| Euro 2024 17:49 - Dec 2 with 14771 views | Juzzie |
England in Group C along with;
Slovenia
Denmark
Serbia
Scotland in a tough group;
Germany
Hungary
Switzerland
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| Euro 2024 on 10:15 - Dec 3 with 2077 views | GaryBannister86 |
| Euro 2024 on 10:04 - Dec 3 by paulparker |
So Venables was lucky and Southgate hasn’t been ??
Southgate had the draw of a lifetime in 2018 and blew it with that 2nd half against Croatia
The team wasn’t in his words believing in themselves against France
And he lost to a very pedestrian Italy in the final of Euro 2020
He has had his chances but his lack of management gameplan has cost us when it matters
The great managers get over the line when it comes to the crunch and Southgate isn’t a great manager
This is his last chance with England in a tournament maybe he will go all guns blazing or he will play it safe with Kalvin phillips and Henderson clogging up the midfield, I know what my money is on |
Not what I said. What I said was if you criticise Southgate for being lucky then if you don't think the same of El Tel or Robson then it is ridiculous.
Come back to me when Southgate has left, some massive name is our manager and we fail to get out of group stages because the players fear it again.
ie most tournaments after 96 and before Southgate. |  | | |
| Euro 2024 on 10:15 - Dec 3 with 2077 views | Northernr |
Both things can be true.
Statistically, results, tournament finishes, he's one of our best ever managers. "Oh yeh but he's been blessed with a great squad of players"... well look at the bloody squad Eriksson had, and what he did with it.
But, also, he was caught out being too cautious against Croatia and Italy in big moments. I discount France, personally. They're a great team, we were right with them all the way, the game is settled on a defensive clearance made at one end and not the other, and us missing a penalty. Not Southgate's fault at all that one, just one of those things.
It's nuanced, right? One thing I've really liked about his reign is he's made it more like a club squad where it's the same group of players all the time, so they can foster a group mentsality and a proper style of play. It's really difficult to break into the group (he kept Grealish and Madison waiting ages when the press were baying) but it's also really difficult to fall out of - he'll keep faith with you a long time.
That, to my mind, was one of the great strengths of certain German squads in the recent past, and Spain. It helped them conquer the Barca v Real rivalries in the squad, and for England it's got rid of that Man Utd v the world mentality that Ferguson insisted upon - all sitting at separate tables etc. There's now a great togetherness and spirit about England which Southgate is responsible for prioritising, fostering and building. It's certainly a lot more effective than all of his predecessors just chopping and changing and slinging whoever's had a few good Prem games in there. We went to South Africa not even knowing who the bloody goalkeeper would be, and look how that went.
But, at the same time, as all managers do when they're lucky enough to be in the job a long time (see Holloway towards the end of his first spell here) he is becoming a bit obstinate, stubborn, with logic-defying favourites, and tying himself in knots with his reasons and justifications. We're leaving Sterling out because his club form isn't good, but Phillips gets picked despite never playing for his club, Maguire is in despite playing like a complete cnt for 18 months, and Henderson is in despite being 33 and playing Conference North standard football in front of 600 people. He's basically picking Maguire now, even in friendly games where you think maybe take him out of the firing line and have a look at somebody out, it feels to me as a 'fck you I'm in charge' sort of attitude.
So we'll see how the tournament goes. I fear he might have gone on a tournament too long. He seemed to be minded to resign and then got talked out of it, which isn't great. But then, Bellingham fit, Kane fit, Maguire pulls his hamstring, Henderson turns his Grindr on and gets locked up, we've got a hell of a chance. Fascinating summer ahead, I'm genuinely excited about it.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| Euro 2024 on 10:32 - Dec 3 with 2043 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
A reminder, before the myth that Gareth always had a wonderful pool of talent to choose from, that he started v Croatia with Ashley Young, Jessie Lingard, and Deli Alli in his starting XI and Fabian Delph, Phil Jones on the bench.
