| Chair & Barbet 16:55 - Dec 10 with 6172 views | WestbourneR |
Chair wasn't just good vs Millwall he was exceptional. He really does look to be one of our few top quality talents now. I'm really pleased to see him kick on and take a game by the scruff of the neck, play in dangerous areas. That's what he needed to do after slightly flattering to deceive at times last season.
Barbet. For me he is huge issue, particularly in the air. He just misses headers far far too often. Clearly, Warburton is dazzled by his technical skill, but as a defender he's powder puff. Missed header (again) cost us the game. He HAS to be replaced. I find it extraordinary he's remained the mainstay of defence that has conceded so many goals.
We desperately need another centre back - nothing pretty, just a proper no nonsense big mean b*stard. A grizzled leader. |  |
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| Chair & Barbet on 13:57 - Dec 11 with 1419 views | R_from_afar |
| Chair & Barbet on 20:20 - Dec 10 by qprd |
bonne to me is the more promising prospect as a goal scorer... he seems to regularly find himself in scoring positions... hes just so wasteful in front of goal... but there are a lot of strikers who have improved their finishing...
dykes on the other hand is literally incapable of ever being in the right place... how many shots/shots on target has he taken through 15 matches so far (excluding pens)? i think that instinct is much harder to develop
im hoping im wrong obviously... |
He can only literally be incapable of it if some sort of leash or other restraining mechanism, like an anchor, is preventing him from doing it.
In any case, that is literally not true because he was in the right place to convert that cross against Brentford. I am not trying to start a big argument - and I want to see a lot more from Dykes, I am not convinced yet - but I need to set the record straight. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Chair & Barbet on 14:12 - Dec 11 with 1392 views | WestbourneR |
| Chair & Barbet on 13:25 - Dec 11 by bakerloo8 |
If we could find a hill or nelson who could play on the floor as well as head it like a lej then surely he wouldn't play for us. We got Dickie, theres not many around like him for us to pick up. |
The whole point I'm making is how he plays on the floor should be the lowest consideration, he just needs a proper defender. | |
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| Chair & Barbet on 14:36 - Dec 11 with 1357 views | francisbowles |
| Chair & Barbet on 13:57 - Dec 11 by R_from_afar |
He can only literally be incapable of it if some sort of leash or other restraining mechanism, like an anchor, is preventing him from doing it.
In any case, that is literally not true because he was in the right place to convert that cross against Brentford. I am not trying to start a big argument - and I want to see a lot more from Dykes, I am not convinced yet - but I need to set the record straight. |
I think it is difficult for Dykes with BOS as he holds onto the ball too long and when he does manage to get a ball into the middle into a packed goalmouth, no one knows what he is going to do and he doesn't find a teammate. The one against Brentford he released early, as Rico Henry is as quick as him, and whilst stretching and Dykes had time to read it and connect. A rare exception. Chair has a similar tendency to hold the ball for too long, an extra touch, but to a lesser extent.
Also Dykes is finding as Matt Smith used to, that when he comes short for a header and flicks it on, there is rarely a team mate who has made a positive move to get beyond him. |  | | |
| Chair & Barbet on 14:41 - Dec 11 with 1354 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Chair & Barbet on 14:12 - Dec 11 by WestbourneR |
The whole point I'm making is how he plays on the floor should be the lowest consideration, he just needs a proper defender. |
as i said in another thread, westbourne, we keep being linked with CBs. I wouldn't be shocked for one to come in in Jan, but while I suspect a tall, strong, type to be the priority, he will have to be able to pass a ball. |  |
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| Chair & Barbet on 14:45 - Dec 11 with 1345 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Chair & Barbet on 14:41 - Dec 11 by Antti_Heinola |
as i said in another thread, westbourne, we keep being linked with CBs. I wouldn't be shocked for one to come in in Jan, but while I suspect a tall, strong, type to be the priority, he will have to be able to pass a ball. |
Almost certainly. That's our style and I can't see it changing.
I like that we were looking for a left-sided centre-back during the summer. We need cover there and we need to be able to rest/drop Barbet if merited. |  |
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| Chair & Barbet on 14:48 - Dec 11 with 1338 views | nix |
| Chair & Barbet on 13:27 - Dec 11 by bakerloo8 |
Tbf I think Dieng was always the long term option, just needed games he got out on loan to make him oven ready for the Championship.
