbon Treaty (if it remains in its present form) would mean that EU law must take account of ECHR case law and all member states must sign the Convention. The Court's judgments are binding (see Article 46 of the Convention below), but it may also be asked for advisory opinions on general principles of the Convention, which do not have the same force.
I don't understand your point about clear separation when I have pointed out how a specific 2009 EU Treaty clause (quoted in full) has created a connection. From the ECHR side Protocol 14, Article 17 allows the EU to become a party to the Convention (to sign as a state would). All this stuff can be easily checked online if anybody is interested. Yes, your initial point about the ECHR being a child of the Council of Europe and not the EU is correct, but it fails to acknowledge the complexities.
ARTICLE 46 Binding force and execution of judgments 1. The High Contracting Parties undertake to abide by the final judgment of the Court in any case to which they are parties. 2. The final judgment of the Court shall be transmitted to the Committee of Ministers, which shall supervise its execution. 3. If the Committee of Ministers considers that the supervision of the execution of a final judgment is hindered by a problem of interpretation of the judgment, it may refer the matter to the Court for a ruling on the question of interpretation. A referral decision shall require a majority vote of two thirds of the representatives entitled to sit on the committee. 4. If the Committee of Ministers considers that a High Contracting Party refuses to abide by a final judgment in a case to which it is a party, it may, after serving formal notice on that Party and by decision adopted by a majority vote of two thirds of the representatives entitled to sit on the committee, refer to the Court the question whether that Party has failed to fulfil its obligation under paragraph1. 5. If the Court finds a violation of paragraph 1, it shall refer the case to the Committee of Ministers for consideration of the measures to be taken. If the Court finds no violation of 26 27 paragraph1, it shall refer the case to the Committee of Ministers, which shall close its examination of the case.
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Multiculturalism going well on 21:27 - Jun 1 with 1765 views
Multiculturalism going well on 21:23 - Jun 1 by AnotherJohn
Please read the materials at the links. My post and those materials are about the ECHR not the HRA. The Convention established the Court so that signing up for the Convention means accepting the jurisdiction of the Court. Article 6 of the Lisbon Treaty (if it remains in its present form) would mean that EU law must take account of ECHR case law and all member states must sign the Convention. The Court's judgments are binding (see Article 46 of the Convention below), but it may also be asked for advisory opinions on general principles of the Convention, which do not have the same force.
I don't understand your point about clear separation when I have pointed out how a specific 2009 EU Treaty clause (quoted in full) has created a connection. From the ECHR side Protocol 14, Article 17 allows the EU to become a party to the Convention (to sign as a state would). All this stuff can be easily checked online if anybody is interested. Yes, your initial point about the ECHR being a child of the Council of Europe and not the EU is correct, but it fails to acknowledge the complexities.
ARTICLE 46 Binding force and execution of judgments 1. The High Contracting Parties undertake to abide by the final judgment of the Court in any case to which they are parties. 2. The final judgment of the Court shall be transmitted to the Committee of Ministers, which shall supervise its execution. 3. If the Committee of Ministers considers that the supervision of the execution of a final judgment is hindered by a problem of interpretation of the judgment, it may refer the matter to the Court for a ruling on the question of interpretation. A referral decision shall require a majority vote of two thirds of the representatives entitled to sit on the committee. 4. If the Committee of Ministers considers that a High Contracting Party refuses to abide by a final judgment in a case to which it is a party, it may, after serving formal notice on that Party and by decision adopted by a majority vote of two thirds of the representatives entitled to sit on the committee, refer to the Court the question whether that Party has failed to fulfil its obligation under paragraph1. 5. If the Court finds a violation of paragraph 1, it shall refer the case to the Committee of Ministers for consideration of the measures to be taken. If the Court finds no violation of 26 27 paragraph1, it shall refer the case to the Committee of Ministers, which shall close its examination of the case.
I was replying to Bony's point about the EU imposing human rights laws on the UK. It doesn't and never has. What you've copied and pasted (at length) is irrelevant.
Multiculturalism going well on 21:27 - Jun 1 by exiledclaseboy
I was replying to Bony's point about the EU imposing human rights laws on the UK. It doesn't and never has. What you've copied and pasted (at length) is irrelevant.
