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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:16 - May 21 by QPRDave
So i can be called all sorts of names but can't answer back eh?
Stuff your site up your arse you big headed big gobbed w a n k e r Just cause some f*cker gives you the cringey title "supporter of the year" you think you're something else, and no one can disagree with you. Why not go and polish your cup.......LOL after all you should keep it shiny after crying on here about not receiving a cup you sad t**t... http://media.photobucket.com/user/xaldinx/media/middle-finger.jpg.html?filters[t finger&filters[primary]=images&filters[secondary]=videos&sort=1&o=8
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
Oh Dear!!!
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:28 - May 21 with 2348 views
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 16:30 - May 21 by Rangersw12
The people who sadly died are completely blameless and were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
However having read the report I still cannot see how the other Scousers are completely blameless it seems to me the report has gone too much the other way
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
Lets say for the sake of argument the Leppings Lane end held 3000 people.
Even if only all 3000 people who had tickets (i.e. no forgeries, no one blagging in) turned up, if 250 are in each of the end pens and 2500 in the middle two pens then suffice to say those two middle pens will be over capacity and crushing will occur. The Leppings Lane terrace wasn't like the lower loft wich was open across it's full width.
This, I'm sure is what happened. Even Motty on the BBC TV commentary couldn't understand why the two end pens had loads of spaces yet the middle ones were bursting at the seams. This was on last nights TV programme.
The Police had simply and probably unwittingly directed loads of people to the two midle pens. However, they should have known better and been better prepared. The top Police guys running it were way out of their depth. It was Chief Constable Duckenfields first football game in charge I believe.
If so, why was such a high profile game entrusted to someone who had no experience?
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:44 - May 21 with 2316 views
I worked with a Spurs fan who said it nearly happened to them at Hillsborough the year before, it was a disaster waiting to happen, what is not disputed was those 96 victims were innocent. Visiting my parents grave in Greenford there is a grave of one of the Hillsborough victims, presume it must be young McCarthy mentioned by A40Bosh. God Bless them all
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:53 - May 21 with 2287 views
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:28 - May 21 by Juzzie
Lets say for the sake of argument the Leppings Lane end held 3000 people.
Even if only all 3000 people who had tickets (i.e. no forgeries, no one blagging in) turned up, if 250 are in each of the end pens and 2500 in the middle two pens then suffice to say those two middle pens will be over capacity and crushing will occur. The Leppings Lane terrace wasn't like the lower loft wich was open across it's full width.
This, I'm sure is what happened. Even Motty on the BBC TV commentary couldn't understand why the two end pens had loads of spaces yet the middle ones were bursting at the seams. This was on last nights TV programme.
The Police had simply and probably unwittingly directed loads of people to the two midle pens. However, they should have known better and been better prepared. The top Police guys running it were way out of their depth. It was Chief Constable Duckenfields first football game in charge I believe.
If so, why was such a high profile game entrusted to someone who had no experience?
i agree the authorities really screwed up and do what they normally do and close ranks that stadium was just not cut out for those sort of games especially leppings lane if you look back to the semis in 81,87 & 88 before hand you can see this was waiting to happen it was just a matter of when I also admire the families for taking on the governments and old bill the likes of thatcher,blair,straw,duckenfield are filth and deserve what they get However I do believe a fraction of the fans didn't help matters by turning up without tickets, look back to previous finals & semis they were involved in it used to happen, (also they tried it at the Athens final by storming the gates) those who went in the 80's will agree that Liverpool were kings of Gibbing in to grounds, its what they did (not saying they deserved to die BTW) I also agree that my point yesterday about Heseyl was Bang out of order and if I have offended anyone then I will hold my hand up and apologise
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:55 - May 21 with 2293 views
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:53 - May 21 by paulparker
i agree the authorities really screwed up and do what they normally do and close ranks that stadium was just not cut out for those sort of games especially leppings lane if you look back to the semis in 81,87 & 88 before hand you can see this was waiting to happen it was just a matter of when I also admire the families for taking on the governments and old bill the likes of thatcher,blair,straw,duckenfield are filth and deserve what they get However I do believe a fraction of the fans didn't help matters by turning up without tickets, look back to previous finals & semis they were involved in it used to happen, (also they tried it at the Athens final by storming the gates) those who went in the 80's will agree that Liverpool were kings of Gibbing in to grounds, its what they did (not saying they deserved to die BTW) I also agree that my point yesterday about Heseyl was Bang out of order and if I have offended anyone then I will hold my hand up and apologise
"I also agree that my point yesterday about Heseyl was Bang out of order and if I have offended anyone then I will hold my hand up and apologise"
Fair play, pp. You didn't offend me anyway for what that's worth, I could see what you were trying to get at, and that it was well-intentioned.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:00 - May 21 by SonofNorfolt
That's true about Luton v Millwall, ask anyone who was there.