Bot sure why Lumley got the nod start of the season though..... |
Possibly putting him in the shop window? No takers though. |  | | |
| Chair & Barbet on 14:50 - Dec 11 with 1335 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Chair & Barbet on 14:48 - Dec 11 by nix |
Possibly putting him in the shop window? No takers though. |
Ya, maybe...good point.
Like others, I've been wondering why. | |
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| Chair & Barbet on 14:50 - Dec 11 with 1331 views | nix |
| Chair & Barbet on 13:40 - Dec 11 by RBlock |
On Chair, he's no on 5 in 17. Eze was on 6 in 17 at this point last season, including 2 pens. Had Chair been on pens, he could conceivably be on 8 in 17. Obviously different players and Chair would benefit from being used centrally more often, but shows he is stepping up this season. He's also made the 4th most key passes in the league, after Buendia, Wallace, and Roberts, so creating chances also. |
Absolutely spot on. If we'd been able to score from some of these chances created by BOS and Chair, we'd be easily out of trouble. | | | |
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| Chair & Barbet on 15:13 - Dec 11 with 1301 views | Burnleyhoop |
| Chair & Barbet on 14:41 - Dec 11 by Antti_Heinola |
as i said in another thread, westbourne, we keep being linked with CBs. I wouldn't be shocked for one to come in in Jan, but while I suspect a tall, strong, type to be the priority, he will have to be able to pass a ball. |
Would have assumed that to be a pre-requisite for a professional footballer at this level?
However, the best “passers” in the game are typically the ones who remain calm and composed when under pressure. Eze is a perfect example, as he is never fazed when on the ball and is supremely confident in his ability to find the right option. To his credit, LTC also has good composure and moves the ball around very well.
Barbet, for most part, is constantly panic stricken and fails to in-still confidence across the back four. My hope is that Dickie will impose himself eventually and become the leader that some have said he is capable of. | | | |
| Chair & Barbet on 15:58 - Dec 11 with 1261 views | bakerloo8 |
| Chair & Barbet on 14:12 - Dec 11 by WestbourneR |
The whole point I'm making is how he plays on the floor should be the lowest consideration, he just needs a proper defender. |
Yeh but Warburtons teams have to play out from the back, hence the need for ball playing centre backs like Dickie and barbet and leinster jettisoned. |  | | |
| Chair & Barbet on 18:06 - Dec 11 with 1219 views | WestbourneR |
| Chair & Barbet on 15:58 - Dec 11 by bakerloo8 |
Yeh but Warburtons teams have to play out from the back, hence the need for ball playing centre backs like Dickie and barbet and leinster jettisoned. |
Yes but - sigh - I get that. I just don't think 'playing out from the back' centre backs should be the focus of lower to mid table Championship manager. His focus should be to make us stop leaking soft goals with wannabe ball playing centre backs who can't defend, like Barbet.
We've got pretensions way about where we're at and as a result we're conceding lots of goals.
I also don't see nearly enough examples of our CBs ball playing wizardry to justify their role.
They need to defend - positioning, heading, tackling - first.
Get points, move up the table, and then think about luxuries like defence splitting passing from our centre backs.
Warburton is being pretentious for me. It's like when Ollie started playing three at the back because Conte was. | |
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| Chair & Barbet on 18:40 - Dec 11 with 1198 views | Hunterhoop |
| Chair & Barbet on 13:18 - Dec 11 by rsonist |
Couple of things.
Hard bstard. He keeps coming up. An understandable shout but also magic silver bullet unicorn thinking to a large extent. Maybe if Leistner was cheaper and happy to stay we'd have kept him on, but he was never, ever as consistently effective and transformative a leader as he has grown to become in rose tinted hindsight. (And before lockdown happened we were proven to be a better functioning side when Barbet returned from the injury that let Leistner back in). For the few days between Brentford and Huddersfield this board was all about the need for Cameron back "enforcing". Against big bad Wall we'd have been a far better off with more Carrolls and Chairs to move the ball instead - doing Plan A better. I won't argue a different defender may well improve us, but it's usually not that simple - it's not one man, it's not even four men (hurr durr defensive coach) , it's a collective issue. van Dijk took Liverpool's defence up a level but did he do the same at Southampton? It's entirely possible that even if we could find that magic defender he'd get shredded too in this set up.