We were not blessed in 2018 and the semis were an incredible achievement. |  | | |
| Euro 2024 on 10:50 - Dec 3 with 2022 views | Ned_Kennedys |
| Euro 2024 on 09:04 - Dec 3 by GaryBannister86 |
Spot on, the job Southgate has done has been incredible and he has delivered with results.
You can't mark against him for being "lucky" to have great players or lucky draws or whatever - what drivel. If he hadn't come along half those players wouldn't have even wanted or be bothered to play for England. His work in getting the players into it rather the fearing it has been magnificent.
To say he is miles behind Ramsey, Venables and Robson is a joke. Ramsey, yes, cos he won a world cup. Robson, if you take the approach you criticise Southgate for, was absolute rubbish for most of his reign, had the "luck" of Gazza and Lineker and Waddle etc, and even in Italia 90 we were awful against N Ireland, Egypt, even Cameroon.
El Tel, as much as I loved him, you can do the same. Rubbish / lucky against Scotland, average in first two games needed penalty shootout against Spain etc.
Why pick holes in a man who has got England to the latter stages of major tournaments? Ridiculous and so typical of England football fans. It will be alright when he dies though, suddenly everyone will bang on about how amazing he was. |
Yeah you’re right: you’ve proved he’s a far better manager than Bobby Robson and Terry Venables 😂
He will not get a single decent managerial offer when he at last leaves the England job: maybe an offer from Major League Soccer as they think Phil Neville is worth a punt but more likely another role with the FA as they of course love him.
People like you will be saying ‘job well done’ if we get knocked out by Croatia or Portugal in the semi final: each to their own I guess. |  | | |
| Euro 2024 on 10:56 - Dec 3 with 2008 views | Ned_Kennedys |
| Euro 2024 on 08:20 - Dec 3 by traininvain |
It’s all a bit bizarre. Best record of any England manager since Sir Alf Ramsey and following in the footsteps of the likes of Hodgson, Capello and Sven who arguably had better options at their disposal (see 2004/2006 squads).
It’s been a massive improvement over the past few years and given us some of the happiest memories watching England. We’ve come closer to winning tournaments than any other time I’ve been alive.
But anyone would think we had decades of success before Southgate came along and underachieved by regularly getting us to the latter stages of tournaments with world class talents such as Ashley Young, Eric Dier, Jesse Lingard, Danny Rose and Mason Mount.
I count three genuine world class players in the England squad; Kane, Walker and Bellingham who only joined that group over the last six months or so. A few knocking on the door (Foden, Rice, Stones etc) but not exactly blessed with options in defence which is our Achilles heel.
France have a better squad imo (and the bookmakers) and we’re similar in quality to Portugal and Spain but some fans seem to think we have a divine right to win every tournament.
Nevertheless, we have a great chance at Euro 2024 with the squad looking stronger than the last couple of tournaments and most of them now have big tournament experience which will prove helpful.
It’s a shame to see so much negativity before a ball has even been kicked, we should be getting behind this team and looking forward to it all. I know I will be anyway. |
“But anyone would think we had decades of success before Southgate came along and underachieved by regularly getting us to the latter stages of tournaments with world class talents such as Ashley Young, Eric Dier, Jesse Lingard, Danny Rose and Mason Mount.”
You know that Southgate selected those players for his squads right? The same way he keeps picking players not playing any league football, players out of form and Jordan Henderson? | | | |
| Euro 2024 on 11:06 - Dec 3 with 1996 views | Ned_Kennedys |
| Euro 2024 on 10:32 - Dec 3 by BazzaInTheLoft |
A reminder, before the myth that Gareth always had a wonderful pool of talent to choose from, that he started v Croatia with Ashley Young, Jessie Lingard, and Deli Alli in his starting XI and Fabian Delph, Phil Jones on the bench.
We were not blessed in 2018 and the semis were an incredible achievement. |
He selected those players: his choices.
Or are you saying the English talent pool was utterly sh!t just 5 years ago and they were the very best players available to him?
