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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:07 - Jul 16 by daveB
apart from the final we had more possession in this tournament than Spain
What these statistics don't reveal is that the vast majority of England's possession was in the middle third of the pitch as we passed sideways and backwards.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:18 - Jul 16 with 1644 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:58 - Jul 16 by Northernr
One thing I do find curious is the whole Southgate reign was born out of the blueprint set by Dan Ashworth when he was at the FA - since Brighton, Newcastle and now going to Man Utd it seems.
They basically wrote down everything they wanted England to be, and within that blueprint was this line... "England teams aim to intelligently dominate possession selecting the right moments to progress the play and penetrate the opposition. England teams aim to regain possession intelligently and as early and as efficiently as possible."
You could see that early in Southgate's reign but we do seem to have gone away from it towards being one of those team that's happy to only have 30-40% of the ball, sit deep, absorb pressure, be very defensive - like a budget Mourinho tribute act.
I'd love to know why they've done that, was it deliberate, what drove them to change? Players? Opposition? Over caution? Or, as Southgate seems to intimate, it's the players that do it subconsciously, and he doesn't want them to do that.
I wonder if, for English players to play to their full potential, they need foreign players playing alongside them. A dilemma when it comes to international football!
As we saw ourselves in the second half of our season, the arrival of Andersen was our equivalent of the second coming. A player whose instinct was to play forward, not only play forward but move forward rather than standing and admiring his contribution. Suddenly a whole raft of previous disappointments blossomed into something reminiscent of professional footballers.
Foden seems a classic example of this, outstanding in a Man City side of like minded players but unrecognisable in the international side. Too many English pkayers are coached in % passing, it’s rife in the game. It’s why the Gerry Francis’s have all but disappeared. Gerry played without fear, never afraid to risk losing the ball, that sort of thing has been coached out in the England set up.
Movement, or the lack of, in English players, particularly when off the ball is awful and has been for a long time.
This is one of the reasons expansive coaches need to rule the roost in development and national coaching. Beyond Klopp it’s hard to see anyone having the charisma to carry that off.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:24 - Jul 16 with 1618 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 10:58 - Jul 16 by Northernr
One thing I do find curious is the whole Southgate reign was born out of the blueprint set by Dan Ashworth when he was at the FA - since Brighton, Newcastle and now going to Man Utd it seems.
They basically wrote down everything they wanted England to be, and within that blueprint was this line... "England teams aim to intelligently dominate possession selecting the right moments to progress the play and penetrate the opposition. England teams aim to regain possession intelligently and as early and as efficiently as possible."
You could see that early in Southgate's reign but we do seem to have gone away from it towards being one of those team that's happy to only have 30-40% of the ball, sit deep, absorb pressure, be very defensive - like a budget Mourinho tribute act.
I'd love to know why they've done that, was it deliberate, what drove them to change? Players? Opposition? Over caution? Or, as Southgate seems to intimate, it's the players that do it subconsciously, and he doesn't want them to do that.
Obviously I don't know the answer as to why players are more cautious than we'd like as I'm not in the team set up.
I also don't think Southgate's been slaughtered particularly compared to many other past England managers. I do think that he's had some valid criticism and I don't think that's unreasonable despite us getting to the final/semis of tournaments. After all it's not just England fans that have voiced the same things.
I do think he's a naturally cautious person. In some ways his qualities have been valuable as I think the players like and trust him. He's clearly been brilliant at healing divisions between different club factions. He's also delivered on the penalty taking issues we've had in the past.
That being said I think he's shown by little behaviours, like delaying substitutions, by not playing different players in that Slovenia game, by his body language on the sidelines that he's more safety first and not 100% confident. I'm sure those things communicate themselves to the players to be more worried about making a mistake than committed to doing something great.
I also don't think you can look at this England team and see that there's a tactical mastermind involved. If you compare QPR with Gareth and Marti you can see the difference a clear vision makes. England just doesn't look to me like a team where everyone knows their jobs and who they're supposed to be covering if someone makes a run out of postiion etc. My theory is that not being certain makes footballers nervous. I think they actually might like being told what to do and where to be.