Recruitment. Stylistically, Boro picked up Hall and competed for Goode. King Warnock wasn't back in for his former £8m signing Aden Flint, who we reportedly may have enquired about loaning, and is the one traditional CB we might be said to have been priced out for by Sheff Wed. (Mawson and Hector are not who people are thinking about when they talk about what we need). I think it's fairly clear we've not gone out of our way to replace Leistner like for like, let alone be priced out of the bidding in doing so.
Penrice. It's always been opaque who does what or has been responsible for what (spoiler - it's always collaborative) and has been open to rhetorical manipulation as a result - when it needs to be Les or the head coach it's all on them suddenly. FWIW, QPR's head of recruitment is Andy Belk, he's been here 12 years, he worked in Penrice's team and took over after he left - this was his first window in full charge. |
And Andy Belk came through the club as a Data Analyst, then Chief Data Analyst, I believe. I went to uni with his brother years back and met him a few years back. He’s not an ex-pro; he’s a professional analyst. It’s a notable difference in approach. |  | | |
| Chair & Barbet on 19:03 - Dec 11 with 1184 views | Hunterhoop |
| Chair & Barbet on 13:31 - Dec 11 by joe90 |
I really didn't rate Barbet after his first few games. I think he gave away a few penalties and looked a total liability. What I've come to realise is that at this level you aren't going to have a player that's the complete package and we're going to have to make do with players like Dickie who are very one dimensional but effective. That said, I don't rate Dickie either. |
I take a real interest in centre halves, more so than any position.
By know means a former pro, but I do think I understand the basics of centre half play.
I think Barbet is a liability. I was suspicious at the start, and I’m adamant than ever.
That isn’t to say he’s a bad footballer. He’s not. He’s tidy on the ball. Decent touch. Solid short-medium pass. Less good with the diags...
But he is a bad defender, certainly at this level. His highlights are always last ditch tackles sprinting back, but that highlights he’s often out of position.
In the air, certainly at set pieces, he gets bullied. He’s not up for the fight. As Clive says, he’s always looking for protection from the ref, rather than focusing on beating his man to the ball.
When played to the forward’s feet, he has the Lynch fault of getting too tight and getting rolled.
He often sells himself high up the pitch too and then doesn’t get back in time. Happened regularly away at Barnsley this year.
Review the stats for the full season last season on our points per game with vs without him and they were not materially better or worse than any other defender; he was ever present post lockdown...
And he’s been part of a back 4 now that has conceded over 100 goals in 68 games and 2 or more in 38. He is the only ever present, except for the manager. In any study the constant in repeated poor performance is rarely the solution, unless you remove them.
Finally, he’s the most experienced of our defence. How well organised is it? What role is he playing in that?
I know we’ve been poor defensively for years. I know it’s been 70 goals or more for 3 seasons in a row. But last year was the worst not least because we had WAY more possession last year compared to previous seasons. The back 4 of previous years facing few attacks like Barbet did, would have conceded far fewer. This year is not any better.
If we’re to improve, we need to replace Barbet with someone who is better at defending.
And genuinely “finally”, can we drop this “he’s a baller” thing. He’s not. He’s barely better than average as a passer of the ball. Look at the pass maps for the few games posted online earlier this season. His pass completion was always lower than Dickie. Often lower than Kakay. He’s not dreadful at passing, far from it, but his passing by know means makes up for his lack of ability as a defender.
Dickie is slow as hell, and handsy, but he is a far more accomplished defender. Far better. | | | |
| Chair & Barbet on 19:28 - Dec 11 with 1164 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Chair & Barbet on 19:03 - Dec 11 by Hunterhoop |
I take a real interest in centre halves, more so than any position.
By know means a former pro, but I do think I understand the basics of centre half play.
I think Barbet is a liability. I was suspicious at the start, and I’m adamant than ever.
That isn’t to say he’s a bad footballer. He’s not. He’s tidy on the ball. Decent touch. Solid short-medium pass. Less good with the diags...
But he is a bad defender, certainly at this level. His highlights are always last ditch tackles sprinting back, but that highlights he’s often out of position.
