| Doctors strike. 19:04 - Dec 21 with 5485 views | Gwyn737 |
Can’t imagine why they’re feeling undervalued…
The Health Secretary 🙄 |  | | |  |
| Doctors strike. on 21:02 - Dec 23 with 1679 views | AnotherJohn |
| Doctors strike. on 19:32 - Dec 23 by Scotia |
Yes factually wrong.
The minister said "Doctors in training" they're fully qualified doctors who are training in a speciality until they become a consultant or GP. She didn't say that she prefers to call them "Doctors in training to be a specialist".
Anyway, it's a shocking thing for a health minister to say. |
You have a strange understanding of the English language if according to your version a doctor waiting to receive a "Certificate of Completion of Training" has not been employed in the training grades. Yes, you may say this involves speciality training, but all doctors in the UK need to go through that to move into a long term medical career, even if they opt for general practice.
These misunderstandings happen when you rely on a Twitter/X post by a luvvy rather than asking somebody who knows. Mr Pegg should have stuck to playing Hamlet. I do not dispute that Atkins behaved in a ham-fisted way, and as a former criminal barrister she may well be a little hazy in her own understanding of the medical grading system. [Post edited 23 Dec 2023 21:03]
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| Doctors strike. on 21:48 - Dec 23 with 1646 views | Scotia |
| Doctors strike. on 21:02 - Dec 23 by AnotherJohn |
You have a strange understanding of the English language if according to your version a doctor waiting to receive a "Certificate of Completion of Training" has not been employed in the training grades. Yes, you may say this involves speciality training, but all doctors in the UK need to go through that to move into a long term medical career, even if they opt for general practice.
These misunderstandings happen when you rely on a Twitter/X post by a luvvy rather than asking somebody who knows. Mr Pegg should have stuck to playing Hamlet. I do not dispute that Atkins behaved in a ham-fisted way, and as a former criminal barrister she may well be a little hazy in her own understanding of the medical grading system. [Post edited 23 Dec 2023 21:03]
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It's not a question of my understanding of the English language, it's a question of what the minister said. The certificate you refer to isn't a certificate to be a qualified doctor. They're already a fully qualified doctor. That part of their training is done.
The minister said she referred to them as "doctors in training" and they're not. They're doctors in training to be even better doctors.
I assume it was a deliberately condescending comment. I can't, for the life of me, understand what she thinks she'll gain from making it.
This is the only social media I use. | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 23:18 - Dec 23 with 1626 views | AnotherJohn |
| Doctors strike. on 21:48 - Dec 23 by Scotia |
It's not a question of my understanding of the English language, it's a question of what the minister said. The certificate you refer to isn't a certificate to be a qualified doctor. They're already a fully qualified doctor. That part of their training is done.
The minister said she referred to them as "doctors in training" and they're not. They're doctors in training to be even better doctors.
I assume it was a deliberately condescending comment. I can't, for the life of me, understand what she thinks she'll gain from making it.
This is the only social media I use. |
There is, of course, a difference between a medical student training to be a doctor and a doctor in training. I think I will leave it there. At least we can agree that Victoria Atkins did not cover herself in glory by saying something that was not going to be well received. | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 12:09 - Jan 5 with 1499 views | Gwyn737 |
GMB this morning:
"35% increase in a cost of living crisis sounds unreasonable, but for a first year post grad qualified doctor, that's an increase from £15 an hour to £21 and hour."
Sainsbury's has announced pay rises to a minimum for employees outside London to £12 an hour, with wages for staff in the capital increasing to £13.15 an hour | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 09:44 - Jan 6 with 1431 views | controversial_jack |
| Doctors strike. on 12:09 - Jan 5 by Gwyn737 |
GMB this morning:
"35% increase in a cost of living crisis sounds unreasonable, but for a first year post grad qualified doctor, that's an increase from £15 an hour to £21 and hour."
Sainsbury's has announced pay rises to a minimum for employees outside London to £12 an hour, with wages for staff in the capital increasing to £13.15 an hour |
The difference being, one is a private for profit company, and the other is funded by taxpayer money. I'm not saying they don't deserve it, but so do many other in the NHS, like nurses and health care assistants etc | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 10:18 - Jan 6 with 1427 views | Gwyn737 |
| Doctors strike. on 09:44 - Jan 6 by controversial_jack |
The difference being, one is a private for profit company, and the other is funded by taxpayer money. I'm not saying they don't deserve it, but so do many other in the NHS, like nurses and health care assistants etc |
Absolutely.
Particularly for the care sector as they’re the ones who are moving into retail. | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 11:12 - Jan 6 with 1407 views | felixstowe_jack |
An 8.8% pay offer plus more for lower paid doctors plus and additional 3.3% seems a very good offer.
