| Whatever happened to "merit" on 17:07 - Oct 27 with 5183 views | AtThePeake |
Good point.
How did Frank Lampard merit the Derby job, and the Chelsea job after it having failed to get promotion with Derby in one season? How did Steve Gerrard merit the Rangers job after less than a year in charge of Liverpool's youth team? |  |
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 17:16 - Oct 27 with 5163 views | judd |
Merit indeed. |  |
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 17:40 - Oct 27 with 5114 views | SuddenLad |
It's the old divisive argument all over again. It's surely about whoever is the most suitable candidate for the job. The person who fits all the required criteria and whose abilities suit the vacancy best. Why would any would-be employer select a candidate who ISN'T the best for the job, but who ticks other non-essential boxes? I can't see the sense in it. |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 19:27 - Oct 27 with 4982 views | pioneer |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 17:07 - Oct 27 by AtThePeake |
Good point.
How did Frank Lampard merit the Derby job, and the Chelsea job after it having failed to get promotion with Derby in one season? How did Steve Gerrard merit the Rangers job after less than a year in charge of Liverpool's youth team? |
and closer to home the name steve eyre comes to mind. |  | | |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 19:32 - Oct 27 with 4969 views | judd |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 19:27 - Oct 27 by pioneer |
and closer to home the name steve eyre comes to mind. |
He went through a recruitment process, didn't he? | |
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 19:58 - Oct 27 with 4918 views | pioneer |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 19:32 - Oct 27 by judd |
He went through a recruitment process, didn't he? |
yes but doesnt mean he got the job on merit. | | | |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 20:04 - Oct 27 with 4897 views | judd |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 19:58 - Oct 27 by pioneer |
yes but doesnt mean he got the job on merit. |
If he went through a competitive process and presented himself to the satisfaction of his potential employers then I would beg to differ.
That he was found out when in situ is another matter | |
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 22:52 - Oct 27 with 4753 views | mikehunt |
Why aren’t there more BAME referees? They should start in their own back yard and sort that little anomaly out before trying to be all self-righteous with this matter. |  |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 06:17 - Oct 28 with 4570 views | EllGazzell |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 22:52 - Oct 27 by mikehunt |
Why aren’t there more BAME referees? They should start in their own back yard and sort that little anomaly out before trying to be all self-righteous with this matter. |
I can't for the life of me imagine why there aren't more BAME referees... |  |
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 08:55 - Oct 28 with 4451 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 17:40 - Oct 27 by SuddenLad |
It's the old divisive argument all over again. It's surely about whoever is the most suitable candidate for the job. The person who fits all the required criteria and whose abilities suit the vacancy best. Why would any would-be employer select a candidate who ISN'T the best for the job, but who ticks other non-essential boxes? I can't see the sense in it. |
Because everyone has bias, whether they admit to it or not . People are apt to choose something familiar, similar, this happens often at a subconscious level. Usually it’s not as subtle, A lot of people at the top making decisions come from a position of privilege , and as we see in the upper echelons of govt, a huge proportion are the products of the same private schools. That isn’t meritocracy .
Once it becomes normal to see more BAME and women involved , there will not even be a debate about merit, it will be the norm. To get to that point requires a kick start. |  |
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 09:51 - Oct 28 with 4380 views | SuddenLad |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 08:55 - Oct 28 by rochdaleriddler |
Because everyone has bias, whether they admit to it or not . People are apt to choose something familiar, similar, this happens often at a subconscious level. Usually it’s not as subtle, A lot of people at the top making decisions come from a position of privilege , and as we see in the upper echelons of govt, a huge proportion are the products of the same private schools. That isn’t meritocracy .
Once it becomes normal to see more BAME and women involved , there will not even be a debate about merit, it will be the norm. To get to that point requires a kick start. |
To the detriment of the employer and other, more qualified applicants? A meritocracy is fine but not if it means a diminution in standards - and bias towards a specific applicant just to satisfy a specific 'box tick'.
As I said before, the aim of any prospective selection panel should surely be to employ the best and most able candidate, regardless of anything else. | |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:19 - Oct 28 with 4331 views | isitme |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 06:17 - Oct 28 by EllGazzell |
I can't for the life of me imagine why there aren't more BAME referees... |
Or male midwifes? |  | | |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:28 - Oct 28 with 4313 views | HK_Dale |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 09:51 - Oct 28 by SuddenLad |
To the detriment of the employer and other, more qualified applicants? A meritocracy is fine but not if it means a diminution in standards - and bias towards a specific applicant just to satisfy a specific 'box tick'.
As I said before, the aim of any prospective selection panel should surely be to employ the best and most able candidate, regardless of anything else. |
I'm not sure there is a direct correlation between implementing standards that ensure representation and a diminishing of quality in those roles.
I would also say that there is definite action required, there is inevitable subconscious (maybe even conscious) biases at play when looking at the number of BAME players who then never make it into coaching and management.