This doesn't make me a Southgate-hater or other thing that anyone who has any disagreement with how he does things is called. I think he's achieved a lot and maybe someone else would have other shortcomings in areas that Gareth has strengths but I'd like to see someone with a fresh approach personally.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:26 - Jul 16 with 1599 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:11 - Jul 16 by daveB
And yet despite him being so dreadful, out of his depth, and having no plan he was a penalty kick away from winning it 3 years ago and lost this one to a late goal before his team came very close to equalising.
Good luck to the next fella meeting your expectations.
Come on Dave the final three years ago should never have gone to extra time let alone penalties.
That game was the epitome of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and on home soil!
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:30 - Jul 16 with 1578 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:24 - Jul 16 by nix
Obviously I don't know the answer as to why players are more cautious than we'd like as I'm not in the team set up.
I also don't think Southgate's been slaughtered particularly compared to many other past England managers. I do think that he's had some valid criticism and I don't think that's unreasonable despite us getting to the final/semis of tournaments. After all it's not just England fans that have voiced the same things.
I do think he's a naturally cautious person. In some ways his qualities have been valuable as I think the players like and trust him. He's clearly been brilliant at healing divisions between different club factions. He's also delivered on the penalty taking issues we've had in the past.
That being said I think he's shown by little behaviours, like delaying substitutions, by not playing different players in that Slovenia game, by his body language on the sidelines that he's more safety first and not 100% confident. I'm sure those things communicate themselves to the players to be more worried about making a mistake than committed to doing something great.
I also don't think you can look at this England team and see that there's a tactical mastermind involved. If you compare QPR with Gareth and Marti you can see the difference a clear vision makes. England just doesn't look to me like a team where everyone knows their jobs and who they're supposed to be covering if someone makes a run out of postiion etc. My theory is that not being certain makes footballers nervous. I think they actually might like being told what to do and where to be.
This doesn't make me a Southgate-hater or other thing that anyone who has any disagreement with how he does things is called. I think he's achieved a lot and maybe someone else would have other shortcomings in areas that Gareth has strengths but I'd like to see someone with a fresh approach personally.
‘I also don't think Southgate's been slaughtered particularly compared to many other past England managers’
There is LSE research that says otherwise. Just saw a response to that announcement saying ‘Hitler Dead’.
Appreciate it’s the extreme end of things but definitely more prevalent.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:32 - Jul 16 with 1572 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:30 - Jul 16 by BazzaInTheLoft
‘I also don't think Southgate's been slaughtered particularly compared to many other past England managers’
There is LSE research that says otherwise. Just saw a response to that announcement saying ‘Hitler Dead’.
Appreciate it’s the extreme end of things but definitely more prevalent.
I think it just comes in different form now. Now you get Twitter pile ons. In the past you got the newspapers superimposing your head onto vegetables. One of the points in that Times piece I linked to, from a French journo, is that when the French fail the blame and analysis focuses on the players and the manager, whereas in England it's all, always the manager.
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:32 - Jul 16 by Northernr
I think it just comes in different form now. Now you get Twitter pile ons. In the past you got the newspapers superimposing your head onto vegetables. One of the points in that Times piece I linked to, from a French journo, is that when the French fail the blame and analysis focuses on the players and the manager, whereas in England it's all, always the manager.
Yeah I think you are right.
The motivations are different though. The Turnip was to sell papers, the orchestrated SM algorithms are to make more of a political point.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:35 - Jul 16 with 1533 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:15 - Jul 16 by rbee
What these statistics don't reveal is that the vast majority of England's possession was in the middle third of the pitch as we passed sideways and backwards.
yeah and lets be honest thats where most teams with the most possession have it, last world cup Spain dominated the ball but didn't really threaten much, as with all these stats they tell the story you want them to tell. I found that stat on England possession surprising as it didn't feel like that watching but you can find stats this tournament to paint England as dreadful or brilliant depending on what narrative you want to go with. Truth as always is somewhere in between the two extremes
[Post edited 16 Jul 11:36]
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:38 - Jul 16 with 1514 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:20 - Jul 16 by stevec
I wonder if, for English players to play to their full potential, they need foreign players playing alongside them. A dilemma when it comes to international football!