The striking doctors keep saying that patients safety is their first priority. Clearly not true it is all about more money not patients. | |
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| Doctors strike. on 13:37 - Jan 6 with 1393 views | Gwyn737 |
| Doctors strike. on 11:12 - Jan 6 by felixstowe_jack |
An 8.8% pay offer plus more for lower paid doctors plus and additional 3.3% seems a very good offer.
The striking doctors keep saying that patients safety is their first priority. Clearly not true it is all about more money not patients. |
Any strike is going to affect service. Unfortunately this one is going to affect lives which is incredibly sad.
However the point of all these public sector strikes are to secure a good service long term. NHS doctors want to be able to recruit and retain great candidates which will improve care over time so yes, it very much is about patients.
Same argument for the recent nurses, teachers and firefighters strikes.
If someone’s position is we can’t afford these pay rises then of course, that’s their prerogative. But as we can see that leaves three outcomes:
1. Poor or a lost service.
2. Mass immigration to fill roles
3. A big welfare bill | | | |
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| Doctors strike. on 13:58 - Jan 6 with 1383 views | Whiterockin |
| Doctors strike. on 13:37 - Jan 6 by Gwyn737 |
Any strike is going to affect service. Unfortunately this one is going to affect lives which is incredibly sad.
However the point of all these public sector strikes are to secure a good service long term. NHS doctors want to be able to recruit and retain great candidates which will improve care over time so yes, it very much is about patients.
Same argument for the recent nurses, teachers and firefighters strikes.
If someone’s position is we can’t afford these pay rises then of course, that’s their prerogative. But as we can see that leaves three outcomes:
1. Poor or a lost service.
2. Mass immigration to fill roles
3. A big welfare bill |
Gwyn one of the major factors when the NHS is short staffed are the agency fees that are paid to cover much of the shortfall. Its not as straightforward forward as any pay increase automatically being added to the total NHS wage bill. If it encourages more staff to remain and others to work in the sector full time it could go a long way to reducing costs. |  | | |
| Doctors strike. on 14:21 - Jan 6 with 1367 views | Gwyn737 |
| Doctors strike. on 13:58 - Jan 6 by Whiterockin |
Gwyn one of the major factors when the NHS is short staffed are the agency fees that are paid to cover much of the shortfall. Its not as straightforward forward as any pay increase automatically being added to the total NHS wage bill. If it encourages more staff to remain and others to work in the sector full time it could go a long way to reducing costs. |
That would make an excellent point 4 👍
Wouldn’t need to spend a fortune on agency fees if we were able to recruit and retain well enough.
It’s exactly the same in schools where there are huge shortages in particular subjects and supply agencies are making money hand over fist. | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 22:11 - Jan 6 with 1295 views | controversial_jack |
| Doctors strike. on 10:18 - Jan 6 by Gwyn737 |
Absolutely.
Particularly for the care sector as they’re the ones who are moving into retail. |
I meant the health care support workers directly employed by the NHS - the ones in green. They are low paid - just above min wage | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 09:28 - Jan 7 with 1248 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Doctors strike. on 14:21 - Jan 6 by Gwyn737 |
That would make an excellent point 4 👍
Wouldn’t need to spend a fortune on agency fees if we were able to recruit and retain well enough.
It’s exactly the same in schools where there are huge shortages in particular subjects and supply agencies are making money hand over fist. |
Why would doctors and nurse work for the NHS when they earn 2 to 3 times as much. They can also pick their own hours.
They like the stiking staff, long ago stopped putting patients first .
The BMA have always been an anti NHS union. | |
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| Doctors strike. on 10:27 - Jan 7 with 1233 views | Gwyn737 |
| Doctors strike. on 09:28 - Jan 7 by felixstowe_jack |
Why would doctors and nurse work for the NHS when they earn 2 to 3 times as much. They can also pick their own hours.
They like the stiking staff, long ago stopped putting patients first .
The BMA have always been an anti NHS union. |
That’s your position and of course that’s fine.
It’s means no NHS then, doesn’t it?
I’m all for reform but it needs to be long term, cross party and planned.
In the meantime it would be sensible to pay the staff to keep the service while much needed changes are made. | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 10:34 - Jan 7 with 1226 views | controversial_jack |
| Doctors strike. on 09:28 - Jan 7 by felixstowe_jack |
Why would doctors and nurse work for the NHS when they earn 2 to 3 times as much. They can also pick their own hours.
They like the stiking staff, long ago stopped putting patients first .
The BMA have always been an anti NHS union. |
The NHS trains them up, and then many leave for what they believe is better in Australia.
Many nurses and support workers actually go in to help the others out. | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 10:55 - Jan 7 with 1219 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Doctors strike. on 10:34 - Jan 7 by controversial_jack |
The NHS trains them up, and then many leave for what they believe is better in Australia.