[Post edited 1 Jun 2016 21:29]
Let's face it your grasp of European and EU law is rather limited.
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Multiculturalism going well on 21:31 - Jun 1 with 1742 views
Multiculturalism going well on 21:21 - Jun 1 by Kerouac
Not at all. Obviously. e.g. the Americas (although the Europeans didn't turn them into waste lands and walk away....they murdered people, stole the land and the resources, imposed their culture and religion) As you well know, it's called Imperialism.
I am addressing the here and now, and more importantly Bony's point;
"Some would say to the above what about the West going into Islamic countries like Iraq,Afghanistan,Libya etc killing millions not hundreds,turning them into wastelands then walking away. Where are the videos that Islam has done that to us?"
Does Bony's description fit the conduct of the West in those 3 nations? Which former Islamic country have we "turned into a wasteland", can you name me one? As far as I'm aware the borders of Islam have been expanding since the 7th century....gradually after an initial explosion. This is imperialism. If it was wrong when European Christians were doing it hundreds of years ago it is wrong now isn't it? Or is imperialism just fine as long as it is Islamic?
The difference is, the West has stopped this kind of behaviour whereas this kind of behaviour has been a constant with Islam. They are on our streets demanding our submission whilst simultaneously reaping all of the benefits, all of the freedoms, of living here for christ sake!
Do you think the behaviour in that video is justified by what the West is doing in the World today?
Last month, the Washington DC-based Physicians for Social Responsibility (PRS) released a landmark study concluding that the death toll from 10 years of the “War on Terror” since the 9/11 attacks is at least 1.3 million, and could be as high as 2 million.
The 97-page report by the Nobel Peace Prize-winning doctors’ group is the first to tally up the total number of civilian casualties from US-led counter-terrorism interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Multiculturalism going well on 21:31 - Jun 1 by exiledclaseboy
Ha. If you like, Littlejohn.
Well if you are so good at Googling then show me the text you say I have copied and pasted, apart from the actual Treaty/Convention Articles quoted. The links should give you a start in trying to find some direct quotes that have been lifted, but you will search in vain. It is rather like your feigned ignorance about the 'Pixie' term that appears in many places including Mirror politics threads. You make deeply ignorant statements such as the claim that ECHR judgments are non-binding and somehow convince yourself that you are the smart one.
[Post edited 1 Jun 2016 21:52]
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Multiculturalism going well on 22:01 - Jun 1 with 1695 views
Multiculturalism going well on 21:48 - Jun 1 by AnotherJohn
Well if you are so good at Googling then show me the text you say I have copied and pasted, apart from the actual Treaty/Convention Articles quoted. The links should give you a start in trying to find some direct quotes that have been lifted, but you will search in vain. It is rather like your feigned ignorance about the 'Pixie' term that appears in many places including Mirror politics threads. You make deeply ignorant statements such as the claim that ECHR judgments are non-binding and somehow convince yourself that you are the smart one.
[Post edited 1 Jun 2016 21:52]
Despite your posturing, it's way too simplistic to simply claim that ECHR rulings are binding on signatories to the convention and the court because it's simply not true in the sense that you are implying (ECHR says, UK must do) and is far more complex than that.
And it's all irrelevant to the leave or remain EU debate.
Multiculturalism going well on 21:21 - Jun 1 by Kerouac
Not at all. Obviously. e.g. the Americas (although the Europeans didn't turn them into waste lands and walk away....they murdered people, stole the land and the resources, imposed their culture and religion) As you well know, it's called Imperialism.
I am addressing the here and now, and more importantly Bony's point;
"Some would say to the above what about the West going into Islamic countries like Iraq,Afghanistan,Libya etc killing millions not hundreds,turning them into wastelands then walking away. Where are the videos that Islam has done that to us?"
Does Bony's description fit the conduct of the West in those 3 nations? Which former Islamic country have we "turned into a wasteland", can you name me one? As far as I'm aware the borders of Islam have been expanding since the 7th century....gradually after an initial explosion. This is imperialism. If it was wrong when European Christians were doing it hundreds of years ago it is wrong now isn't it? Or is imperialism just fine as long as it is Islamic?
