| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off 00:49 - Jul 4 with 19151 views | Jack123 |
[Post edited 4 Jul 2020 0:52]
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:35 - Jul 4 with 1681 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:25 - Jul 4 by Jango |
I imagine Mount Rushmore brings in an incredible amount of revenue to the local area. Be absolutely ludicrous to demolish it. Surely there’s a more sensible approach. |
Of course.
And there’s a very reasonable discussion to be had. Part of the work towards healing the harm has started as prof pointed out.
But what may help is the president not deliberately being provocative by making inflammatory bigoted speeches at such a contentious site. |  | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:42 - Jul 4 with 1662 views | Highjack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:32 - Jul 4 by londonlisa2001 |
Mount Rushmore was completed in the 1940s not ‘centuries ago’.
Ffs. |
I didn’t say Mt.Rushmore was completed centuries ago. 
Ffs. |  |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:45 - Jul 4 with 1656 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:14 - Jul 4 by Professor |
But remember construction began less than 50 years after the conflict. In clear living memory. There is now at least a monument to the Lakota chief Crazy Horse being built. I wonder how many attendees are aware of the background |
I've been to both. Of course, Mount Rushmore was funded by the government but nothing for Crazy Horse from them. It's being funded by donations and visitor fees. |  |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:54 - Jul 4 with 1642 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:42 - Jul 4 by Highjack |
I didn’t say Mt.Rushmore was completed centuries ago.
Ffs. |
“we can live in perpetual penance where we flagellate each other for the wrongdoings of people who lived centuries ago.“
We are talking about Mount Rushmore.
The wrongdoings were not ‘centuries ago’. They built a monument on a sacred site that had been promised to the Sioux Nation in perpetuity. And they did so in the 1940s. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:07 - Jul 4 with 1621 views | Professor |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:35 - Jul 4 by londonlisa2001 |
Of course.
And there’s a very reasonable discussion to be had. Part of the work towards healing the harm has started as prof pointed out.
But what may help is the president not deliberately being provocative by making inflammatory bigoted speeches at such a contentious site. |
I don’t think demolition is on the cards (unless General Zod gets involved). It’s more a debate around why it is controversial. Having a political rally is at best insensitive and in my view very inflammatory. Away from the Sioux Nation, whilst I think it is appropriate that people are aware Jefferson and Washington were slave owners, that was both standard practice in the American colonies in the 1770s and their role in history would mean it’s a sad day if this is used to force demolition | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:08 - Jul 4 with 1620 views | Highjack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:45 - Jul 4 by Joe_bradshaw |
I've been to both. Of course, Mount Rushmore was funded by the government but nothing for Crazy Horse from them. It's being funded by donations and visitor fees. |
I’m pretty sure the Osmonds did a charity single to help out too. | |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:10 - Jul 4 with 1615 views | Professor |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:08 - Jul 4 by Highjack |
I’m pretty sure the Osmonds did a charity single to help out too. |
Don't- AFD will be over as part of the hydrocarbon war between him and Scotia and me.
There they go smokin' up the sky! | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:11 - Jul 4 with 1612 views | Highjack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:54 - Jul 4 by londonlisa2001 |
“we can live in perpetual penance where we flagellate each other for the wrongdoings of people who lived centuries ago.“
We are talking about Mount Rushmore.
The wrongdoings were not ‘centuries ago’. They built a monument on a sacred site that had been promised to the Sioux Nation in perpetuity. And they did so in the 1940s. |
Ok if we are going to be super pedantic many of those people who built Mount Rushmore would have been born before 1920 so therefore it’s right to say they lived more than a century ago, but the wider discussion was about the treatment of the native Americans which dates back to the 16th century at least. | |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:12 - Jul 4 with 1611 views | Professor |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:20 - Jul 4 by Highjack |
Yes and all that is bloody awful but here we are 150 odd years later. How many more centuries will it take before we stop dredging up the horrors of history and start coming together? |
Probably when we do, and those of different skin tones no longer feel inequality from society and its institutions | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:51 - Jul 4 with 1561 views | Luther27 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:20 - Jul 4 by Highjack |
Yes and all that is bloody awful but here we are 150 odd years later. How many more centuries will it take before we stop dredging up the horrors of history and start coming together? |
You do know that Pagans from The Odinist Fellowship demanded two churches as a form of restitution for the actions of the Christian Church carries out 1300 years ago. They also demanded an apology for the Church’s crimes and persecution against the Fellowship and it’s followers.
