| Peterborough bid for Hogan 20:10 - Jan 7 with 55721 views | oddjob007 |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:05 - Jan 8 with 2713 views | 442Dale |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:03 - Jan 8 by macro |
So if a deal has been agreed, what is the snag? |
Probably waiting for us all to stop arguing about it. Or 20 pages in this thread. Whichever one is first. |  |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:05 - Jan 8 with 2710 views | TalkingSutty |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 22:59 - Jan 8 by 442Dale |
Where is the club without Hill bringing on saleable assets? Say it doesn't happen for a couple of years, or if we have a different manager?
Is this part of a thriving business plan involving all areas of the club which support each other? [Post edited 8 Jan 2014 23:01]
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You know the answer to that, its a broken record. We maximise Hilly and the players potential, its up to the off field managers to decide if they are also pulling their weight !! |  | | |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:07 - Jan 8 with 2690 views | dancdale |
We may well have no choice not to sell.
Based on the limited amount of information we have I'd say a likely scenario is that there is a release clause in his contract:-
Hogan had release clause at Hyde.
Bigger clubs were in for him when he joined us.
Weve accepted a bid but far from done deal (clause triggered, cant turn down but waiting for other bids)
No point trying to pre-empt and criticise decisions when we dont know the facts. [Post edited 8 Jan 2014 23:12]
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:10 - Jan 8 with 2668 views | BeckWMG |
Don't be surprised if the "snag" is simply Scott not wanting to move away from his family and friends to a totally new area where she's not certain to play regularly.
KH and CD aren't daft.
They will tell Scott he can have an improved deal and if we don't go up he can go where he wants.
Be VERY surprised if he goes to Peterborough.
EDIT. If the deal had been agreed then you would think any clauses etc would have been sorted then. That's what makes me think it may be something else as above. [Post edited 8 Jan 2014 23:11]
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:12 - Jan 8 with 2652 views | AlexF |
Cant get round it, Hogan would be a significant loss to a promotion push. What worries me far more is that in the event of a successful promotion push, there will be inevitable interest in Hill. For me, that's far far more important/worrying. | | | |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:14 - Jan 8 with 2627 views | Toffeemanc |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 22:32 - Jan 8 by TalkingSutty |
Well said, that post of Ken Boons is the complete opposite of mine.The finances of the club are always paramount and anybody who suggested real football fans dont care is talking stupid.
Regarding Scott Hogan from what i have seen he is an improving league two forward and all of a sudden he is the best thing since sliced bread, well he isnt. He is still very raw with a lot to learn and talk of half a million transfers is laughable. Some fans are over reacting and Hogan needs to get his head down and improve his allround game yet. |
This is the by far the best and most accurate comment on this thread.
Hogan still has a long way to go to turn into a top class player capable of playing first team football higher up the leagues. I don't doubt he has all the attributes to achieve it, but actually achieving it is another matter. Look at the situation Dawson has found himself in at WBA, we know he is good enough but how many first team games has he played since leaving Dale? His career has now become stagnant and potential sell on value is likely to be less now than we thought when we sold him due to his lack of first team football. Hogan could very easily find himself in the same situation if he leaves.
If Hogan is sold now we will be selling based on his future potential as a player, as his current achievements are based on a very short timescale in the lowest league and wouldn't command any reasonable fee. How do you put a price on what he may potentially become?
If the offer is anywhere around £300k and we can get good sell on clauses in the deal I expect he will leave. You have to remember we are basically selling the players potential and not the finished article and £300k + add ons could turn out to be a good deal for Dale if he doesn't make it at a higher level.
If he is sold at least we can count on Hillys track record to bring in a suitable replacement.
Remember 2009-2010 and Buckley being sold? At the time I was convinced it would cost us promotion but it didn't. We are not a one man team and personally I would be a lot more worried if it was Henderson or Lund who were the subject of this speculation.
Ultimately I trust Hill and Dunphy to do what is in the best interests of the club long term and will accept whatever that may be. |  |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:17 - Jan 8 with 2599 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:07 - Jan 8 by dancdale |
We may well have no choice not to sell.
Based on the limited amount of information we have I'd say a likely scenario is that there is a release clause in his contract:-
Hogan had release clause at Hyde.
Bigger clubs were in for him when he joined us.
Weve accepted a bid but far from done deal (clause triggered, cant turn down but waiting for other bids)
No point trying to pre-empt and criticise decisions when we dont know the facts. [Post edited 8 Jan 2014 23:12]
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He was non contract with Hyde and he was looked at by bigger clubs - nobody was in for him prior to joining us.
I cant see a non league player having a "Holty" style release in his contract - hence fee I been told.