The difference is, the West has stopped this kind of behaviour whereas this kind of behaviour has been a constant with Islam. They are on our streets demanding our submission whilst simultaneously reaping all of the benefits, all of the freedoms, of living here for christ sake!
Do you think the behaviour in that video is justified by what the West is doing in the World today?
I haven't watched a video and nor do I intend to do so.
With regard to your specific question - yes, the West has turned both Iraq and Syria to mention just two into a wasteland. Not only the west, but partly at least.
We can't comprehend how it must feel to live in these countries now - abject horror I imagine.
But I was making no point about anything other than you stated that the West doesn't behave like that and I was pointing out that was nonsense. And we certainly haven't stopped it.
And no one is on our streets demanding our submission other than a few crazy loons who are roundly ignored.
Multiculturalism going well on 22:01 - Jun 1 by exiledclaseboy
Despite your posturing, it's way too simplistic to simply claim that ECHR rulings are binding on signatories to the convention and the court because it's simply not true in the sense that you are implying (ECHR says, UK must do) and is far more complex than that.
And it's all irrelevant to the leave or remain EU debate.
[Post edited 1 Jun 2016 22:02]
The process is there in Article 46 which I quoted in full. The clue is in the heading: 'Binding force and execution of judgments'. You won't find many international Conventions or Treaties with a tougher statement,
I've taken my cue from PC Plod - when dealing with a _______ quote the law in full.
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Multiculturalism going well on 23:28 - Jun 1 with 1638 views
Multiculturalism going well on 22:10 - Jun 1 by londonlisa2001
I haven't watched a video and nor do I intend to do so.
With regard to your specific question - yes, the West has turned both Iraq and Syria to mention just two into a wasteland. Not only the west, but partly at least.
We can't comprehend how it must feel to live in these countries now - abject horror I imagine.
But I was making no point about anything other than you stated that the West doesn't behave like that and I was pointing out that was nonsense. And we certainly haven't stopped it.
And no one is on our streets demanding our submission other than a few crazy loons who are roundly ignored.
If you watched the video, and countless others, you would know that there are more than a "few" crazy loons on our streets.
By the way, you need to watch that video if you are going to say things like;
"But I was making no point about anything other than you stated that the West doesn't behave like that and I was pointing out that was nonsense. And we certainly haven't stopped it.
As what I stated was, show me the video of Europeans behaving like that. If you are saying Europeans do behave like those Muslims in the video then you will have to give me an example of thousands of Europeans living in another country, in an alien culture, the minority....rampaging through that countries streets, demanding submission to European law, screaming provocative things about that country's soldiers, police, culture and state....declaring through a megaphone that this imaginary country's cities are now ours and soon we will have our way regardless of what you "unbelievers" wish for your own country. C'mon Lis, give me an example.
"With regard to your specific question - yes, the West has turned both Iraq and Syria to mention just two into a wasteland. Not only the west, but partly at least. "
So Iraq was lovely under Saddam was it, a rose garden before the war he raged on Iran 1980-1988, an oasis following his invasion of Kuwait to steal their oil fields (therefore necessitating his army's expulsion in the first Gulf War - 6 months that one) and the resulting economic sanctions. Yeah, we turned it into a wasteland. Give me strength.
You see, there are consequences to actions and those responsible are the ones who need to be held account.....not those who have to come in and sort the Arabs problems out for them.
.....and Syria, please, walk me through how we are responsible for that one. It would really make me chuckle to read the contortions you'd have to go through to try and make your argument fit the picture.
Multiculturalism going well on 23:28 - Jun 1 by Kerouac
If you watched the video, and countless others, you would know that there are more than a "few" crazy loons on our streets.
By the way, you need to watch that video if you are going to say things like;
"But I was making no point about anything other than you stated that the West doesn't behave like that and I was pointing out that was nonsense. And we certainly haven't stopped it.
As what I stated was, show me the video of Europeans behaving like that. If you are saying Europeans do behave like those Muslims in the video then you will have to give me an example of thousands of Europeans living in another country, in an alien culture, the minority....rampaging through that countries streets, demanding submission to European law, screaming provocative things about that country's soldiers, police, culture and state....declaring through a megaphone that this imaginary country's cities are now ours and soon we will have our way regardless of what you "unbelievers" wish for your own country. C'mon Lis, give me an example.