Ready for your glib reply to name better players who could have been selected instead: I won’t be doing so as I have more important things to do 😉 | | | |
| Euro 2024 on 11:16 - Dec 3 with 1974 views | SydneyRs |
The one thing that makes me believe England are about to win a tournament, if not this one then soon, is Jude Bellingham. This guy is just something else, the kind of player that carries his team to trophies and makes those around him better. I'm not sure we've ever had anyone quite like him. He has it all and will be around for a long time. |  | | |
| Euro 2024 on 11:18 - Dec 3 with 1969 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Euro 2024 on 11:06 - Dec 3 by Ned_Kennedys |
He selected those players: his choices.
Or are you saying the English talent pool was utterly sh!t just 5 years ago and they were the very best players available to him?
Ready for your glib reply to name better players who could have been selected instead: I won’t be doing so as I have more important things to do 😉 |
I don’t need to say anything, you’ve made my point for me! 😆 | | | |
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| Euro 2024 on 11:22 - Dec 3 with 1966 views | traininvain |
| Euro 2024 on 10:15 - Dec 3 by Northernr |
Both things can be true.
Statistically, results, tournament finishes, he's one of our best ever managers. "Oh yeh but he's been blessed with a great squad of players"... well look at the bloody squad Eriksson had, and what he did with it.
But, also, he was caught out being too cautious against Croatia and Italy in big moments. I discount France, personally. They're a great team, we were right with them all the way, the game is settled on a defensive clearance made at one end and not the other, and us missing a penalty. Not Southgate's fault at all that one, just one of those things.
It's nuanced, right? One thing I've really liked about his reign is he's made it more like a club squad where it's the same group of players all the time, so they can foster a group mentsality and a proper style of play. It's really difficult to break into the group (he kept Grealish and Madison waiting ages when the press were baying) but it's also really difficult to fall out of - he'll keep faith with you a long time.
That, to my mind, was one of the great strengths of certain German squads in the recent past, and Spain. It helped them conquer the Barca v Real rivalries in the squad, and for England it's got rid of that Man Utd v the world mentality that Ferguson insisted upon - all sitting at separate tables etc. There's now a great togetherness and spirit about England which Southgate is responsible for prioritising, fostering and building. It's certainly a lot more effective than all of his predecessors just chopping and changing and slinging whoever's had a few good Prem games in there. We went to South Africa not even knowing who the bloody goalkeeper would be, and look how that went.
But, at the same time, as all managers do when they're lucky enough to be in the job a long time (see Holloway towards the end of his first spell here) he is becoming a bit obstinate, stubborn, with logic-defying favourites, and tying himself in knots with his reasons and justifications. We're leaving Sterling out because his club form isn't good, but Phillips gets picked despite never playing for his club, Maguire is in despite playing like a complete cnt for 18 months, and Henderson is in despite being 33 and playing Conference North standard football in front of 600 people. He's basically picking Maguire now, even in friendly games where you think maybe take him out of the firing line and have a look at somebody out, it feels to me as a 'fck you I'm in charge' sort of attitude.
So we'll see how the tournament goes. I fear he might have gone on a tournament too long. He seemed to be minded to resign and then got talked out of it, which isn't great. But then, Bellingham fit, Kane fit, Maguire pulls his hamstring, Henderson turns his Grindr on and gets locked up, we've got a hell of a chance. Fascinating summer ahead, I'm genuinely excited about it.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Probably fair enough. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle as Southgate’s biggest strength is his ability to bring together a squad and they seem to enjoy putting on an England shirt which is a massive improvement from the Sven/Capello/Hodgson years. But tactically he’s probably been found wanting at the sharp end of tournaments.
It’s worth mentioning that it took Joachim Low eight years to finally win a tournament as Germany manager following a couple of near misses and we’re approaching a similar timeframe with Southgate as England manager. I suspect Southgate’s justification for sticking with certain players is that Euro 2024 will be the culmination of eight years managing England and he wants a settled team with plenty of tournament experience in the squad.
Personally I wouldn’t select the likes of Henderson, Maguire and perhaps one or two others but I can see what Southgate’s trying to achieve by aiming for stability. And it’s also worth noting that Southgate’s usually quick to involve and integrate young players into the squad such as Saka, Bellingham and more recently Rico Lewis.