Sure it will be undisclosed anyway but 700k is good money for him if we do get the sell on and he wants to go - would you turn down 3-4k a week to move? |  |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:19 - Jan 8 with 2583 views | BeckWMG |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:12 - Jan 8 by AlexF |
Cant get round it, Hogan would be a significant loss to a promotion push. What worries me far more is that in the event of a successful promotion push, there will be inevitable interest in Hill. For me, that's far far more important/worrying. |
I can't see lightning striking twice.
I think KH learnt his lesson on that front. I'm sure he'll be around for a while. | | | |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:19 - Jan 8 with 2579 views | macro |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:17 - Jan 8 by Thacks_Rabbits |
He was non contract with Hyde and he was looked at by bigger clubs - nobody was in for him prior to joining us.
I cant see a non league player having a "Holty" style release in his contract - hence fee I been told.
Sure it will be undisclosed anyway but 700k is good money for him if we do get the sell on and he wants to go - would you turn down 3-4k a week to move? |
He almost joined brum and had trials at Barnsley so clubs were in for him |  | | |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:20 - Jan 8 with 2566 views | 442Dale |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:17 - Jan 8 by Thacks_Rabbits |
He was non contract with Hyde and he was looked at by bigger clubs - nobody was in for him prior to joining us.
I cant see a non league player having a "Holty" style release in his contract - hence fee I been told.
Sure it will be undisclosed anyway but 700k is good money for him if we do get the sell on and he wants to go - would you turn down 3-4k a week to move? |
He was training at Birmingham. Presumably there was enough interest from them to set that up. | |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:21 - Jan 8 with 2540 views | AlexF |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:19 - Jan 8 by BeckWMG |
I can't see lightning striking twice.
I think KH learnt his lesson on that front. I'm sure he'll be around for a while. |
I sincerely hope you're right, however he remains an ambitious guy, just like the top players always are... | | | |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:23 - Jan 8 with 2523 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:20 - Jan 8 by 442Dale |
He was training at Birmingham. Presumably there was enough interest from them to set that up. |
He was looked at but never taken by bigger clubs, Brum were watching him for ages and considered a move but all went wrong for a reason I dont fully know - but clearly he came here so was not in demand!!! | |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:23 - Jan 8 with 2521 views | sandylaner1 |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:17 - Jan 8 by Thacks_Rabbits |
He was non contract with Hyde and he was looked at by bigger clubs - nobody was in for him prior to joining us.
I cant see a non league player having a "Holty" style release in his contract - hence fee I been told.
Sure it will be undisclosed anyway but 700k is good money for him if we do get the sell on and he wants to go - would you turn down 3-4k a week to move? |
700£ grand is very good money yes but we need add ons and % of future fee clauses
posh seem to be trying it on with a lot of strikers, dale need to stay strong in whatever the 'snag' is during the negotiation [Post edited 8 Jan 2014 23:24]
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:24 - Jan 8 with 2509 views | macro |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:23 - Jan 8 by Thacks_Rabbits |
He was looked at but never taken by bigger clubs, Brum were watching him for ages and considered a move but all went wrong for a reason I dont fully know - but clearly he came here so was not in demand!!! |
Agree to disagree | | | |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:24 - Jan 8 with 2507 views | BeckWMG |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:21 - Jan 8 by AlexF |
I sincerely hope you're right, however he remains an ambitious guy, just like the top players always are... |
I agree but he can be that at Rochdale.
He's proved that he can take us within a whisker of the League 1 play offs. He'll want to go one better this time I feel. He owes us, and himself that.
But can't argue that your right, nothing's certain in football. | | | |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:26 - Jan 8 with 2495 views | 442Dale |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:23 - Jan 8 by sandylaner1 |
700£ grand is very good money yes but we need add ons and % of future fee clauses
posh seem to be trying it on with a lot of strikers, dale need to stay strong in whatever the 'snag' is during the negotiation [Post edited 8 Jan 2014 23:24]
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We can be pretty certain that whatever deals we do, the clauses in the contract will always be beneficial for years to come. We're probably better than any other club at our level for that. | |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:26 - Jan 8 with 2490 views | NotEyreClue |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:14 - Jan 8 by Toffeemanc |
This is the by far the best and most accurate comment on this thread.
Hogan still has a long way to go to turn into a top class player capable of playing first team football higher up the leagues. I don't doubt he has all the attributes to achieve it, but actually achieving it is another matter. Look at the situation Dawson has found himself in at WBA, we know he is good enough but how many first team games has he played since leaving Dale? His career has now become stagnant and potential sell on value is likely to be less now than we thought when we sold him due to his lack of first team football. Hogan could very easily find himself in the same situation if he leaves.