"With regard to your specific question - yes, the West has turned both Iraq and Syria to mention just two into a wasteland. Not only the west, but partly at least. "
So Iraq was lovely under Saddam was it, a rose garden before the war he raged on Iran 1980-1988, an oasis following his invasion of Kuwait to steal their oil fields (therefore necessitating his army's expulsion in the first Gulf War - 6 months that one) and the resulting economic sanctions. Yeah, we turned it into a wasteland. Give me strength.
You see, there are consequences to actions and those responsible are the ones who need to be held account.....not those who have to come in and sort the Arabs problems out for them.
.....and Syria, please, walk me through how we are responsible for that one. It would really make me chuckle to read the contortions you'd have to go through to try and make your argument fit the picture.
I stated that White Europeans have done exactly what you describe - go into other countries, scream and shout about our laws, our religion. Impose our wishes and way of life. We don't need to march down streets shouting on megaphones because we have warplanes, and drones, and bombs that remove the need for that.
Look at one of the countless videos of us destroying Iraq while 'Shock and Awe' rolled on a continuous loop on the bottom of the screen and tell me that we don't do that. The people there would probably on balance have preferred 500 of us marching with a megaphone don't you think? I'm not saying for one moment it's our fault that criminal savages act in the way that they do, as their behaviour and actions are repugnant, but it's simply not true to say that we haven't ever imposed our culture on others - we do it all the time. And with far greater success incidentally.
[Post edited 1 Jun 2016 23:59]
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Multiculturalism going well on 00:43 - Jun 2 with 1591 views
Multiculturalism going well on 23:58 - Jun 1 by londonlisa2001
I stated that White Europeans have done exactly what you describe - go into other countries, scream and shout about our laws, our religion. Impose our wishes and way of life. We don't need to march down streets shouting on megaphones because we have warplanes, and drones, and bombs that remove the need for that.
Look at one of the countless videos of us destroying Iraq while 'Shock and Awe' rolled on a continuous loop on the bottom of the screen and tell me that we don't do that. The people there would probably on balance have preferred 500 of us marching with a megaphone don't you think? I'm not saying for one moment it's our fault that criminal savages act in the way that they do, as their behaviour and actions are repugnant, but it's simply not true to say that we haven't ever imposed our culture on others - we do it all the time. And with far greater success incidentally.
[Post edited 1 Jun 2016 23:59]
Excuse me, how are we "imposing our culture" on Iraq and Syria. That is blatantly not true. Back up your arguments with evidence or concede the point.
Most of those dead or dying in Iraq and Syria were killed by their fellow Muslims. There are 2 civil wars going on, in both cases Sunni Muslims are trying to get the upper hand; - in Syria where they have had the majority in terms of population but didn't have their hands on the levers of power. - and Iraq where they have around 40% of the population.
The Levant is the battleground. Sunni participants are funded by Sunni states; Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey. Shia participants are funded by Iran and Hezbollah....with Assad's ruling Alawites allied with the country's Shias (and to complicate things further supported by the Russians....who always, always, look to weaken the Ottoman empire (modern day Turkey).
It is Islam tearing itself apart again.
The reasons for our participation, air strikes, include; 1) THE SUNNI MUSLIM MAJORITY OF SYRIA ASKING FOR OUR HELP BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING CRUSHED BY ASSAD'S MILITARY....get it? We were INVITED 2) Assad putting himself on the naughty step what with his attempt at building nuclear weapons, funded by Iran (with technical assistance from North Korea) which was uncovered 7/8 years ago. 3) The Assad regime's alliance with Russia
Multiculturalism going well on 21:40 - Jun 1 by Lord_Bony
Last month, the Washington DC-based Physicians for Social Responsibility (PRS) released a landmark study concluding that the death toll from 10 years of the “War on Terror” since the 9/11 attacks is at least 1.3 million, and could be as high as 2 million.
The 97-page report by the Nobel Peace Prize-winning doctors’ group is the first to tally up the total number of civilian casualties from US-led counter-terrorism interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
I can't seem to find the study you refer to on that site.