Only time will tell if it’s the right approach but I do feel that Southgate gets a lot of unfair criticism for a manager who’s got more right than most England managers in our life time.
Finally, I find it ironic that some of his most vocal critics on this thread were the biggest proponents and supporters of another more hapless Gareth closer to home! |  | | |
| Euro 2024 on 11:25 - Dec 3 with 1958 views | SK_hoops |
| Euro 2024 on 23:53 - Dec 2 by Ned_Kennedys |
He is and will forever be miles behind the likes of Ramsey, Robson and Venables however you spin it.
Bang average manager who landed on his feet with a number of world class players at his disposal: the ‘demand’ for his services after he at last leaves his role will show how he is regarded in the football world. |
Plus loses against EVERY good team they play in a tournament. | | | |
| Euro 2024 on 11:26 - Dec 3 with 1953 views | traininvain |
| Euro 2024 on 10:56 - Dec 3 by Ned_Kennedys |
“But anyone would think we had decades of success before Southgate came along and underachieved by regularly getting us to the latter stages of tournaments with world class talents such as Ashley Young, Eric Dier, Jesse Lingard, Danny Rose and Mason Mount.”
You know that Southgate selected those players for his squads right? The same way he keeps picking players not playing any league football, players out of form and Jordan Henderson? |
So you think he left better options at home? Go on then give us some examples of players who should’ve gone to tournaments under Southgate but were unfairly excluded?
The point that seems to have gone over your head is that Southgate didn’t have any better options at his disposal so had to make use of players who wouldn’t get near the first team of other top national teams. [Post edited 3 Dec 2023 11:31]
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| Euro 2024 on 11:30 - Dec 3 with 1938 views | numptydumpty |
Southgate has the X Factor player in Bellingham a la Gascoigne and the goal scorer in Kane a la Lineker.
It made the difference for the previously much maligned Bobby Robson and could do for Southgate likewise.
Tournament football is never won in the group stages but with the top four third placed teams in each group qualifying as well as top two, qualifying for the knockout stages, is almost a given.
I think Southgate will bow out after this tournament - not sure who will replace him.
Think it's a toss up between Dick Beale or Big Sam !!!
My bad - tosser typo !!! |  |
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| Euro 2024 on 11:38 - Dec 3 with 1929 views | Watford_Ranger |
| Euro 2024 on 09:46 - Dec 3 by BazzaInTheLoft |
These are defining moments that all England managers go through, even our popular ones. Robson and Venables, now beatified, had horrendous results that had a major impact on tournaments.
Now they are plucky managers who had their tournaments stolen by the Germans. Truth is, they are far behind Southgate in terms of win % and final place finishes.
Didn’t Robson lose every game at Euro 88? |
We should have won Euro 96 but there’s going to be an element of luck for or against you in a tournament and we didn’t get it in the 96 semi. Muller scores at Wembley and maybe we lose to a mediocre Germany team at home and Southgate looks a mug. Fine margins.
1998 we were never getting close to that France team anyway. Sven and others then pissed away a talented generation. In 2018 he arguably overachieved but then we didn’t play any great sides including Croatia. Losing as favourites at home in the circumstances against Italy was a failure albeit that sounds harsh when reaching a final.
Has England ever won a knockout match as outsiders? | | | |
| Euro 2024 on 11:56 - Dec 3 with 1899 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Euro 2024 on 11:38 - Dec 3 by Watford_Ranger |
We should have won Euro 96 but there’s going to be an element of luck for or against you in a tournament and we didn’t get it in the 96 semi. Muller scores at Wembley and maybe we lose to a mediocre Germany team at home and Southgate looks a mug. Fine margins.
1998 we were never getting close to that France team anyway. Sven and others then pissed away a talented generation. In 2018 he arguably overachieved but then we didn’t play any great sides including Croatia. Losing as favourites at home in the circumstances against Italy was a failure albeit that sounds harsh when reaching a final.