If Hogan is sold now we will be selling based on his future potential as a player, as his current achievements are based on a very short timescale in the lowest league and wouldn't command any reasonable fee. How do you put a price on what he may potentially become?
If the offer is anywhere around £300k and we can get good sell on clauses in the deal I expect he will leave. You have to remember we are basically selling the players potential and not the finished article and £300k + add ons could turn out to be a good deal for Dale if he doesn't make it at a higher level.
If he is sold at least we can count on Hillys track record to bring in a suitable replacement.
Remember 2009-2010 and Buckley being sold? At the time I was convinced it would cost us promotion but it didn't. We are not a one man team and personally I would be a lot more worried if it was Henderson or Lund who were the subject of this speculation.
Ultimately I trust Hill and Dunphy to do what is in the best interests of the club long term and will accept whatever that may be. |
I think Hogan would do well for Posh and it's different to the Dawson situation because Hogan is being pre-emptively signed due to the fact that Tomlin looks to be on his way out. Dawson was bought by West Brom as an English future first team star who might get the odd appearance here and there. Assuming Tomlin goes, I think Hogan would be expected to be a like for like replacement and would get thrown in at the deep end so to speak.
Of course, you could there's not much point discussing anything until we know anymore details. I'd be gutted for him to leave and if we did let him leave for anything under 500k with sell-ons then, in my opinion, the club would be doing the 'wrong' thing. |  |
| The modern pioneer of mealy mouthed bollocks. |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:32 - Jan 8 with 2433 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
I would guess they are going for potential and taking an element of a risk and have learnt cost of sell ons so trying to avoid them hence offer - cant see us playing ball with that - would not be suprised if Leeds dont make an offer very soon - who is to say we did not allow this to become public :) | |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:43 - Jan 8 with 2365 views | D_Alien |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:24 - Jan 8 by BeckWMG |
I agree but he can be that at Rochdale.
He's proved that he can take us within a whisker of the League 1 play offs. He'll want to go one better this time I feel. He owes us, and himself that.
But can't argue that your right, nothing's certain in football. |
My instincts on Hilly almost exactly - except he doesn't owe us anything.
Money isn't everything in life. As a player - yes, you've got to go where the money is. Your career could be over in the next tackle. But Hilly's salary will still be higher than probably 90% of what posters to this forum earn, so if he's happy he should consider his work/life balance and not consider moving on except for ridiculous money. |  |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 01:13 - Jan 9 with 2213 views | dingdangblue |
I really don't see the point of selling him so soon into his 1st pro contract. Whatever money Peterborough are offering - how much will he be worth if he puts Sheff Weds out of the cup, we draw a prem team in the 5th rnd and he scores against them, what if he ends up lge2 top scorer and gets us to Wembley? Its too soon to sell - for once in a lifetime the club needs to show some ambition. Do we really need the money now as opposed to at the end of the season? |  |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 01:24 - Jan 9 with 2208 views | love_the_dale |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 21:46 - Jan 8 by D_Dale |
Don't underestimate KH and the squad. Scott Hogan missed 4 games through injury: Newport (W 3-0), Cheltenham (W 1-2), Northampton (W 3-2) and D&R (L 3-1). Of course, I'd rather he stay, scores the 20+ goals we are hoping for, and then, perhaps, chooses which - bigger than Posh - club to move to. Presumably, if he's played for NW clubs, he's from within 25 miles of Dale, and would he - would anyone - want to relocate to Peterborough? |
I'm certainly not devaluing his contribution, but I had the same thoughts. We had a pretty good record when he was out injured. No-one is indispensable, and if we can a good sum of money, then happy if we have to sell, happy if he asks to go and all best wishes to him.
5th Oct Portsmouth A L 0 - 3 (Hogan playing)
8th Oct Port Vale A W 1 -0 Rafferty (JPT) (Hogan on the bench)
12th Oct Newport H W 3 - 0 Vincenti, Cummins, Héry (Hogan out injured)
19th Oct Cheltenham A W 2 - 1 Henderson (2) (Hogan out injured)
22th Oct Northampton H W 3 - 2 Henderson, Rose, Donnelly(Hogan out injured)
26th Oct Dag and Red A L 1 - 3 Dicker (Hogan out injured)
2nd Nov Wimbledon H L 1 - 2 Allen (Hogan out injured)
9th Nov Torquay A W 2 - 0 Hogan, Vincenti (FA Cup) (Hogan playing) |  | | |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 01:42 - Jan 9 with 2193 views | dingdangblue |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 23:14 - Jan 8 by Toffeemanc |
This is the by far the best and most accurate comment on this thread.