There’s no hope for common sense is there. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:55 - Jul 4 with 1557 views | Highjack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:12 - Jul 4 by Professor |
Probably when we do, and those of different skin tones no longer feel inequality from society and its institutions |
Absolutely. This puritanical sanitisation of all history won’t change the way people are treated now in 2020. It has no relevance beyond some arbitrary Marxist anger at the state. | |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:59 - Jul 4 with 1552 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:11 - Jul 4 by Highjack |
Ok if we are going to be super pedantic many of those people who built Mount Rushmore would have been born before 1920 so therefore it’s right to say they lived more than a century ago, but the wider discussion was about the treatment of the native Americans which dates back to the 16th century at least. |
The Sioux Wars were second half of the 19th century. Finished in the 1890s.
The Navajo wars were going on in the early 20th century.
This is far more recent than people seem to realise. Some older people protesting will have had grandparents involved. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:59 - Jul 4 with 1552 views | Professor |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:55 - Jul 4 by Highjack |
Absolutely. This puritanical sanitisation of all history won’t change the way people are treated now in 2020. It has no relevance beyond some arbitrary Marxist anger at the state. |
History is there. There are some specific statues and monuments which are a bit too far- the Colston statue should have been in a museum. But the majority must stay but with us aware of the past more clearly than an old imperialist whitewash | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:05 - Jul 4 with 1538 views | Luther27 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:59 - Jul 4 by Professor |
History is there. There are some specific statues and monuments which are a bit too far- the Colston statue should have been in a museum. But the majority must stay but with us aware of the past more clearly than an old imperialist whitewash |
I’ve posted before that the vandalism of statues and erasing of the name is akin to the actions carried out by ISIL which the world rightly condemned. How many people knew the name Colston...who walked past his statue daily and knew nothing about him.
Educate people about OUR history, not eradicate it. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:12 - Jul 4 with 1524 views | Professor |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:05 - Jul 4 by Luther27 |
I’ve posted before that the vandalism of statues and erasing of the name is akin to the actions carried out by ISIL which the world rightly condemned. How many people knew the name Colston...who walked past his statue daily and knew nothing about him.
Educate people about OUR history, not eradicate it. |
I did and have only been to Bristol twice in the last 20 years! The statue was put up for suspects
Reasons. But is one of a few exceptions.
Most should stay. With as you rightly say,
Proper education | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:17 - Jul 4 with 1518 views | Luther27 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:12 - Jul 4 by Professor |
I did and have only been to Bristol twice in the last 20 years! The statue was put up for suspects
Reasons. But is one of a few exceptions.
Most should stay. With as you rightly say,
Proper education |
Who decides the exceptions? | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:21 - Jul 4 with 1514 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:55 - Jul 4 by Highjack |
Absolutely. This puritanical sanitisation of all history won’t change the way people are treated now in 2020. It has no relevance beyond some arbitrary Marxist anger at the state. |
So the Sioux Nation are the latest to be cast as ‘Marxist’ now? (I’d love at some point, as an aside, for people who describe so many as Marxist to explain Marxism as they understand it as the understanding appears deeply ‘off’ to me).
History has been sanitised. That’s the whole point. It’s told from a narrow perspective.
Even recent history.
And it does have relevance. By ignoring it we repeat it after all. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:25 - Jul 4 with 1507 views | Professor |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:17 - Jul 4 by Luther27 |
Who decides the exceptions? |
Should be a consensus like there was around Colston but blocked by the Society of Merchant Venturer’s | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:32 - Jul 4 with 1488 views | Luther27 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:25 - Jul 4 by Professor |
Should be a consensus like there was around Colston but blocked by the Society of Merchant Venturer’s |
Really? Colston was mob rule not a consensus. Even the BBC managed to interview members of the public who disagreed with its destruction. It’s final place in the local museum is probably its correct place, but that should have been decided by the locals.
Marvin Rees when interviewed by the BBC came across as a typical blustering politician attempting to condone the actions carried out by the mob. He had plenty of opportunity to authorise it’s removal by debating with his constituents. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:38 - Jul 4 with 1477 views | Professor |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:32 - Jul 4 by Luther27 |
Really? Colston was mob rule not a consensus. Even the BBC managed to interview members of the public who disagreed with its destruction. It’s final place in the local museum is probably its correct place, but that should have been decided by the locals.