In the air, certainly at set pieces, he gets bullied. He’s not up for the fight. As Clive says, he’s always looking for protection from the ref, rather than focusing on beating his man to the ball.
When played to the forward’s feet, he has the Lynch fault of getting too tight and getting rolled.
He often sells himself high up the pitch too and then doesn’t get back in time. Happened regularly away at Barnsley this year.
Review the stats for the full season last season on our points per game with vs without him and they were not materially better or worse than any other defender; he was ever present post lockdown...
And he’s been part of a back 4 now that has conceded over 100 goals in 68 games and 2 or more in 38. He is the only ever present, except for the manager. In any study the constant in repeated poor performance is rarely the solution, unless you remove them.
Finally, he’s the most experienced of our defence. How well organised is it? What role is he playing in that?
I know we’ve been poor defensively for years. I know it’s been 70 goals or more for 3 seasons in a row. But last year was the worst not least because we had WAY more possession last year compared to previous seasons. The back 4 of previous years facing few attacks like Barbet did, would have conceded far fewer. This year is not any better.
If we’re to improve, we need to replace Barbet with someone who is better at defending.
And genuinely “finally”, can we drop this “he’s a baller” thing. He’s not. He’s barely better than average as a passer of the ball. Look at the pass maps for the few games posted online earlier this season. His pass completion was always lower than Dickie. Often lower than Kakay. He’s not dreadful at passing, far from it, but his passing by know means makes up for his lack of ability as a defender.
Dickie is slow as hell, and handsy, but he is a far more accomplished defender. Far better. |
Agree with every word, Hunter.
Usually, I'd have a "on the other hand..." but not on this one. | |
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| Chair & Barbet on 19:45 - Dec 11 with 1154 views | ozexile |
| Chair & Barbet on 19:03 - Dec 11 by Hunterhoop |
I take a real interest in centre halves, more so than any position.
By know means a former pro, but I do think I understand the basics of centre half play.
I think Barbet is a liability. I was suspicious at the start, and I’m adamant than ever.
That isn’t to say he’s a bad footballer. He’s not. He’s tidy on the ball. Decent touch. Solid short-medium pass. Less good with the diags...
But he is a bad defender, certainly at this level. His highlights are always last ditch tackles sprinting back, but that highlights he’s often out of position.
In the air, certainly at set pieces, he gets bullied. He’s not up for the fight. As Clive says, he’s always looking for protection from the ref, rather than focusing on beating his man to the ball.
When played to the forward’s feet, he has the Lynch fault of getting too tight and getting rolled.
He often sells himself high up the pitch too and then doesn’t get back in time. Happened regularly away at Barnsley this year.
Review the stats for the full season last season on our points per game with vs without him and they were not materially better or worse than any other defender; he was ever present post lockdown...
And he’s been part of a back 4 now that has conceded over 100 goals in 68 games and 2 or more in 38. He is the only ever present, except for the manager. In any study the constant in repeated poor performance is rarely the solution, unless you remove them.
Finally, he’s the most experienced of our defence. How well organised is it? What role is he playing in that?
I know we’ve been poor defensively for years. I know it’s been 70 goals or more for 3 seasons in a row. But last year was the worst not least because we had WAY more possession last year compared to previous seasons. The back 4 of previous years facing few attacks like Barbet did, would have conceded far fewer. This year is not any better.
If we’re to improve, we need to replace Barbet with someone who is better at defending.
And genuinely “finally”, can we drop this “he’s a baller” thing. He’s not. He’s barely better than average as a passer of the ball. Look at the pass maps for the few games posted online earlier this season. His pass completion was always lower than Dickie. Often lower than Kakay. He’s not dreadful at passing, far from it, but his passing by know means makes up for his lack of ability as a defender.
Dickie is slow as hell, and handsy, but he is a far more accomplished defender. Far better. |
Spot on IMO | | | |
| Chair & Barbet on 21:22 - Dec 11 with 1071 views | davman |
I'm not convinced it is the personnel that is the main problem, it's the formation. Full backs allowed to bomb on and insufficient cover from a poor midfield leaves us with too many overloads to defend in open play. That said, their individual decision making has been woeful (Wallace's wander v Coventry still confuses the hell out of me).