Even if there is a drop of in 'quality' the benefits of a more representative and diverse workforce, at any level, will outweigh this. |  | | |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:28 - Oct 28 with 4312 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 09:51 - Oct 28 by SuddenLad |
To the detriment of the employer and other, more qualified applicants? A meritocracy is fine but not if it means a diminution in standards - and bias towards a specific applicant just to satisfy a specific 'box tick'.
As I said before, the aim of any prospective selection panel should surely be to employ the best and most able candidate, regardless of anything else. |
That should be the aim, but as I said bias, whether intentional or not comes into play. There would be no need to box tick if everything was in fact done fairly. All that apart the interview process is a farce anyway and very often Leads to the appointment of people that are good at interview and nothing else. No process is perfect but to effect change requires some effort . | |
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:30 - Oct 28 with 4305 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:28 - Oct 28 by HK_Dale |
I'm not sure there is a direct correlation between implementing standards that ensure representation and a diminishing of quality in those roles.
I would also say that there is definite action required, there is inevitable subconscious (maybe even conscious) biases at play when looking at the number of BAME players who then never make it into coaching and management.
Even if there is a drop of in 'quality' the benefits of a more representative and diverse workforce, at any level, will outweigh this. |
I’m waiting for the ‘Paul ince was crap ‘ comments | |
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:55 - Oct 28 with 4268 views | SuddenLad |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:30 - Oct 28 by rochdaleriddler |
I’m waiting for the ‘Paul ince was crap ‘ comments |
or John Barnes. | |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:56 - Oct 28 with 4268 views | Scunnydale |
I'm still disappointed that women can now become teachers. When did that happen?
It's not so much a case of 'positive discrimination' any more, it's more a case of treating everyone equally. As has been mentioned, there is often something in people's subconscious that precludes them from assuming someone is suitable for certain roles. |  | | |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 11:03 - Oct 28 with 4254 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:55 - Oct 28 by SuddenLad |
or John Barnes. |
Can’t list all the crap white managers in one post | |
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 11:04 - Oct 28 with 4249 views | HK_Dale |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:55 - Oct 28 by SuddenLad |
or John Barnes. |
And what about Chris Hughton or Darren Moore or Hope Powell? All have had a decent degree of success.
The problem is that there are hardly representative samples because so few BAME managers have been able to get manager roles. If nothing else, this move will prove your point. If we enable an environment for more BAME leadership, and they are all Paul Ince like - then I'll hold my hands up and agree with you... | | | |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 11:12 - Oct 28 with 4229 views | SuddenLad |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 11:04 - Oct 28 by HK_Dale |
And what about Chris Hughton or Darren Moore or Hope Powell? All have had a decent degree of success.
The problem is that there are hardly representative samples because so few BAME managers have been able to get manager roles. If nothing else, this move will prove your point. If we enable an environment for more BAME leadership, and they are all Paul Ince like - then I'll hold my hands up and agree with you... |
Great examples, fine managers, all of whom are well worthy of the positions they hold/held. | |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 11:20 - Oct 28 with 4213 views | pioneer |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 11:03 - Oct 28 by rochdaleriddler |
Can’t list all the crap white managers in one post |
Dale never had a crap black manager but plenty of crap white blokes. | | | |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 11:35 - Oct 28 with 4181 views | Mass_Debater |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:30 - Oct 28 by rochdaleriddler |
I’m waiting for the ‘Paul ince was crap ‘ comments |
He was, but the problem with him and Barnes is that they play the race card before putting their managerial records on the table.
I never see anyone calling what they did as players because they were good at that, regardless of skin colour. | | | |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 11:45 - Oct 28 with 4164 views | tony_roch975 |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 11:20 - Oct 28 by pioneer |
Dale never had a crap black manager but plenty of crap white blokes. |
Just a good one ( & the first ever), Tony Collins | |
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| Whatever happened to "merit" on 11:51 - Oct 28 with 4157 views | 49thseason |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 10:56 - Oct 28 by Scunnydale |
I'm still disappointed that women can now become teachers. When did that happen?
It's not so much a case of 'positive discrimination' any more, it's more a case of treating everyone equally. As has been mentioned, there is often something in people's subconscious that precludes them from assuming someone is suitable for certain roles. |
Is it fair that half a class of kids ( boys) can go through the whole of their primary education and most of their secondary schooling without having a male teacher as a role model? Shouldnt we be recruiting more me into teaching? Isnt it possible that the lack of male role models in schools is what is putiing off white working class lads off education and the reason so many end up jobless and aimless? |  | | |
| Whatever happened to on 12:01 - Oct 28 with 4136 views | D_Alien |
| Whatever happened to "merit" on 11:51 - Oct 28 by 49thseason |
Is it fair that half a class of kids ( boys) can go through the whole of their primary education and most of their secondary schooling without having a male teacher as a role model? Shouldnt we be recruiting more me into teaching? Isnt it possible that the lack of male role models in schools is what is putiing off white working class lads off education and the reason so many end up jobless and aimless? |
How does that explain the better overall exam results among some non-white working class boys?
[Post edited 28 Oct 2020 12:10]
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