Many nurses and support workers actually go in to help the others out. |
Correct a few go to Australia every year and the numbers are the same as they were 10years ago.
Perhaps doctors and nurses who are trained by the UK taxpayers should only be allowed to work for the NHS for the first ten years. | |
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| Doctors strike. (n/t) on 13:20 - Jan 7 with 1187 views | controversial_jack |
| Doctors strike. on 10:55 - Jan 7 by felixstowe_jack |
Correct a few go to Australia every year and the numbers are the same as they were 10years ago.
Perhaps doctors and nurses who are trained by the UK taxpayers should only be allowed to work for the NHS for the first ten years. |
[Post edited 7 Jan 13:21]
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| Doctors strike. on 13:20 - Jan 7 with 1187 views | controversial_jack |
| Doctors strike. on 10:55 - Jan 7 by felixstowe_jack |
Correct a few go to Australia every year and the numbers are the same as they were 10years ago.
Perhaps doctors and nurses who are trained by the UK taxpayers should only be allowed to work for the NHS for the first ten years. |
You can't really make a contract that stipulates that. It would be indentured servitude. Certainly not in a free capitalist market | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 13:52 - Jan 7 with 1166 views | Whiterockin |
| Doctors strike. on 13:20 - Jan 7 by controversial_jack |
You can't really make a contract that stipulates that. It would be indentured servitude. Certainly not in a free capitalist market |
Possibly any training bursary could need to be repaid if a lag on wasn't reached.You could certainly improve the increments to make long term employment more attractive. | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 14:00 - Jan 7 with 1154 views | Gwyn737 |
| Doctors strike. on 10:55 - Jan 7 by felixstowe_jack |
Correct a few go to Australia every year and the numbers are the same as they were 10years ago.
Perhaps doctors and nurses who are trained by the UK taxpayers should only be allowed to work for the NHS for the first ten years. |
A good mantra for staffing a successful organisation is training staff so their good enough to leave but treat then well enough that they don’t want to.
This includes paying them their market value. | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 14:28 - Jan 7 with 1136 views | JumpingJackFlash |
Nurses who train in Wales and receive a bursary agree to spend their first two years after qualification in NHS Wales.
If they don’t they return the bursary. | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 14:36 - Jan 7 with 1126 views | waynekerr55 |
| Doctors strike. on 13:20 - Jan 7 by controversial_jack |
You can't really make a contract that stipulates that. It would be indentured servitude. Certainly not in a free capitalist market |
I think this issue is worthy of discussion; taxpayers do spend a heck of a lot training doctors who then leave to love abroad. How you implement that in a capitalist society is far from easy as you say |  |
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| Doctors strike. on 15:00 - Jan 7 with 1100 views | Whiterockin |
| Doctors strike. on 14:36 - Jan 7 by waynekerr55 |
I think this issue is worthy of discussion; taxpayers do spend a heck of a lot training doctors who then leave to love abroad. How you implement that in a capitalist society is far from easy as you say |
Other countries train doctors who come to the UK, it works both ways. A bit of info on the subject.
https://smartmove2uk.com/uk-immigration-route-for-indian-doctors/ | | | |
| Doctors strike. on 20:18 - Jan 7 with 1045 views | AnotherJohn |
If it were left to me I'd offer the junior doctors around an extra 3 per cent plus a review for future years, but I am becoming increasingly worried that striking over pay is eroding the ethic of public service, The £32,398 often quoted is for Foundation Year 1 when the newly-qualified medical graduates are interns who only have provisional (not full) GMC registration. So arguably FY2, when they are getting £37,392, is their first year as registered doctors. Once they progress through Foundation Year 2 and get to Specialty Trainee 1 grade they are on £43,923 p.a. and the situation then improves every year until those who stay in training to ST6 level receive £63,152.
https://www.bma.org.uk/media/7509/pay-and-conditions-circular-md-4-2023-final_0.
As this document shows, there are additional payments for on-call and weekend duties as well as special circumstances.
Thereafter, as a consultant or a GP, these doctors' salary rises to significantly higher levels. In many cases the NHS salary will be augmented by private practice.
It might be supposed that, after all the trouble with the Tories. the juniors will be waiting eagerly for the likely Labour victory later this year. However, until recently the very high salaries that senior doctors command brought a complication in the shape of the pensions life time allowance. Last year the present government abolished the LTA, but Labour has stated it will reinstate this at the old level. When it was still in place the LTA is said to have encouraged many consultants and GPs to retire early (once they had a reasonable pension pot), because any withdrawals from pots that exceeded £1.07 million would be taxed at 55%. No doubt that will again become an issue if the LTA comes back. So I'd say the juniors deserve a bit more, but still have lucrative careers ahead of them. Did somebody say they wouldn't be able to afford a house? I don't know many in that category after training. [Post edited 8 Jan 7:38]
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