Whatever happened at the ground, when I lived just outside Luton I saw pretty diabolical behaviour by Milwall fans rampaging through the shopping centre when their team was in town. I went to a Milwall / Luton game once and the emphasis was on the battle between the fans rather than the football. I will not go to another game where Milwall are playing until they make a real effort to eliminate the minority of their fans who seem to think football is an excuse to act like thugs.
I like Danny Baker, but if he denies the problem still exists at Milwall he is deluding himself, although I think he has condemmed it in the past. Real action should be taken, as I expect it would be at QPR, to identify the culprits and deal with them. I realise its more difficult for clubs now as, since the advent of CCTV at grounds, most of the 'action' these idiots revel in takes place outside.
Who's Next?
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 18:16 - May 21 with 2247 views
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:53 - May 21 by paulparker
i agree the authorities really screwed up and do what they normally do and close ranks that stadium was just not cut out for those sort of games especially leppings lane if you look back to the semis in 81,87 & 88 before hand you can see this was waiting to happen it was just a matter of when I also admire the families for taking on the governments and old bill the likes of thatcher,blair,straw,duckenfield are filth and deserve what they get However I do believe a fraction of the fans didn't help matters by turning up without tickets, look back to previous finals & semis they were involved in it used to happen, (also they tried it at the Athens final by storming the gates) those who went in the 80's will agree that Liverpool were kings of Gibbing in to grounds, its what they did (not saying they deserved to die BTW) I also agree that my point yesterday about Heseyl was Bang out of order and if I have offended anyone then I will hold my hand up and apologise
The things is though, we'll never know. As far Liverpools past history plus Athens, that's just putting 2+2 and getting 5, it's speculation based on reputation. Heysel and Hillsborugh are not linked, just a horrific co-incidence but those trying to cover it up used it, amongst other things, to do just that.
I don't recall anyone saying that Liverpool fans arrived en masse without tickets. Sure, maybe a few did but it would take huge numbers in order for it to have that much of an effect.
We witnessed this ourselves when West Ham had too many for the FA Cup game at Loftus Road which WAS attributed to forgeries. When the turnstiles hit certain numbers, the gates should have been closed but people were allowed in simply becuase they had what looked like valid tickets. Had we had fences, it could have been a Hillsborough MKII.
This shows, to me anyway, that organisation at football was appalling simply because everyone was tarred with the same brush and treated like cattle with no consideration for our safety.
For a game up at Luton, my brother and I took the train up there. We were herded to the ground by the Police along a different route than I remember being taken before and it took us alongside a multistorey car park which was a perfect ambush for Luton fans to thrown things down at us.
Then one day at Southampton (the 5-1 opening day game I think) I was walking with all the QPR fans back to the train station simply because I was being picked up by a friend in the station car park. As I moved out of the crowd and walked up some steps to the car park, a big burly copper said "where do you think you're going" (remember, it's a public place, I have the right to go where I pelase). I explained I was meeting a friend in the car park and he said "no you're not" and LITERALLY pushed me down the stairs.
My crime on both occasions? Being a football fan who minded his own business.
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 18:43 - May 21 with 2205 views
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 18:16 - May 21 by Juzzie
The things is though, we'll never know. As far Liverpools past history plus Athens, that's just putting 2+2 and getting 5, it's speculation based on reputation. Heysel and Hillsborugh are not linked, just a horrific co-incidence but those trying to cover it up used it, amongst other things, to do just that.
