| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich 13:02 - Feb 14 with 118196 views | loftboy |
Should the worst happen and the Russians invade, I suspect that many rich Russians in the UK will be part of the proposed sanctions, could this affect our foes down the road? |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:33 - Feb 24 with 3118 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:13 - Feb 24 by Match82 |
Seemed to work out OK with him with Crimea.
This war started in 2014 when the world just turned a blind eye to that. |
Crimea was a different story altogether. Russian troops were already in Crimea as they had leased their bases there from the Ukrainians, so there was no 'invasion.' Furthermore, in an election on whether they wanted reintegration with Russia the autonomous region voted 97% in favour of. Worth remembering also that Crimea was historically part of Russia until it was broken off and gifted to the Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev (a Ukrainian) in the 50s. Not saying it was right or wrong, just stating some facts.
**EDIT - Turns out old Nikita was in fact Russian and not Ukrainian. My bad. He was born in Russia but his family moved to Ukraine when he was 14. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 14:17]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:38 - Feb 24 with 3079 views | Sonofpugwash |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:13 - Feb 24 by Match82 |
Seemed to work out OK with him with Crimea.
This war started in 2014 when the world just turned a blind eye to that. |
Orthodox Hoop beat me to it! Sorry about that...
Markets have reacted of course.Oil has topped $100 a barrel. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 13:44]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:41 - Feb 24 with 3064 views | joe90 |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:33 - Feb 24 by Orthodox_Hoop |
Crimea was a different story altogether. Russian troops were already in Crimea as they had leased their bases there from the Ukrainians, so there was no 'invasion.' Furthermore, in an election on whether they wanted reintegration with Russia the autonomous region voted 97% in favour of. Worth remembering also that Crimea was historically part of Russia until it was broken off and gifted to the Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev (a Ukrainian) in the 50s. Not saying it was right or wrong, just stating some facts.
**EDIT - Turns out old Nikita was in fact Russian and not Ukrainian. My bad. He was born in Russia but his family moved to Ukraine when he was 14. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 14:17]
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I don't think Khrushchev was Ukranian?
Also, it's worth remembering that Crimea was historically part of the Ottoman Empire. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:55 - Feb 24 with 2965 views | Boston |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:41 - Feb 24 by joe90 |
I don't think Khrushchev was Ukranian?
Also, it's worth remembering that Crimea was historically part of the Ottoman Empire. |
He was a Russian, born in a Russian family, within walking (no, not the long walk), distance to the Ukraine border. |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:57 - Feb 24 with 2952 views | slmrstid |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:41 - Feb 24 by joe90 |
I don't think Khrushchev was Ukranian?
Also, it's worth remembering that Crimea was historically part of the Ottoman Empire. |
According to Wikipedia he was born in Kursk, near the Ukrainian border but on the Russian side.
But did live in Ukraine in Donetsk (albeit the city was called something different then) as a young man.
Well I'm learning stuff here at least... |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:05 - Feb 24 with 2908 views | Match82 |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:33 - Feb 24 by Orthodox_Hoop |
Crimea was a different story altogether. Russian troops were already in Crimea as they had leased their bases there from the Ukrainians, so there was no 'invasion.' Furthermore, in an election on whether they wanted reintegration with Russia the autonomous region voted 97% in favour of. Worth remembering also that Crimea was historically part of Russia until it was broken off and gifted to the Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev (a Ukrainian) in the 50s. Not saying it was right or wrong, just stating some facts.
**EDIT - Turns out old Nikita was in fact Russian and not Ukrainian. My bad. He was born in Russia but his family moved to Ukraine when he was 14. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 14:17]
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Appreciate that the context was different, but for sure the lack of reaction from the world to that event is a factor in why he feels he can just go into Ukraine so boldly now. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:12 - Feb 24 with 2886 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:41 - Feb 24 by joe90 |
I don't think Khrushchev was Ukranian?
Also, it's worth remembering that Crimea was historically part of the Ottoman Empire. |
I always thought he was! Don't know why, must've been the area of his birthplace.
Ottoman Empire comment duly noted. However, to my knowledge, there are little if any Turks living there while the majority are in fact Slavic, mostly Russian. | | | |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:22 - Feb 24 with 2846 views | Boston |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:12 - Feb 24 by Orthodox_Hoop |
I always thought he was! Don't know why, must've been the area of his birthplace.
Ottoman Empire comment duly noted. However, to my knowledge, there are little if any Turks living there while the majority are in fact Slavic, mostly Russian. |
The Turkic people of Ukraine are called Taters, pronounced Tarters (in English). There are millions of ‘em. | |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:34 - Feb 24 with 2789 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:05 - Feb 24 by Match82 |
Appreciate that the context was different, but for sure the lack of reaction from the world to that event is a factor in why he feels he can just go into Ukraine so boldly now. |
I should probably preface this by saying I'm in no way pro Putin or pro Russia, if anything I hate all big bullies and that includes us.
