| Windrush 14:34 - Apr 16 with 25694 views | londonlisa2001 |
What an absolutely sickening episode in the life of this country the current issue with the so-called Windrush children is.
These people arrived here as kids, their parents answering a call for help, they've lived here for 50 years, worked, paid taxes and national insurance, brought up their own families, and are now being deported or threatened.
It is shameful. |  | | |  |
| Windrush on 19:20 - Apr 18 with 3704 views | theloneranger |
| Windrush on 18:50 - Apr 18 by londonlisa2001 |
The point I was making (and Clasie) is what triggers the request for info, as we are not routinely asked to provide a passport etc for hospital treatment.
I understand why they can't provide it - it's bloody ridiculous to expect people to be able to do so going back that length of time. |
Thanks.
There were 60 Poles on the Windrush also, I wonder what happens if they or their decendants turn up at a NHS hospital for treatment. |  |
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| Windrush on 21:12 - Apr 18 with 3653 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Windrush on 08:04 - Apr 18 by AnotherJohn |
Clase and Lisa were asking how hospitals establish eligibility for treatment. There is official guidance on this in each of the four home countries, which may or may not reflect the on-the-ground reality. You will notice that it bans practices such as racial profiling.
DH (England) guidance
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
Example English NHS Trust operational guidance
http://www.newcastle-hospitals.org.uk/downloads/policies/Operational/OverseasVis
Wales is slightly different but I was unable to find the up-to-date guidance on the web.
Being 'ordinarily resident' in this context is not a simple reflection of tax status as this will be established on a practical basis by the hospital officer. For example, a returning expat who would not otherwise be eligible for free treatment could assert that s/he intends to resume residence in the UK and give evidence to support that claim, which would usually open the way for free treatment.
Here is an ordinary residence test tool:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
I am not myself involved in this process, but think the above is roughly correct. If we have any posters who work in Welsh hospitals I could be interested to hear their views. [Post edited 18 Apr 2018 8:07]
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“Clase and Lisa were asking how hospitals establish eligibility for treatment.”
No we weren’t. We were wondering what prompts a hospital to decide to seek proof of someone’s eligibility. None of the guidelines cover that and they certainly don’t ask everyone. |  |
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| Windrush on 21:30 - Apr 18 with 3638 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Windrush on 12:44 - Apr 18 by Lohengrin |
Where your attack falters, Killy, is with today’s disclosure that the decision to bin the landing cards was made in 2009 under the last Labour government.
I’m not trying to make any sort of a political point just to echo the frustration of anybody who has attempted serious archival research and discovered just how much hardcopy has been redacted as superfluous in the last three decades as computerisation has progressed.
There is no conspiracy here, nothing sinister. What they will tell you time after time is that it’s a question of space and there is little of it for what they may deem as ephemera. |
Or maybe it wasn’t ....? 😂
Home Office Tues, 5pm: Decision to dispose of Windrush 'registration slips' was taken by UK Border Agency in 2010.
PM tells MPs, Weds 1210pm: Decision was taken by Labour in 2009.
PM's spokesperson, Weds, 1240pm: "Operational decision was by UKBA"ie not by Lab ministers.
Who knows ?
Irrespective, the treatment of these good people and our fellow citizens has been truly appalling. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Windrush on 21:34 - Apr 18 with 3633 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| Windrush on 21:30 - Apr 18 by Kilkennyjack |
Or maybe it wasn’t ....? 😂
Home Office Tues, 5pm: Decision to dispose of Windrush 'registration slips' was taken by UK Border Agency in 2010.
PM tells MPs, Weds 1210pm: Decision was taken by Labour in 2009.
PM's spokesperson, Weds, 1240pm: "Operational decision was by UKBA"ie not by Lab ministers.
Who knows ?