I don't recall anyone saying that Liverpool fans arrived en masse without tickets. Sure, maybe a few did but it would take huge numbers in order for it to have that much of an effect.
We witnessed this ourselves when West Ham had too many for the FA Cup game at Loftus Road which WAS attributed to forgeries. When the turnstiles hit certain numbers, the gates should have been closed but people were allowed in simply becuase they had what looked like valid tickets. Had we had fences, it could have been a Hillsborough MKII.
This shows, to me anyway, that organisation at football was appalling simply because everyone was tarred with the same brush and treated like cattle with no consideration for our safety.
For a game up at Luton, my brother and I took the train up there. We were herded to the ground by the Police along a different route than I remember being taken before and it took us alongside a multistorey car park which was a perfect ambush for Luton fans to thrown things down at us.
Then one day at Southampton (the 5-1 opening day game I think) I was walking with all the QPR fans back to the train station simply because I was being picked up by a friend in the station car park. As I moved out of the crowd and walked up some steps to the car park, a big burly copper said "where do you think you're going" (remember, it's a public place, I have the right to go where I pelase). I explained I was meeting a friend in the car park and he said "no you're not" and LITERALLY pushed me down the stairs.
My crime on both occasions? Being a football fan who minded his own business.
Your right Juzzie we will never know, im not saying thousands upon thousands of scousers turned up without tickets and stormed the gates , but going back to those times lots of clubs did it for the big games ie, Leeds, Millwall, West Ham, Liverpool did it more often than not and that can't be denied organisation was terrible in those days still is to this day in some cases us having to travel to Millwall being one of them I was also at that West Ham Game and take your point about the forgeries we were lucky that uncle Jim had built us a modern stadium otherwise that could have turned nasty
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:16 - May 21 by QPRDave
So i can be called all sorts of names but can't answer back eh?
Stuff your site up your arse you big headed big gobbed w a n k e r Just cause some f*cker gives you the cringey title "supporter of the year" you think you're something else, and no one can disagree with you. Why not go and polish your cup.......LOL after all you should keep it shiny after crying on here about not receiving a cup you sad t**t... http://media.photobucket.com/user/xaldinx/media/middle-finger.jpg.html?filters[t finger&filters[primary]=images&filters[secondary]=videos&sort=1&o=8
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
Hubris is the word you are looking for
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 20:09 - May 21 with 2149 views
It's a national disgrace it's been an issue for nigh on a quater of a century. Several things stoood out for me. Firstly the likes of Deer (Won't call him Lord) basically denying to this day any wrongdoing on the behalf of himself and Taylor etc. 2 - Police and people running the show that day briefing as early as 10 past three via BBC and Motson to pass the blame to Liverpool fans - this shows the police, Sheff Wed, match day commisioners whoever were already in full swing of cover up over and above ensuring causalties were minimised.
Why have Duckenfield, Bettison, Wright and co facuing corperate mansluaghter charges. If South Yorks were a private comapny the directors would probably have done time by now.
Disgraceful in the extreme and a reminder to all of us not to rely on those who are supposedly their to protect us, or even their rank and file number who also had lives and careers destroyed by Hillsborough.
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 20:18 - May 21 with 2129 views
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 20:09 - May 21 by TGRRRSSS
It's a national disgrace it's been an issue for nigh on a quater of a century. Several things stoood out for me. Firstly the likes of Deer (Won't call him Lord) basically denying to this day any wrongdoing on the behalf of himself and Taylor etc. 2 - Police and people running the show that day briefing as early as 10 past three via BBC and Motson to pass the blame to Liverpool fans - this shows the police, Sheff Wed, match day commisioners whoever were already in full swing of cover up over and above ensuring causalties were minimised.
Why have Duckenfield, Bettison, Wright and co facuing corperate mansluaghter charges. If South Yorks were a private comapny the directors would probably have done time by now.
Disgraceful in the extreme and a reminder to all of us not to rely on those who are supposedly their to protect us, or even their rank and file number who also had lives and careers destroyed by Hillsborough.