While I appreciate many on here are (inadvertently) victims of the current climate of clickbait journalism, I've been following developments in that neck of the woods for some time as I'm sh it scared of a larger conflagration. The writing has been on the wall since the NATO organised Bucharest Summit of 2008 (to which Putin was invited!) in which it was suggested Ukraine and Georgia would be welcome to join NATO at some point. This coming from an organistation that in the 90s 'promised' it would not expand further east. So while I in no way condone any form of militarism or violence in which innocents suffer, Russia has been prodded to the point it will not put up with it anymore. The bottom line is Russia will not allow Ukraine to be a NATO satellite full stop and has made that clear ad infinitum - they will wreck they place before they allow that to happen. Happened in Georgia, now it's happening in Ukraine. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:37 - Feb 24 with 2765 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:22 - Feb 24 by Boston |
The Turkic people of Ukraine are called Taters, pronounced Tarters (in English). There are millions of ‘em. |
2001 and 2014 census has them at just over 250,000, but ok. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:04 - Feb 24 with 2663 views | joe90 |
For me Russia's claim to the Ukraine brings into sharp focus our own colonial legacy and how that's shaped the post WW2 world.
It also highlights a lingering Russophobic attitude.
Whilst the West has been free to colonise land way beyond their boarders they've also historical intervened with Russian expansion of it's own boarders.
I think there's still a view that Russia and Russian are backwards people. The state of the empire, followed by the state of the Soviet Union, followed by the Post Soviet state none of these periods have covered Russia in glory, or done anything to change this view.
At some point something's going to give and Putin has made no secrete about the fact he feels Russia has been humiliated.
Is it time for us to take Russia seriously or double down and fight for what we believe in...what ever that is?! | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:13 - Feb 24 with 2611 views | Sonofpugwash |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:04 - Feb 24 by joe90 |
For me Russia's claim to the Ukraine brings into sharp focus our own colonial legacy and how that's shaped the post WW2 world.
It also highlights a lingering Russophobic attitude.
Whilst the West has been free to colonise land way beyond their boarders they've also historical intervened with Russian expansion of it's own boarders.
I think there's still a view that Russia and Russian are backwards people. The state of the empire, followed by the state of the Soviet Union, followed by the Post Soviet state none of these periods have covered Russia in glory, or done anything to change this view.
At some point something's going to give and Putin has made no secrete about the fact he feels Russia has been humiliated.
Is it time for us to take Russia seriously or double down and fight for what we believe in...what ever that is?! |
Who is "us"? When you've had nuclear weapons aimed at you and regular incursions into your airspace for decades it's very difficult NOT to take things seriously. | |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:13 - Feb 24 with 2617 views | Boston |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:37 - Feb 24 by Orthodox_Hoop |
2001 and 2014 census has them at just over 250,000, but ok. |
I’m told, Tartars (largely), don’t bother participating in much officialdom in the countries they reside in, including censuses. | |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:17 - Feb 24 with 2601 views | BostonR |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:34 - Feb 24 by Orthodox_Hoop |
I should probably preface this by saying I'm in no way pro Putin or pro Russia, if anything I hate all big bullies and that includes us.
While I appreciate many on here are (inadvertently) victims of the current climate of clickbait journalism, I've been following developments in that neck of the woods for some time as I'm sh it scared of a larger conflagration. The writing has been on the wall since the NATO organised Bucharest Summit of 2008 (to which Putin was invited!) in which it was suggested Ukraine and Georgia would be welcome to join NATO at some point. This coming from an organistation that in the 90s 'promised' it would not expand further east. So while I in no way condone any form of militarism or violence in which innocents suffer, Russia has been prodded to the point it will not put up with it anymore. The bottom line is Russia will not allow Ukraine to be a NATO satellite full stop and has made that clear ad infinitum - they will wreck they place before they allow that to happen. Happened in Georgia, now it's happening in Ukraine. |
Who are Russia to tell a democratic nation what to do? If Ukraine wants to join NATO and the EU, it is their right. All liberal democracies should stand up 100% , to that right to choose your own destiny.
Putin is pissed at Ukraine because they chose a free-trade agreement with the EU over a Russian customs union. Putin is only focused on nationalism - not security and will never respond to reasonable negotiation. He cares little for human rights and he has to be stopped.
Russia is an internal tinderbox. Although the internal security apparatus is heavy it could be dismantled from the inside - let's hope so, before this lunatic takes us over the edge. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:18 - Feb 24 with 2597 views | BostonR |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:55 - Feb 24 by Orthodox_Hoop |
What a ridiculous fear mongering post. |
What part of my post is un-true? | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:19 - Feb 24 with 2595 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:17 - Feb 24 by BostonR |
Who are Russia to tell a democratic nation what to do? If Ukraine wants to join NATO and the EU, it is their right. All liberal democracies should stand up 100% , to that right to choose your own destiny.
Putin is pissed at Ukraine because they chose a free-trade agreement with the EU over a Russian customs union. Putin is only focused on nationalism - not security and will never respond to reasonable negotiation. He cares little for human rights and he has to be stopped.