Irrespective, the treatment of these good people and our fellow citizens has been truly appalling. |
Always nails it ,sees it coming
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| Windrush on 00:19 - Apr 19 with 3605 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Windrush on 00:31 - Apr 17 by Kerouac |
The whole country is in agreement on this...so how the f*ck some want to make out that this is a small minded/racist/bigoted country where foreigners are feeling; "you will never really be part of the UK." is beyond me.
To all those constantly trying to make out the UK is a mean, nasty, small minded place full of Daily Mail readers...have you been anywhere else?
We have one of the most diverse most harmonious population of people from different ethnic backgrounds in the world...certainly in Europe. Yes Europe, the land of milk and honey where the French vote for a national front candidate in their millions, Le Pen could have been President FFS!
Where nationalist parties are on the rise everywhere...in direct contrast to here.
Have a day off you miserable nay-saying c*nts.
This is a cock up, pure and simple.
Bureaucratic nonsense.
It has already been put right.
When it was pointed out by various interested parties a couple of years ago that the policy (implemented in May's time as Home Sec) would lead to some Windrush immigrants being caught mistakenly in the net, I imagine someone behind a desk pondering it and replying "no, of course not...they will have been naturalised and will gain full citizenship or 'right to stay' no bother...our lot aren't that fecking stupid, they'll sort it out".
The problem is that there are an awful lot of idiots who work for the state. [Post edited 17 Apr 2018 1:33]
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Theresa May (as Home Secretary) announces the "hostile environment" policy.
Theresa May (as Home Secretary) orders destruction of windrush landing cards, despite repeated warnings of what that meant in the context of her "hostile environment" policy.
That's no cock up, that's akin to a deliberate act of ethnic cleansing. Either that or she was too stupid to realise that these people would have no proof of their date of landing in the UK.
Either way she should resign. |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| Windrush on 00:27 - Apr 19 with 3600 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Windrush on 21:34 - Apr 18 by oh_tommy_tommy |
Always nails it ,sees it coming
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Half the hypocrites on here chastising Corbyn for not acting quickly enough to dispel anti semitism/Zionism in the labour party are most likely fully on board with St Theresa on this one. | |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| Windrush on 00:52 - Apr 19 with 3593 views | Kerouac |
| Windrush on 18:26 - Apr 18 by londonlisa2001 |
Do you find it impossible to refer to a woman you don't like without using the term 'bitch'?
She didn't lie on this point. Corbyn asked her was it true that she as Home Secretary ordered the destruction of the cards and she said no, the decision (note decision) was taken in 2009 under a Labour government (which it turns out it was). It appears that the decision was made in reference to an office move, was always operational, and I can't believe for one second the Home Secretary (Alan Johnson I think?) knew what was being destroyed and what wasn't.
The records were 50 or so years old, and no one would have assumed that they couldn't be destroyed.
But you can't blame May personally when you think it's the Home Office under her, and then not Johnson personally because it's him. It's double standards.
The issue with this particular aspect is that Corbyn forgot the cardinal rule that you don't ask a question to which you do not know the answer, otherwise you look like a complete idiot.
It's all masking the genuine issue, which seems to relate to a decision made in 2014 to remove a protection that existed for commonwealth residents. The understanding seems to be that no one realised the impact it would have, as it is a situation that on the face of it was covered elsewhere, but some have fallen through the gaps because a catch all was removed.
The whole situation is a disgrace, but the more you hear, the more it seems like utter incompetence. |
So, what I said  |  |
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| Windrush on 00:59 - Apr 19 with 3586 views | Kerouac |
| Windrush on 00:19 - Apr 19 by Brynmill_Jack |
Theresa May (as Home Secretary) announces the "hostile environment" policy.
Theresa May (as Home Secretary) orders destruction of windrush landing cards, despite repeated warnings of what that meant in the context of her "hostile environment" policy.
That's no cock up, that's akin to a deliberate act of ethnic cleansing. Either that or she was too stupid to realise that these people would have no proof of their date of landing in the UK.