Old Bill will always close ranks, just ask the family of Ian Tomlinson
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 20:36 - May 21 with 2114 views
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:16 - May 21 by QPRDave
So i can be called all sorts of names but can't answer back eh?
Stuff your site up your arse you big headed big gobbed w a n k e r Just cause some f*cker gives you the cringey title "supporter of the year" you think you're something else, and no one can disagree with you. Why not go and polish your cup.......LOL after all you should keep it shiny after crying on here about not receiving a cup you sad t**t... http://media.photobucket.com/user/xaldinx/media/middle-finger.jpg.html?filters[t finger&filters[primary]=images&filters[secondary]=videos&sort=1&o=8
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 21:02 - May 21 with 2087 views
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:44 - May 21 by batmanhoop
I worked with a Spurs fan who said it nearly happened to them at Hillsborough the year before, it was a disaster waiting to happen, what is not disputed was those 96 victims were innocent. Visiting my parents grave in Greenford there is a grave of one of the Hillsborough victims, presume it must be young McCarthy mentioned by A40Bosh. God Bless them all
The year before oddly Liverpool played Forest at Hillsborough and Wimbledon played Luton at White Hart Lane.
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 21:35 - May 21 with 2067 views
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 17:16 - May 21 by QPRDave
So i can be called all sorts of names but can't answer back eh?
Stuff your site up your arse you big headed big gobbed w a n k e r Just cause some f*cker gives you the cringey title "supporter of the year" you think you're something else, and no one can disagree with you. Why not go and polish your cup.......LOL after all you should keep it shiny after crying on here about not receiving a cup you sad t**t... http://media.photobucket.com/user/xaldinx/media/middle-finger.jpg.html?filters[t finger&filters[primary]=images&filters[secondary]=videos&sort=1&o=8
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
Well that's a nice mature reply! Seeing as its Clive site then he can decide what's acceptable and what's not, you made yourself sound like a 13 year old keyboard warrior with that post.
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
All the Liverpool people were very, very impressive people.
The top echelons of the police were supremely confident, powerful men, who seemed almost amused that anyone would question their past decisions.
The mass doctoring of statements of rank and file police officers was a frame-up on an industrial scale (designed to hide the failure to direct the fans into the side pens).
Very interesting about how British justice functions. The South Yorkshire police had devised a crude strategy to frame the fans. Lord Justice Taylor realised that wasn't realistic (this isn't Iraq after all), so negotiated a more sophisticated outcome with Geoffrey Dear (Chief Constable of West Midlands Police who was supposed to be investigating The South Yorkshire police): 'I suppose you realise that to give this inquiry any credibility we have to apportion the majority of the blame on the police?' The deal seemed to be that the police would be blamed, but there would be no prosecutions.
My thoughts about the context of this event...
As some have pointed out, Hillsborough occurred in the middle of a panic about football hooliganism. It also occurred eight years after the race riots in Brixton, four years after the Miner's Strike, two years after the police had raided the BBC offices in Scotland, and while the war in Ireland was still going on. In that context of 'enemies within', it's not surprising that the police, as the enforcement wing of the state, would be allowed to close ranks and be untouchable.
Air hostess clique
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 22:32 - May 21 with 2000 views
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 22:13 - May 21 by TacticalR
Some things I got from the documentary...
All the Liverpool people were very, very impressive people.
The top echelons of the police were supremely confident, powerful men, who seemed almost amused that anyone would question their past decisions.
The mass doctoring of statements of rank and file police officers was a frame-up on an industrial scale (designed to hide the failure to direct the fans into the side pens).
Very interesting about how British justice functions. The South Yorkshire police had devised a crude strategy to frame the fans. Lord Justice Taylor realised that wasn't realistic (this isn't Iraq after all), so negotiated a more sophisticated outcome with Geoffrey Dear (Chief Constable of West Midlands Police who was supposed to be investigating The South Yorkshire police): 'I suppose you realise that to give this inquiry any credibility we have to apportion the majority of the blame on the police?' The deal seemed to be that the police would be blamed, but there would be no prosecutions.
My thoughts about the context of this event...