Hogan still has a long way to go to turn into a top class player capable of playing first team football higher up the leagues. I don't doubt he has all the attributes to achieve it, but actually achieving it is another matter. Look at the situation Dawson has found himself in at WBA, we know he is good enough but how many first team games has he played since leaving Dale? His career has now become stagnant and potential sell on value is likely to be less now than we thought when we sold him due to his lack of first team football. Hogan could very easily find himself in the same situation if he leaves.
If Hogan is sold now we will be selling based on his future potential as a player, as his current achievements are based on a very short timescale in the lowest league and wouldn't command any reasonable fee. How do you put a price on what he may potentially become?
If the offer is anywhere around £300k and we can get good sell on clauses in the deal I expect he will leave. You have to remember we are basically selling the players potential and not the finished article and £300k + add ons could turn out to be a good deal for Dale if he doesn't make it at a higher level.
If he is sold at least we can count on Hillys track record to bring in a suitable replacement.
Remember 2009-2010 and Buckley being sold? At the time I was convinced it would cost us promotion but it didn't. We are not a one man team and personally I would be a lot more worried if it was Henderson or Lund who were the subject of this speculation.
Ultimately I trust Hill and Dunphy to do what is in the best interests of the club long term and will accept whatever that may be. |
No selling Buckley didn't cost us promotion but Hilly has always stated how angry he was when we sold Glenn Murray in the Jan of our Centenary Season - yes we got to the play off final but Hill believes selling Murray cost us promotion. | |
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| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 06:12 - Jan 9 with 2122 views | ColDale |
Can only try and put myself into the head of Hilly on this.
Thanks to the Cup run, we are doing better than expected financially - not brilliantly, but enough for us to be able to make decisions for footballing reasons. This isn't like where we had to sell Alfie due to a tax bill, or when we had to sell Murray due to a series of postponements.
Hill will be given the final decision on this (we daren't risk doing anything else) and his thoughts will be, will this deal allow us to make the team a better team and help us in the long term?
If it happens, I'd expect an immediate return of Chris Dagnall as replacement with a sizeable amount of cash in the bank which will allow us to reinvest in the playing squad. It's quite possible that there is half an eye on putting together a competitive squad for League One. It should certainly allow a couple of signings for the remainder of this year (Daggers plus one other) and then significant funds in the budget for the next campaign.
If the deal's not a good one, then we say no. Simple as that.
BTW what ever happened to Kevin Townson? |  | | |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 07:25 - Jan 9 with 2034 views | aleanddale |
Wow - This exploded overnight - obviously no smoke without fire.
For a change we hold the cards.... We dont know any facts and the vast majotity is speculation. One thing for sure Hogan is a bright young thing and he has 2 major defining assets.
1. Pace
2. He knows where the back of the net is
to buy 1+2 does not come cheap and i just hope the board hold out to get the VERY best deal that is available.
I am also sure if we had not sold Holt Lambert Murray ALF Buckley Perkins Done COG etc etc there is a strong chance we would now be lower not higher in the football pyramid.
evolution not revolution. Its what we need to do and it will not change even if we doubled our home support to 5000.
Lets see how this pans out and as before if Hill Dunphy and Hogan himself are happy with the deal we need to trust. | | | |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 07:32 - Jan 9 with 2018 views | TalkingSutty |
| Peterborough bid for Hogan on 06:12 - Jan 9 by ColDale |
Can only try and put myself into the head of Hilly on this.
Thanks to the Cup run, we are doing better than expected financially - not brilliantly, but enough for us to be able to make decisions for footballing reasons. This isn't like where we had to sell Alfie due to a tax bill, or when we had to sell Murray due to a series of postponements.
Hill will be given the final decision on this (we daren't risk doing anything else) and his thoughts will be, will this deal allow us to make the team a better team and help us in the long term?
If it happens, I'd expect an immediate return of Chris Dagnall as replacement with a sizeable amount of cash in the bank which will allow us to reinvest in the playing squad. It's quite possible that there is half an eye on putting together a competitive squad for League One. It should certainly allow a couple of signings for the remainder of this year (Daggers plus one other) and then significant funds in the budget for the next campaign.
If the deal's not a good one, then we say no. Simple as that.
BTW what ever happened to Kevin Townson? |
That's how I see it, I would love to see Dagnall back at the club but not sure how he would feel about that and the extra money to improve the squad might be the direction Hilly wants to go. The fans who are suggesting we should hold on to Hogan no matter what miss a very important point, If Hogans wages are being doubled or probably trebbled and he wants to go what should the club do then? Forcing a player to stay means we gamble with the players form and desire and in the end the final transfer fee, it's not even an option once the player makes his mind up. | | | |
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