Does the article by Hafsa Kara-Mustapha refer to it? She mentions a figure of 1 million. I wouldn't take her seriously anyway;
"Today, as Westminster claims it upholds the values of free speech and debate, opposing Zionism, an ideology that was once condemned by UN Resolution 3379 as racist, is no longer possible. The main opposition party is still reeling from a scandal that erupted last month when one of its MPs was accused of making anti-Semitic remarks for her outspoken criticism of Israel at the height of the onslaught on Gaza in 2014.
Since then, that belief - that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic - has almost become entrenched in public discourse and, in the past month alone, notable critics of Israel have been slowly but surely shut down for formulating very legitimate criticism of Tel Aviv's occupation and settler policies."
Multiculturalism going well on 19:57 - Jun 1 by Kerouac
"Some would say to the above what about the West going into Islamic countries like Iraq,Afghanistan,Libya etc killing millions not hundreds,turning them into wastelands then walking away. Where are the videos that Islam has done that to us?"
Bony, I would just say... 1) check your numbers 2) Which country have we "turned" into a "wasteland" 3) Why were we there at all? Is it the case that we have been there out of necessity?
Afghanistan - They were allowing Islamic terrorists who were waging war on the US and Europe to operate training camps there.
Libya - A ruthless Islamic dictator (who was no friend of the West) was toppled in a popular uprising, overthrown by Muslims. We did not create that situation whatsoever and are only helping, in the power vacuum, Libyans to find a way of creating a stable country.
Iraq - I was against that war, the UK parliament and public were sold a pup.....but is it not the case that Muslims the world over and their friends in the West (including George Galloway in the 1980s) were opposed to Saddam Hussein and called on him to be toppled, is it not true that he gassed minorities in Iraq, waged war with the Islamic republic of Iran and invaded another Muslim Arab state in Kuwait....totally unprovoked?
As I see it Islam is fundamentally unstable. Societies that try to organise themselves along the lines of how Mohammed might have liked them too are trying to impose a system of life which requires the suppression of what it is that makes us human. This thought control (the Religious police are in effect the thought police) and the terrible punishments dished out will only cause enmity within those societies and give a free pass to anyone who enjoys bullying and violence to do it in the name of Islam. You can see it everywhere you look in these societies. Different groups trying to out pious eachother...."I know what Mohammed meant and what Allah would have approved of!", "no it is I who serve allah best!" etc. There is no central authority in Islam (e.g. a pope), meaning anyone can claim moral authority and set about starting their own caliphate. The Koran states that some Muslims (those who don't follow to the letter the teachings of the Koran) are not real Muslims and must be punished by death.
It is a recipe for chaos.....and the chaos is everywhere you look.
Some of the more unsavoury aspects of Islam are amplified when people who follow this ideology rub up against those who don't.....and the Koran demands that the unbelievers (you and I) submit or be put to death.
A side effect of this is the stuff spilling over and negatively effecting our societies and our interests. Why on earth do you think that so many muslims have emmigrated here? Because their societies are a mess. A lot of the 1st generation immigrant understands this but in the face of an alien society they cling to the comfort blanket of religion. The 2nd and 3rd generations haven't learned the lesson at all and have been brainwashed down the mosque that everything would be perfect if we all just agreed to submit to Islam.
If they ditched, drastically reformed their religion their part of the world wouldn't besuch an awful place for a human being to be and therefore wouldn't be in such a mess.
You can't say we are the bad guys for having to clean up other people's problems.
IMO.
[Post edited 2 Jun 2016 8:38]
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--forever.
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Multiculturalism going well on 09:26 - Jun 2 with 1507 views
Multiculturalism going well on 01:09 - Jun 2 by Kerouac
I can't seem to find the study you refer to on that site.
Does the article by Hafsa Kara-Mustapha refer to it? She mentions a figure of 1 million. I wouldn't take her seriously anyway;
"Today, as Westminster claims it upholds the values of free speech and debate, opposing Zionism, an ideology that was once condemned by UN Resolution 3379 as racist, is no longer possible. The main opposition party is still reeling from a scandal that erupted last month when one of its MPs was accused of making anti-Semitic remarks for her outspoken criticism of Israel at the height of the onslaught on Gaza in 2014.