The set piece situation is completely different - there it may be the personnel and the way they are set up.
But the main issue is that there doesn't seem to be anyone on the pitch organising at the back - no verbal "leaders". |  |
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| Chair & Barbet on 22:38 - Dec 11 with 1024 views | LazyFan |
| Chair & Barbet on 13:27 - Dec 11 by bakerloo8 |
Tbf I think Dieng was always the long term option, just needed games he got out on loan to make him oven ready for the Championship.
Bot sure why Lumley got the nod start of the season though..... |
Dieng hadn't signed a 4-year deal then.
As soon as he did he was in the team the very next match and has been ever-present.
Whereas Lums has been sent to Doncaster. |  |
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| Chair & Barbet on 22:57 - Dec 11 with 1018 views | joolsyp |
| Chair & Barbet on 13:02 - Dec 11 by Northernr |
Barbet's big problem for me is he looks for shortcuts rather than just defending. He's always appealing, waving his hands around, looking for an offside or a free kick for a push. The farcical Coventry winning goal a prime example, too busy flapping his hands around at the referee, letting a man pile in over the top of him for a header. By all means have a word with the referee afterwards, let him know, but defend the situation first. |
Does that mean we have flappy and handsy as our two centre-halves  |  | | |
| Chair & Barbet on 23:00 - Dec 11 with 1011 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Chair & Barbet on 22:38 - Dec 11 by LazyFan |
Dieng hadn't signed a 4-year deal then.
As soon as he did he was in the team the very next match and has been ever-present.
Whereas Lums has been sent to Doncaster. |
Good point.
I'd forgotten that, LazyFan. | |
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| Chair & Barbet on 23:05 - Dec 11 with 1005 views | Loftgirl |
| Chair & Barbet on 11:57 - Dec 11 by peterlund_dk |
No Chair puns? I guess we missed a sitter there. |
It's not eze anymore. |  | | |
| Chair & Barbet on 09:43 - Dec 12 with 898 views | joe90 |
| Chair & Barbet on 19:03 - Dec 11 by Hunterhoop |
I take a real interest in centre halves, more so than any position.
By know means a former pro, but I do think I understand the basics of centre half play.
I think Barbet is a liability. I was suspicious at the start, and I’m adamant than ever.
That isn’t to say he’s a bad footballer. He’s not. He’s tidy on the ball. Decent touch. Solid short-medium pass. Less good with the diags...
But he is a bad defender, certainly at this level. His highlights are always last ditch tackles sprinting back, but that highlights he’s often out of position.
In the air, certainly at set pieces, he gets bullied. He’s not up for the fight. As Clive says, he’s always looking for protection from the ref, rather than focusing on beating his man to the ball.
When played to the forward’s feet, he has the Lynch fault of getting too tight and getting rolled.
He often sells himself high up the pitch too and then doesn’t get back in time. Happened regularly away at Barnsley this year.
Review the stats for the full season last season on our points per game with vs without him and they were not materially better or worse than any other defender; he was ever present post lockdown...
And he’s been part of a back 4 now that has conceded over 100 goals in 68 games and 2 or more in 38. He is the only ever present, except for the manager. In any study the constant in repeated poor performance is rarely the solution, unless you remove them.
Finally, he’s the most experienced of our defence. How well organised is it? What role is he playing in that?
I know we’ve been poor defensively for years. I know it’s been 70 goals or more for 3 seasons in a row. But last year was the worst not least because we had WAY more possession last year compared to previous seasons. The back 4 of previous years facing few attacks like Barbet did, would have conceded far fewer. This year is not any better.
If we’re to improve, we need to replace Barbet with someone who is better at defending.
And genuinely “finally”, can we drop this “he’s a baller” thing. He’s not. He’s barely better than average as a passer of the ball. Look at the pass maps for the few games posted online earlier this season. His pass completion was always lower than Dickie. Often lower than Kakay. He’s not dreadful at passing, far from it, but his passing by know means makes up for his lack of ability as a defender.
Dickie is slow as hell, and handsy, but he is a far more accomplished defender. Far better. |
Good analysis of Barbet, can't disagree.
What do you think are Dickies good attributes? Do you think it's a case of him standing out in a poor defence or do you think he's actually a good defender? |  | | |
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