Either way she should resign. |
"ethnic cleansing"
...are you for real?
Actually, don't answer that. | |
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| Windrush on 06:51 - Apr 19 with 3539 views | Lohengrin |
| Windrush on 21:34 - Apr 18 by oh_tommy_tommy |
Always nails it ,sees it coming
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Let’s be clear, Tom, the debate in 2014 was about stripping UK citizenship from those who had gone overseas to fight for ISIS. |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Windrush on 07:07 - Apr 19 with 3532 views | Lohengrin |
| Windrush on 21:30 - Apr 18 by Kilkennyjack |
Or maybe it wasn’t ....? 😂
Home Office Tues, 5pm: Decision to dispose of Windrush 'registration slips' was taken by UK Border Agency in 2010.
PM tells MPs, Weds 1210pm: Decision was taken by Labour in 2009.
PM's spokesperson, Weds, 1240pm: "Operational decision was by UKBA"ie not by Lab ministers.
Who knows ?
Irrespective, the treatment of these good people and our fellow citizens has been truly appalling. |
The unwillingness of a department head to put his or her hand up over this is pathetic, Killy.
I can tell you what has happened here with a degree of certainty. Documents such as these will have been boxed with a disposal review date appended with the caveat that relevant bodies be informed prior to shredding. Provided the body, in this case the UKBA (a recent construct) has no objection then the files are removed. It would be no surprise to discover that administrators at the UKBA regarded sixty-year-old bits of card as not worth retaining. Let’s be honest, who would?
A question I’ve not heard asked is are the carrier ship passenger manifests still on file somewhere? | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Windrush on 07:14 - Apr 19 with 3531 views | AnotherJohn |
| Windrush on 21:12 - Apr 18 by exiledclaseboy |
“Clase and Lisa were asking how hospitals establish eligibility for treatment.”
No we weren’t. We were wondering what prompts a hospital to decide to seek proof of someone’s eligibility. None of the guidelines cover that and they certainly don’t ask everyone. |
Well, I am sorry that you did not find my post helpful.
It seemed to me that the question about what triggered questioning had to be understood in the context of the process of establishing eligibility as laid down in guidance. I did preface my post by saying that guidance may or may not reflect the on-the-ground reality, but it is relevant to the issue of whether people were treated fairly. I also tried to clarify a point that Lisa had raised about what 'ordinarily resident' meant.
I would have thought the following are relevant to your question:
"All patients must be assessed against the test for ordinary residence in the UK. (...) All relevant bodies must comply with their legal duties when asking questions of patients. In
particular, they must avoid discriminatory measures and must not practice racial or
nationality profiling to identify chargeable patients or cherry-pick which patients to question."
"All patients accessing the Trust on each occasion, must be asked by the staff
dealing with the administration of the appointment, the question ‘Have you lived
in the United Kingdom for the last 12 months’?. Anyone answering no to the
question must be given the Establishing Entitlement to NHS Treatment Form to
complete" (something Lisa picked up).
Obviously you suspect that the guidance has not been followed (and are probably correct), but it is wrong to suggest that it says nothing about how patients should be approached vis-a-vis eligibility. [Post edited 19 Apr 2018 7:26]
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| Windrush on 11:07 - Apr 19 with 3472 views | theloneranger |
| Windrush on 07:14 - Apr 19 by AnotherJohn |
Well, I am sorry that you did not find my post helpful.
It seemed to me that the question about what triggered questioning had to be understood in the context of the process of establishing eligibility as laid down in guidance. I did preface my post by saying that guidance may or may not reflect the on-the-ground reality, but it is relevant to the issue of whether people were treated fairly. I also tried to clarify a point that Lisa had raised about what 'ordinarily resident' meant.
I would have thought the following are relevant to your question:
"All patients must be assessed against the test for ordinary residence in the UK. (...) All relevant bodies must comply with their legal duties when asking questions of patients. In
particular, they must avoid discriminatory measures and must not practice racial or
nationality profiling to identify chargeable patients or cherry-pick which patients to question."