As we saw ourselves in the second half of our season, the arrival of Andersen was our equivalent of the second coming. A player whose instinct was to play forward, not only play forward but move forward rather than standing and admiring his contribution. Suddenly a whole raft of previous disappointments blossomed into something reminiscent of professional footballers.
Foden seems a classic example of this, outstanding in a Man City side of like minded players but unrecognisable in the international side. Too many English pkayers are coached in % passing, it’s rife in the game. It’s why the Gerry Francis’s have all but disappeared. Gerry played without fear, never afraid to risk losing the ball, that sort of thing has been coached out in the England set up.
Movement, or the lack of, in English players, particularly when off the ball is awful and has been for a long time.
This is one of the reasons expansive coaches need to rule the roost in development and national coaching. Beyond Klopp it’s hard to see anyone having the charisma to carry that off.
Nail on the head here. You go back to Lampard and Gerrard brilliant for their clubs but for England they didn't have Xavi Alonso or Claude Makelele next to them
Same with Foden he doesn't have Rodri and De Bryune or Haaland next to him so is never going to look as good. Doesn't make them bad players but the impact they have for club is always more difficult to replicate for country
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:40 - Jul 16 with 1495 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:35 - Jul 16 by daveB
yeah and lets be honest thats where most teams with the most possession have it, last world cup Spain dominated the ball but didn't really threaten much, as with all these stats they tell the story you want them to tell. I found that stat on England possession surprising as it didn't feel like that watching but you can find stats this tournament to paint England as dreadful or brilliant depending on what narrative you want to go with. Truth as always is somewhere in between the two extremes
[Post edited 16 Jul 11:36]
I totally agree with you Dave. Such statistics can be twisted any which way you like, politicians are very inventive with statistics!
Personally I pay little attention to possession stats for the reason I already highlighted.
A better statistic that can't be twisted is that for all our possession we scored eight goals in seven games.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:53 - Jul 16 with 1417 views
I'm off on holiday tomorrow (i mean why did i book 2 weeks in Spain, the bastards) so you'll all be thrilled to know I won't be boring you with all this for a while but for me football is about creating memories and moments that live with you forever. You think of our club do we look back at 1975/76 and say well we came second and Dave Sexton is a clown for not beating Norwich or do we remember that team, the great days they gave fans with fondness.
Beating Arsenal on that wet night in the FA Cup with Sinton scored, does it matter we went out 2 rounds later or does that night still live with those of us who were there.
That Bobby Zamora moment, was it made any less special because the XG stats said we should have lost
I could go on but supporting England has always been about those moments where everyone comes together and celebrates together. From Pearce's penalty in 96, Owens goal in 98, Beckhams free kick v Greece, the shoot out win over Colombia, the wins over Germany and Denmark in Euro 2020, that bellingham over head kick, the last minuet watkins goal, that Saka penalty against the Swiss, amazing moments that I look back on and can feel the joy I felt in those moments and want more of it. The fact we didn't win any of those tournaments doesn't take away those amazing memories.
Many will say he won nothing he's a fraud etc and I do get the frustration with not getting over the line but football is about more than numbers and trophies, it's creating moments and memories and we've had a lot of good ones under Southgate
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 12:06 - Jul 16 with 1316 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:38 - Jul 16 by daveB
Nail on the head here. You go back to Lampard and Gerrard brilliant for their clubs but for England they didn't have Xavi Alonso or Claude Makelele next to them
Same with Foden he doesn't have Rodri and De Bryune or Haaland next to him so is never going to look as good. Doesn't make them bad players but the impact they have for club is always more difficult to replicate for country
Cuts both ways. Those players aren't as effective in their national teams without Foden alongside them. There's a reason why Foden, Stones, Walker and Bellingham play for the best club teams in the world.
I'd still argue the current England crop are one of the best squads in the world. We just have to find a formula so they can show it.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 12:51 - Jul 16 with 1149 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:57 - Jul 16 by daveB
I'm off on holiday tomorrow (i mean why did i book 2 weeks in Spain, the bastards) so you'll all be thrilled to know I won't be boring you with all this for a while but for me football is about creating memories and moments that live with you forever. You think of our club do we look back at 1975/76 and say well we came second and Dave Sexton is a clown for not beating Norwich or do we remember that team, the great days they gave fans with fondness.