Since then, that belief - that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic - has almost become entrenched in public discourse and, in the past month alone, notable critics of Israel have been slowly but surely shut down for formulating very legitimate criticism of Tel Aviv's occupation and settler policies."
Multiculturalism going well on 00:43 - Jun 2 by Kerouac
Excuse me, how are we "imposing our culture" on Iraq and Syria. That is blatantly not true. Back up your arguments with evidence or concede the point.
Most of those dead or dying in Iraq and Syria were killed by their fellow Muslims. There are 2 civil wars going on, in both cases Sunni Muslims are trying to get the upper hand; - in Syria where they have had the majority in terms of population but didn't have their hands on the levers of power. - and Iraq where they have around 40% of the population.
The Levant is the battleground. Sunni participants are funded by Sunni states; Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey. Shia participants are funded by Iran and Hezbollah....with Assad's ruling Alawites allied with the country's Shias (and to complicate things further supported by the Russians....who always, always, look to weaken the Ottoman empire (modern day Turkey).
It is Islam tearing itself apart again.
The reasons for our participation, air strikes, include; 1) THE SUNNI MUSLIM MAJORITY OF SYRIA ASKING FOR OUR HELP BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING CRUSHED BY ASSAD'S MILITARY....get it? We were INVITED 2) Assad putting himself on the naughty step what with his attempt at building nuclear weapons, funded by Iran (with technical assistance from North Korea) which was uncovered 7/8 years ago. 3) The Assad regime's alliance with Russia
I didn't say we had - you really must learn to read. I said we (Europeans) have imposed our culture on other nations on many occasions.
Having said that, there would be an interesting discussion on whether Western ideas of nationhood, borders, democracy and so on being imposed on parts of the world that were essentially tribal has led to some of the unrest we see today.
By the way - we were talking about White Europeans as that's the phrase you used initially - not sure why you don't include Russia in that? I'm not separating the UK out from any other White European grouping.
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Multiculturalism going well on 14:18 - Jun 2 with 1418 views
Multiculturalism going well on 14:00 - Jun 2 by londonlisa2001
I didn't say we had - you really must learn to read. I said we (Europeans) have imposed our culture on other nations on many occasions.
Having said that, there would be an interesting discussion on whether Western ideas of nationhood, borders, democracy and so on being imposed on parts of the world that were essentially tribal has led to some of the unrest we see today.
By the way - we were talking about White Europeans as that's the phrase you used initially - not sure why you don't include Russia in that? I'm not separating the UK out from any other White European grouping.
If you are not going to watch the video we have no chance...
I stated "show me the videos of white Europeans behaving like that in Islamic societies" I have already stated that using the word 'white' was a mistake.
Russians who are citizens of Islamic countries are not behaving in the manner that the muslims in the video are. There aren't any European citizens of other countries behaving in that way. If you say there are, instead of changing the goalposts again, provide me with the evidence.
I must also point out that the Russians are involved in Syria because the Assad regime (the Alawites, supported by Shia Muslims) have invited them.
Let me spell it out for you. In WWII Europe descended into chaos, an orgy of violence started by Fascists. There were people fighting in Europe from all over the World....they were invited by the opposing sides. They were not there suppressing European culture and it was EUROPEANS who were responsible for that War and all that unnecessary death and suffering. We thanked the Americans, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders, Indians, Pakistanis, Nepalese, and people of the Carribbean at the time and remain respectful of what they contributed to European stability.
Multiculturalism going well on 14:18 - Jun 2 by Kerouac
If you are not going to watch the video we have no chance...
I stated "show me the videos of white Europeans behaving like that in Islamic societies" I have already stated that using the word 'white' was a mistake.
Russians who are citizens of Islamic countries are not behaving in the manner that the muslims in the video are. There aren't any European citizens of other countries behaving in that way. If you say there are, instead of changing the goalposts again, provide me with the evidence.
I must also point out that the Russians are involved in Syria because the Assad regime (the Alawites, supported by Shia Muslims) have invited them.