"All patients accessing the Trust on each occasion, must be asked by the staff
dealing with the administration of the appointment, the question ‘Have you lived
in the United Kingdom for the last 12 months’?. Anyone answering no to the
question must be given the Establishing Entitlement to NHS Treatment Form to
complete" (something Lisa picked up).
Obviously you suspect that the guidance has not been followed (and are probably correct), but it is wrong to suggest that it says nothing about how patients should be approached vis-a-vis eligibility. [Post edited 19 Apr 2018 7:26]
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Either something is already written on their NHS file when they answer Yes to the 12 month question,
Or they are being subjected to " racial or nationality profiling to identify chargeable patients or cherry-pick which patients to question."p
I suspect their cards are already marked, as they are at the DVLA, because they are being notified by the DVLA that their driving licences are no longer valid. | |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| Windrush on 11:08 - Apr 19 with 3470 views | Ebo |
| Windrush on 14:20 - Apr 18 by sherpajacob |
The decision to destroy the landing cards would, and should, be irrelevant if the dog whistle hostile environment hadn't been implemented.
Like a Dutch friend of mine and his concerns over brexit, he's lived here, paying a lot of tax, for a number of years, but hasn't kept records of every trip into and out of the UK because there was no need to. Now he's worried about how he can prove any length of residence. |
It's not JVZ is it?  |  |
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| Windrush on 11:09 - Apr 19 with 3469 views | Ebo |
It's rather quiet here on this thread without the resident Conservatives on this forum posting on it. I wonder why? | |
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| Windrush on 11:13 - Apr 19 with 3467 views | sherpajacob |
| Windrush on 06:51 - Apr 19 by Lohengrin |
Let’s be clear, Tom, the debate in 2014 was about stripping UK citizenship from those who had gone overseas to fight for ISIS. |
in that case, it was a shoddily drafted piece of legislation, because as warned, it has resulted in British Citizens being denied their basic rights.
The minister responsible for the act was clearly incompetent. |  |
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| Windrush on 16:33 - Apr 19 with 3410 views | Loyal |
| Windrush on 19:20 - Apr 18 by theloneranger |
Thanks.
There were 60 Poles on the Windrush also, I wonder what happens if they or their decendants turn up at a NHS hospital for treatment. |
Put flags on them ? |  |
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The official inventor of the tit w@nk. | | Poll: | Who should be Swansea number 1 |
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| Windrush on 17:18 - Apr 19 with 3391 views | theloneranger |
| Windrush on 16:33 - Apr 19 by Loyal |
Put flags on them ? |
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| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| Windrush on 22:03 - Apr 19 with 3333 views | Gowerjack |
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| Windrush on 10:26 - Apr 20 with 3220 views | felixstowe_jack |
The decision to destroy the landing cards for Windrush migrants was taken under Labour, former home secretary Alan Johnson has said.
Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency."
On Wednesday, Mr Corbyn accused the government of being "callous and incompetent" and asked if Mrs May, then home secretary, had "signed off" on the decision which was now "causing such pain and such stress to a whole generation" of Windrush migrants. She replied that the decision had been taken under the previous Labour government in 2009.
Mr Johnson suggested that Mr Corbyn had been "misled" over the issue: "The previous evening, as I understand it..
! Oh dear seems Mr Corbyn had been lied to by his advisors or he misled Parliament. Now wonder 50 Labour voted against him on his proposition regarding Syria ! | |
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| Windrush on 10:50 - Apr 20 with 3204 views | Kerouac |
| Windrush on 10:26 - Apr 20 by felixstowe_jack |
The decision to destroy the landing cards for Windrush migrants was taken under Labour, former home secretary Alan Johnson has said.
Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency."