As some have pointed out, Hillsborough occurred in the middle of a panic about football hooliganism. It also occurred eight years after the race riots in Brixton, four years after the Miner's Strike, two years after the police had raided the BBC offices in Scotland, and while the war in Ireland was still going on. In that context of 'enemies within', it's not surprising that the police, as the enforcement wing of the state, would be allowed to close ranks and be untouchable.
All institutions close ranks against outside criticism...just from the last year we've had examples of the same from the BBC, the Catholic Church, Staffordshire NHS, and the Socialist Workers Party!
Someone further up mentioned the rentagob Pete Wylie. Granted the man is an embarrassment, but "Nah Poo The Art of Bluff", despite the appalling title, is one of the most ferocious and exciting debut albums ever! It's so out of kilter with the rest of his output it's as if he paid someone else to make it for him.
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 22:41 - May 21 with 1985 views
The Justice for the 96 campaign should be admired for their persistence. As a result of their efforts, the vast majority have come to accept that, although there were multiple contributory factors, the main cause was the failure of the Police. I hope the new Coroner's hearing helps everybody to draw a line under the tragedy and acknowledge the lessons to be learnt.
I guess there will always be some, including some on this thread, who will take an alternative view. In the light of all the evidence, they are more to be pitied than criticised.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 23:37 - May 21 with 1937 views
Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 22:41 - May 21 by derbyhoop
The Justice for the 96 campaign should be admired for their persistence. As a result of their efforts, the vast majority have come to accept that, although there were multiple contributory factors, the main cause was the failure of the Police. I hope the new Coroner's hearing helps everybody to draw a line under the tragedy and acknowledge the lessons to be learnt.
I guess there will always be some, including some on this thread, who will take an alternative view. In the light of all the evidence, they are more to be pitied than criticised.
Echo that Derby. Pleased for the families.
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 06:26 - May 22 with 1892 views
Hillsborough makes an interesting television programme and I expect there will be plenty more of them in the next decades but the Panorama programme did not tell us anything new.
The Taylor Reports of 1989 and 1990 put the blame squarely where deserved on police incompetence and negligence, and also on Sheffield City Council and the club for the increasingly dangerous layout and condition of the stadium. Taylor had no truck with the theories that drunk fans or late arriving ticketless fans determined to break into the ground had played an important part in the disaster. In my opinion Taylor deliberately ducked some questions about the Liverpool fans behaviour in order not to deflect from the thrust of his conclusions about police incompetence.
All the hot air generated in recent years has established two main points which were never in much doubt. Firstly that the coroner was wrong to apply a 3.15 cut-off and this hid the extent of the emergency services failure and the possibility that some of the victims might still have been saved. Secondly that senior police went to some lengths to try to cover the backs of individual senior officers and S.Yorks Police in general. In the event this was largely ineffective because police failings were blatantly obvious to Taylor.
There is no doubt that the stadium and the police negligence/incompetence set up a disaster waiting to happen. But neither a badly designed stadium nor negligent policing crush people by themselves. I don't know whether another club's fans in the Leppings Lane End would have led to that level of tragedy. One of the intriguing things about Hillsborough is that we never get to hear from the 'lucky' ones who had the choice between going to one of the half empty corner pens or adding their weight to the crush in the tunnel. Hillsborough is riddled with guilt of all sorts.
Back in the 80s the public's priority and therefore the police's priority was to protect the public and property from football supporters. The safety of football supporters was further down the priorities. In the 60s, 70s and 80s you looked after your own safety. To judge events of the 80s by the standards and attitudes of 2013 is an interesting exercise but it teaches us nothing. All the lessons were learned and applied long ago.
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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Watching the Hilsboro programme, BBC1 on 12:19 - May 22 with 1815 views
Apart from it being worthwhile to have a programme that summed up the entire atrocity in one hour, I was glad to learn two additional things from the programme:-
1) The actual extent of the falsifying of evidence, and
2) that there was CCTV coverage that showed the Liverpool fans didn't run or storm towards the centre pen.
As someone who wrote about Hillsborough at the time for AKUTR's and elsewhere I was delighted to find out both of these. It confirmed what we'd suspected all along.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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