Marvin Rees when interviewed by the BBC came across as a typical blustering politician attempting to condone the actions carried out by the mob. He had plenty of opportunity to authorise it’s removal by debating with his constituents. |
The point is there was anger as all prior approaches to consider the statue removal had been rebuffed. Colston is of course a peculiarity of Bristol. Interestingly there seems less drive to remove the slavers names from Liverpool’s streets. Very different cities built on common trade foundations | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:45 - Jul 4 with 1466 views | Flashberryjack |
They should pull them down and put them in a museum. |  |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:59 - Jul 4 with 1446 views | Highjack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:21 - Jul 4 by londonlisa2001 |
So the Sioux Nation are the latest to be cast as ‘Marxist’ now? (I’d love at some point, as an aside, for people who describe so many as Marxist to explain Marxism as they understand it as the understanding appears deeply ‘off’ to me).
History has been sanitised. That’s the whole point. It’s told from a narrow perspective.
Even recent history.
And it does have relevance. By ignoring it we repeat it after all. |
Again I wasn’t referring to the Sioux tribe specifically. But the wider “This monument is controversial” nonsense.
Imagine a scenario where Trump and Boris announce a review of all monuments and any that may cause offence to someone somewhere is to be torn down. Overnight Churchill’s gone, Nelson’s gone, all the kings and queens are gone. Cromwell gone. Rushmore gone. Washington gone. Jefferson gone. Lincoln gone. Morcambe and Wise gone (they did a very sexist joke about someone’s mother in law in 1969). Gandhi gone. Wellington gone. Any statue or monument or building with any slight association with colonialism or any other “ism” gone.
Would this have any tangible effect on how people living today are treated by the police, or by society? Would it stop police brutality or improve minorities job prospects? Would it solve the problems in the inner cities? Of course it wouldn’t. It’s just anger from the hard left at the US and UK. | |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:05 - Jul 4 with 1430 views | Professor |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:59 - Jul 4 by Highjack |
Again I wasn’t referring to the Sioux tribe specifically. But the wider “This monument is controversial” nonsense.
Imagine a scenario where Trump and Boris announce a review of all monuments and any that may cause offence to someone somewhere is to be torn down. Overnight Churchill’s gone, Nelson’s gone, all the kings and queens are gone. Cromwell gone. Rushmore gone. Washington gone. Jefferson gone. Lincoln gone. Morcambe and Wise gone (they did a very sexist joke about someone’s mother in law in 1969). Gandhi gone. Wellington gone. Any statue or monument or building with any slight association with colonialism or any other “ism” gone.
Would this have any tangible effect on how people living today are treated by the police, or by society? Would it stop police brutality or improve minorities job prospects? Would it solve the problems in the inner cities? Of course it wouldn’t. It’s just anger from the hard left at the US and UK. |
You know I was amazed to see a statue of Robert E. Lee in New Orleans a few years ago. On a column. I think it has gone now. To an extent that makes me sad, but I wonder how the large African American population felt about it? Lee himself did not own slaves. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:08 - Jul 4 with 1419 views | Ace_Jack |
Thomas Jefferson raped children he kept as slaves.
In one hundred years they’ll be decrying Marxists for opposing the reinstatement of the Jimmy Savile outside a children’s hospital, after all he raised tens of millions for charity. You could hold a rally in front of that statue and Highjack wouldn’t find it controversial. |  | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:12 - Jul 4 with 1413 views | Highjack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:59 - Jul 4 by londonlisa2001 |
The Sioux Wars were second half of the 19th century. Finished in the 1890s.
The Navajo wars were going on in the early 20th century.
This is far more recent than people seem to realise. Some older people protesting will have had grandparents involved. |
My grandparents were involved in World War II but the notion I should hold any ill will towards Germany and the German people of today is crazy in my mind. Germany doesn’t hate us either. Atrocities on all sides. The blitz, Dresden, Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima, yet we’re pretty much all friends now. World War II was undoubtedly the lowest point of human history but we’ve moved on and made amends in many ways.
Native American history is also one of massive bloodshed, the various tribes were knocking the shit out of each other for centuries before the Europeans arrived. The Sioux would have been the invaders at one point. No doubt they would have stolen the land off some other tribe who probably considered the land sacred before. History is far more complicated than the simplistic “America bad, Britain bad” narrative that the hard left are pushing. | |
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