On Wednesday, Mr Corbyn accused the government of being "callous and incompetent" and asked if Mrs May, then home secretary, had "signed off" on the decision which was now "causing such pain and such stress to a whole generation" of Windrush migrants. She replied that the decision had been taken under the previous Labour government in 2009.
Mr Johnson suggested that Mr Corbyn had been "misled" over the issue: "The previous evening, as I understand it..
! Oh dear seems Mr Corbyn had been lied to by his advisors or he misled Parliament. Now wonder 50 Labour voted against him on his proposition regarding Syria ! |
I wonder what bullshit will be concocted to explain this one away. | |
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| Windrush on 11:02 - Apr 20 with 3192 views | omarjack |
wow.."make Britain great again" where did I hear these words before..? |  |
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| Windrush on 11:04 - Apr 20 with 3187 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| Windrush on 10:26 - Apr 20 by felixstowe_jack |
The decision to destroy the landing cards for Windrush migrants was taken under Labour, former home secretary Alan Johnson has said.
Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency."
On Wednesday, Mr Corbyn accused the government of being "callous and incompetent" and asked if Mrs May, then home secretary, had "signed off" on the decision which was now "causing such pain and such stress to a whole generation" of Windrush migrants. She replied that the decision had been taken under the previous Labour government in 2009.
Mr Johnson suggested that Mr Corbyn had been "misled" over the issue: "The previous evening, as I understand it..
! Oh dear seems Mr Corbyn had been lied to by his advisors or he misled Parliament. Now wonder 50 Labour voted against him on his proposition regarding Syria ! |
Earth to Felixstowe
Earth to Felixstowe
Come in Felixstowe | |
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| Windrush on 11:17 - Apr 20 with 3175 views | Batterseajack |
| Windrush on 10:26 - Apr 20 by felixstowe_jack |
The decision to destroy the landing cards for Windrush migrants was taken under Labour, former home secretary Alan Johnson has said.
Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency."
On Wednesday, Mr Corbyn accused the government of being "callous and incompetent" and asked if Mrs May, then home secretary, had "signed off" on the decision which was now "causing such pain and such stress to a whole generation" of Windrush migrants. She replied that the decision had been taken under the previous Labour government in 2009.
Mr Johnson suggested that Mr Corbyn had been "misled" over the issue: "The previous evening, as I understand it..
! Oh dear seems Mr Corbyn had been lied to by his advisors or he misled Parliament. Now wonder 50 Labour voted against him on his proposition regarding Syria ! |
Prior to the immigration act of 2014 (Under T-May and Nick Timothy) the landing cards being destroyed didn't really matter, which is why the border force decided the destroy them. So presumably knowing that the landing cards were being destroyed whilst under her tenure as home secretary, she introduced this act which deported people that couldn't demonstrate their place of birth or right to be here. She was warned at the time that people such as the Windrush lot would be affected. She either knew what she was doing and didn't care so she could hit her 10's of thousands drop in net migration target, or didn't believe the warnings and had no idea that legitimate Britons would be impacted by it.
Either way she should take her own advice on this;
[Post edited 20 Apr 2018 11:25]
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| Windrush on 17:22 - Apr 20 with 3103 views | Loyal |
| Windrush on 11:17 - Apr 20 by Batterseajack |
Prior to the immigration act of 2014 (Under T-May and Nick Timothy) the landing cards being destroyed didn't really matter, which is why the border force decided the destroy them. So presumably knowing that the landing cards were being destroyed whilst under her tenure as home secretary, she introduced this act which deported people that couldn't demonstrate their place of birth or right to be here. She was warned at the time that people such as the Windrush lot would be affected. She either knew what she was doing and didn't care so she could hit her 10's of thousands drop in net migration target, or didn't believe the warnings and had no idea that legitimate Britons would be impacted by it.
Either way she should take her own advice on this;
[Post edited 20 Apr 2018 11:25]
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I think 2004 was Theresa May at her fckable finest. | |
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