Let me spell it out for you. In WWII Europe descended into chaos, an orgy of violence started by Fascists. There were people fighting in Europe from all over the World....they were invited by the opposing sides. They were not there suppressing European culture and it was EUROPEANS who were responsible for that War and all that unnecessary death and suffering. We thanked the Americans, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders, Indians, Pakistanis, Nepalese, and people of the Carribbean at the time and remain respectful of what they contributed to European stability.
Get it?
I continue to fail to understand why your posts have to be so aggressive.
To summarise - you said that you don't see 'White Europeans' rampaging through streets shouting and trying to impose our culture on others. I pointed out that we have done on many occasions. I also pointed out that we tend not to use megaphones but use bombs or armies or other shows of force instead. You don't seem to understand that the way we have done things may be different (because we have far superior weaponry and armed forces) but the intent is the same - to impose ourselves on others. I have made no comment on whether that is right or wrong by the way.
Drop the nonsense will you - it's hugely boring to be asked to defend a point that I didn't make just because you can't understand.
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Multiculturalism going well on 15:02 - Jun 2 with 1403 views
Multiculturalism going well on 14:35 - Jun 2 by londonlisa2001
I continue to fail to understand why your posts have to be so aggressive.
To summarise - you said that you don't see 'White Europeans' rampaging through streets shouting and trying to impose our culture on others. I pointed out that we have done on many occasions. I also pointed out that we tend not to use megaphones but use bombs or armies or other shows of force instead. You don't seem to understand that the way we have done things may be different (because we have far superior weaponry and armed forces) but the intent is the same - to impose ourselves on others. I have made no comment on whether that is right or wrong by the way.
Drop the nonsense will you - it's hugely boring to be asked to defend a point that I didn't make just because you can't understand.
There's something getting lost in translation here because I am genuinely not intending to be aggressive in the slightest. I've stated before that I read for a long time before ever posting here and always found you to be a sensible, likeable poster.
I was taught by my History teacher, a man who had the greatest influence on my education....he was genuinely inspiring, to never write a sentence without answering the question. To write as few sentences as necessary and to make a point which supports my argument in as many of those sentences as possible.
Maybe that's why I am rubbing you and a few others up the wrong way. I have done my reading and have taken into account opposing sides of the arguments on this topic. I have arrived at my own conclusions and am expressing them directly, forcefully...to attempt to win the debate by persuading as many people as possible to come round to my way of thinking.
I apologise if my manner offends you. It's just that the events captured in the video at the top of this thread trouble me and I think it is vitally important that people wake up to the fact that this ideology is different and more dangerous than many others and is in the ascendancy. I am worried for the future of our own children. We can't use our "superior weapons" to bomb our own cities.
I disagree with your argument that we are enforcing our own culture on Muslim states. The Arabs wanted out of the Ottoman empire, it was a popular uprising. They wanted their own states. We helped them because their objectives helped us achieve our own (the destruction of the Ottoman empire....and friendly states who owed us a debt of gratitude in charge of the oil fields that would prove so vital to World economic growth and the prosperity of billions in the future).
Now, after about a hundred years of having petro dollars poured into their coffers these states are responsible for themselves and what kind of countries that exist there today. We don't have to feel guilty, not one iota. The Middle East is not the result of imperialism, they threw those shackles off between the 20s and the 50s. The region is chaotic because of the structure of their societies. A structure which was laid down in the Koran....and they need to take responsibility for it, not us.
Multiculturalism going well on 15:02 - Jun 2 by Kerouac
There's something getting lost in translation here because I am genuinely not intending to be aggressive in the slightest. I've stated before that I read for a long time before ever posting here and always found you to be a sensible, likeable poster.
I was taught by my History teacher, a man who had the greatest influence on my education....he was genuinely inspiring, to never write a sentence without answering the question. To write as few sentences as necessary and to make a point which supports my argument in as many of those sentences as possible.
Maybe that's why I am rubbing you and a few others up the wrong way. I have done my reading and have taken into account opposing sides of the arguments on this topic. I have arrived at my own conclusions and am expressing them directly, forcefully...to attempt to win the debate by persuading as many people as possible to come round to my way of thinking.
I apologise if my manner offends you. It's just that the events captured in the video at the top of this thread trouble me and I think it is vitally important that people wake up to the fact that this ideology is different and more dangerous than many others and is in the ascendancy. I am worried for the future of our own children. We can't use our "superior weapons" to bomb our own cities.