Beating Arsenal on that wet night in the FA Cup with Sinton scored, does it matter we went out 2 rounds later or does that night still live with those of us who were there.
That Bobby Zamora moment, was it made any less special because the XG stats said we should have lost
I could go on but supporting England has always been about those moments where everyone comes together and celebrates together. From Pearce's penalty in 96, Owens goal in 98, Beckhams free kick v Greece, the shoot out win over Colombia, the wins over Germany and Denmark in Euro 2020, that bellingham over head kick, the last minuet watkins goal, that Saka penalty against the Swiss, amazing moments that I look back on and can feel the joy I felt in those moments and want more of it. The fact we didn't win any of those tournaments doesn't take away those amazing memories.
Many will say he won nothing he's a fraud etc and I do get the frustration with not getting over the line but football is about more than numbers and trophies, it's creating moments and memories and we've had a lot of good ones under Southgate
It feels to me there are many people who see football as an absolute.... win or don't win. To them it's a 'results business' and anything else is irrelevant.
For me, I'm the same as you, I want to enjoy it and remember the moments. I have a pretty good memory recall but it needs those moments to create them.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 13:12 - Jul 16 with 1076 views
Whoever the next manager is, you can pretty much guarantee that in two years’ time when we’re having the post mortem on Englands failure to win the trophy, it’ll be all the same stuff - the wrong players in the wrong positions with the wrong tactics and the wrong substitutions. Same as it ever was.
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 12:58 - Jul 16 by Juzzie
It feels to me there are many people who see football as an absolute.... win or don't win. To them it's a 'results business' and anything else is irrelevant.
For me, I'm the same as you, I want to enjoy it and remember the moments. I have a pretty good memory recall but it needs those moments to create them.
Well we don't have the trophies to enjoy so we might as well enjoy the memories!
1. Leaving out Madison and Grealish. Both players that on their day can open up defences. Wharton and Gallagher in their place. Ridiculous 2. Taking an injured left back and not having cover in that position 3. Playing players out of position. Eze is not a left winger or a full back. Trippier?? 4. Keeping Kane in the team - he has been an amazing finisher in his day but so out of form. He made more runs running over to moan to the ref. He gave the midfield no options to play him in so they just settled in playing it out wide to a static Saka. That was the single tactic they could offer in all the games. 5. No pace in the team England were bang average and fortunate to get to the final. Were we actually better than any of the teams we "beat"
IMO Spain were the standout team in a competition that was fairly low standard with so many under-performing teams. Spain went for it and it paid off.
Let's bring back Kevin Keegan and we might win a few games 6-5 or draw 4-4. I would tune in to watch.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 17:58 - Jul 16 with 1307 views
Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 11:32 - Jul 16 by Northernr
I think it just comes in different form now. Now you get Twitter pile ons. In the past you got the newspapers superimposing your head onto vegetables. One of the points in that Times piece I linked to, from a French journo, is that when the French fail the blame and analysis focuses on the players and the manager, whereas in England it's all, always the manager.
Unless you're black and miss a penalty.
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Did Southgate's tactics cost England? on 18:22 - Jul 16 with 1236 views
The problem going forward is most competitions are getting bigger like these Euro's and Champions League so by the time we play tournaments we have knackered players. The likes of Bellingham and Kane looked like they had run out of steam. The last World Cup in Qatar we did OK but it was played mid season.
The next manager only has two years to prepare for the World Cup in a country that will be hot and a lot of travelling involved. This will suit Argentina and Brazil more than us so it is difficult to see us winning that trophy in 2026 even with a top manager.
England have spurned two Euro finals and certainly the Wembley game with an ageing Italy was the golden opportunity to lift a trophy in conditions that suit us. We have been too cagey in 2021 and 2024 playing with the brakes on. As soon as we play a European giant in football terms we lose.
Perhaps we would have won in Berlin if France beat Spain in the semi as the French under performed and stuttered like we did through the games. Spain won it as the only consistent performers throughout.
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