Russia is an internal tinderbox. Although the internal security apparatus is heavy it could be dismantled from the inside - let's hope so, before this lunatic takes us over the edge. |
Who are we to tell a democratic nation what to do?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mi6-regrets-helping-vladimir-putin-to-get-ele |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:20 - Feb 24 with 2588 views | Boston |
A friend of mine has, in the last hour, crossed out of Ukraine into Slovakia. Hopes to be back in the US this weekend. I’m sure there will be some interesting observations. | |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:27 - Feb 24 with 2559 views | joe90 |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:13 - Feb 24 by Sonofpugwash |
Who is "us"? When you've had nuclear weapons aimed at you and regular incursions into your airspace for decades it's very difficult NOT to take things seriously. |
That's a good question.
'Us' would be the NATO members and all nations that were/are ideologically apposed to the Soviet Union and found themselves in the post Soviet era leaning towards the West.
With second part of your comment I'm not sure who you're referring to as that statement could be applicable to all sides ie: Russia/US/UK etc
All I'm asking is what are we (the UK) and the rest of the nations opposed to Russia going to do? [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 15:31]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:34 - Feb 24 with 2510 views | LythamR |
The Tatar Khans of the Crimea (vassals of the Ottomans) plundered the region of the ukraine and north and east year after year, capturing and enslaving ethnic Ukrainians and russians by the tens of thousands some years and selling them through ottoman slave markets. The Russian Tsars had to pay them off time and again, The lower reaches of the Don river and the sea of Azov were controlled by the Turks themselves until eventually Peter the Great managed to rest control, and secure the area despite their allies at the time (austria, poland, venice, England) creating a seperate peace to their own advantage hanging Russia out to dry after encouraging them to fight the turks. The Peace between the european powers and the Ottomans was made so that the Hapsburg attention could be safely turned towards the French under louis 14th.
even before that the crimea and traditional ukraine area was controlled by Romans and Greeks and sometimes Poland
it is a bloody and complex history much of which has a significant bearing on the situation, not particularly by us or Boris or Joe Biden but certainly by the people that live in the area, many of whom on both sides may now suffer and die
Personally i dont was to see anybody's young men and women being sent home in bodybags regardless of their nationality or ethnicity but that is what is likely to happen because of the continued power games and geopolitical nonsense of this fu*cked up world |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:40 - Feb 24 with 2485 views | kensalriser |
NATO has posed zero aggressive threat to post USSR Russia. Zero. It's a ludicrous pretext. Astonishing that anyone could buy into Putin's propaganda. He's simply a scaled up version of a classic playground or pub bully - you called my mate a cnt/looked at me in a funny way/spilled my pint. |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:41 - Feb 24 with 2467 views | Sonofpugwash |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:27 - Feb 24 by joe90 |
That's a good question.
'Us' would be the NATO members and all nations that were/are ideologically apposed to the Soviet Union and found themselves in the post Soviet era leaning towards the West.
With second part of your comment I'm not sure who you're referring to as that statement could be applicable to all sides ie: Russia/US/UK etc
All I'm asking is what are we (the UK) and the rest of the nations opposed to Russia going to do? [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 15:31]
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Being one of those who lived through the Cuba Missile Crisis I've never given Russia (then Soviet Union)anything else than the utmost "respect" In fact this is one of the reasons why a potential war drove me to move as far west in the UK as I could feasibly go 20 years ago.
Putin reminds me of Hitler in the wake of WW1 trying to redress the humiliation of "losing"territory.
Either that or publicly riding bears stripped to the waist (Putin,not the bears) has lost its impact. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 15:42]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:43 - Feb 24 with 2458 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:17 - Feb 24 by BostonR |
Who are Russia to tell a democratic nation what to do? If Ukraine wants to join NATO and the EU, it is their right. All liberal democracies should stand up 100% , to that right to choose your own destiny.
Putin is pissed at Ukraine because they chose a free-trade agreement with the EU over a Russian customs union. Putin is only focused on nationalism - not security and will never respond to reasonable negotiation. He cares little for human rights and he has to be stopped.
Russia is an internal tinderbox. Although the internal security apparatus is heavy it could be dismantled from the inside - let's hope so, before this lunatic takes us over the edge. |
I'm awfully sorry but that is an extremely naïve way to look how foreign policy is shaped in any any country, democratic or otherwise. When you say 'If Ukraine wants to join NATO' you say it as if the people there have voted in a referendum for it to happen; no. The decision is made by the people in power, in this case pro western backed puppets. It's no big secret, at least not to the Russians, that the regime change in the Ukraine in Feb 2014 was a flat out coup - arch-warmonger himself Jon McCain was IN Kiev at the time on the streets telling the people of the country the USA was behind them. Let that sink in for a second. An American senator, in the capital city of a neighbouring country to Russia which has a multitude of historical grievances with Russia, stoking up trouble and effectively overthrowing the elected government and giving their support to a side that has openly Neo Nazi forces within it. I probably don't need to remind you that Russia lost 20 million people to the Nazis, something they will not forget anytime soon. It's like Putin going to Canada during the trucker crisis and throwing his lot behind them and toppling Trudeau. Never going to happen obviously, but then the states have the Munroe Doctrine don't they which sees any meddling in the western hemisphere by a European power as a threat to national security. But when the boot is on the other foot it's ok right? | | | |
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