I disagree with your argument that we are enforcing our own culture on Muslim states. The Arabs wanted out of the Ottoman empire, it was a popular uprising. They wanted their own states. We helped them because their objectives helped us achieve our own (the destruction of the Ottoman empire....and friendly states who owed us a debt of gratitude in charge of the oil fields that would prove so vital to World economic growth and the prosperity of billions in the future).
Now, after about a hundred years of having petro dollars poured into their coffers these states are responsible for themselves and what kind of countries that exist there today. We don't have to feel guilty, not one iota. The Middle East is not the result of imperialism, they threw those shackles off between the 20s and the 50s. The region is chaotic because of the structure of their societies. A structure which was laid down in the Koran....and they need to take responsibility for it, not us.
Well then avoid writing 'Get it' at the end of posts?
I didn't make the argument that we are imposing our culture on Moslem States at the moment - although as I said you could have a discussion about that and see it in a wider context where 'our culture' includes our ideas of nationhood, borders and democracy in a part of the world where it quite possibly will never fit.
In my original post I didn't mention Islamic States at all - that's what I keep saying. I widened the discussion to talk about the way we have imposed our culture all round the world. I also followed on from the point Bony made about turning some of these countries into wastelands, which we have done. They are two separate points, though linked in some ways. You are trying to mix them up to something I didn't say.
I haven't watched the video because it is nothing new - as someone said it was posted 6 years ago and I have seen many similar videos so can't be bothered to watch again.
The point is that many of us have done reading or listening or watching or talking around the subject but you write as though we are somehow all just failing to open our eyes. We are opening our eyes but in some cases just draw a different conclusion. That's all.
I also haven't said by the way that we cause stuff or don't or whether we should feel guilty or not - I made it clear that no one can excuse the behaviour of violent thugs. My view is different to yours - it doesn't mean that I don't have concerns about extremism, it simply means that I view the causes of I extremism differently to you and also the way to tackle it differently.
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Multiculturalism going well on 15:35 - Jun 2 with 1389 views
Multiculturalism going well on 15:35 - Jun 2 by oh_tommy_tommy
I'd sum it up as ;
The West killed millions in the middle east The west left waste lands Iraq , Libya allowing gangsters to rule the lands .
The west are up to their eye balls in murder & corruption .
The west have caused this fleeing of lands by the thousands , fleeing war , fleeing terrorists .
We've caused all this sh!t
It's a disgrace .
I have done f*ck all to support and vote for the parties in question.. I have clearly stated my disdain for the party who played all the cards.. it's the Labour party and it's voters.. the latest swing in the Welsh election.. clearly outlines the faith people have in the party.
The education system is having a f*cking revamp.. because it's genuinely p*ss poor.. especially when bottom class bottom feeders like me can put educated.. well read people to the sword.
The Labour party ministers can't believe what they are seeing and monitoring on a day to day basis.. when they skulk around academic institutions..
If people like me can see it's a shambles.. I'm fearing for our future..
One example.. Drs advocate running, fitness and nutrition for mental illness.. yet they fail to specify that a 'proper' sleep is the essential f*cking repairing tool.. you have youngsters running around slurping nutrients and supplements and their body clock is all to f*ck.. because they're struggling to sleep correctly.. it's medical basics.. it's no point giving people nutrients and supplements if they're not sleeping correctly after the exercise.. yet they persist to send them to the gym and herbal life.
The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds.
ok Enough is enough. This pseudo interlectual bun fight is heavy on the eyes. This is as it is.
First, The West is the place where those in the (middle) east head for for a better life (apart from those who want to kill us). Nobody in their right mind goes in the opposite direction.
The West has not been the cause of this mayhem. Its because this fetid ,filthy part of the world is also the centre of religious zeal and has always been . They would squabble and fight if we were not there,or had been there or had taken their oil/land.
Quite why those in the west beat themselves up so much is one of life s mysteries to me. It aint our fault folks
One of the ironic freedoms we have ,ie freedom of speech ,is denied in lands which so many are upset over. It aint our fault.
Or maybe it is and we should have left these dogs to fight and to kill each other out of hand because of different forms of Islam
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