Has England ever won a knockout match as outsiders? |
I agree with all of that, except that we were favourites v Italy, who broke the record for unbeaten games or something up until that final.
Luck plays a huge part for knockout games, but you need to win the other 95% of them to get there which is what GS has done.
He's not perfect, and some of his decisions confuse me, but he shuts me up because he usually wins anyway which really is the only thing that should count after 60 years without a trophy. For me anyway. | | | |
| Euro 2024 on 12:22 - Dec 3 with 1865 views | GaryBannister86 |
| Euro 2024 on 10:50 - Dec 3 by Ned_Kennedys |
Yeah you’re right: you’ve proved he’s a far better manager than Bobby Robson and Terry Venables 😂
He will not get a single decent managerial offer when he at last leaves the England job: maybe an offer from Major League Soccer as they think Phil Neville is worth a punt but more likely another role with the FA as they of course love him.
People like you will be saying ‘job well done’ if we get knocked out by Croatia or Portugal in the semi final: each to their own I guess. |
You're making up your own arguments and not reading what I say. Of course El Tel was a better all round manager than Southgate. We are talking about how well they do in the England job, nothing else. What job he gets or doesn't get afterwards is irrelevant.
If you think you've "proven" that Robson did a better job then Southgate then you are being hypocritical. Just by tournament results - Southgate wins or at least as good. But apparently that doesn't count because he is lucky to be blessed with great players (so was Robson), got lucky draws (so did Robson) and lost as soon as they faced a good side (so did Robson).
That is all I am saying. I would have El Tel any day over Southgate, obviously. | | | |
| Euro 2024 on 12:42 - Dec 3 with 1835 views | SydneyRs |
| Euro 2024 on 11:30 - Dec 3 by numptydumpty |
Southgate has the X Factor player in Bellingham a la Gascoigne and the goal scorer in Kane a la Lineker.
It made the difference for the previously much maligned Bobby Robson and could do for Southgate likewise.
Tournament football is never won in the group stages but with the top four third placed teams in each group qualifying as well as top two, qualifying for the knockout stages, is almost a given.
I think Southgate will bow out after this tournament - not sure who will replace him.
Think it's a toss up between Dick Beale or Big Sam !!!
My bad - tosser typo !!! |
Bellingham will be a better player than Gascoigne ever was. Completely different mentality level. Where was Gazza at Bellingham's age? Probably at the pub. | | | |
| Euro 2024 on 13:16 - Dec 3 with 1802 views | Ned_Kennedys |
| Euro 2024 on 11:18 - Dec 3 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I don’t need to say anything, you’ve made my point for me! 😆 |
I really haven’t.
You looking forward to watching Jordan Henderson in 6 months? | | | |
| Euro 2024 on 14:28 - Dec 3 with 1754 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Euro 2024 on 13:16 - Dec 3 by Ned_Kennedys |
I really haven’t.
You looking forward to watching Jordan Henderson in 6 months? |
If Jordan Henderson is your biggest worry then we’ll be fine : ) | | | |
| Euro 2024 on 14:35 - Dec 3 with 1748 views | kensalriser |
Southgate has managed England to 40% of their knockout stage wins.
But who needs facts when you've got opinions. |  |
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| Euro 2024 on 15:34 - Dec 3 with 1727 views | Ned_Kennedys |
| Euro 2024 on 14:35 - Dec 3 by kensalriser |
Southgate has managed England to 40% of their knockout stage wins.
But who needs facts when you've got opinions. |
Pity he sh1ts the bed in the knockout games: facts eh? | | | |
| Euro 2024 on 16:41 - Dec 3 with 1671 views | ManinBlack |
| Euro 2024 on 23:12 - Dec 2 by BostonR |
We have the wrong manager for that approach. Showed his defensive preference in the Euro final against an ageing Italian team. After going 1-0 up we should have shredded Italy but he was too cautious. |
Yes have to agree we were at home so to get cautious after an early lead is what you would expect Italy to do and not us. |  | | |
| Euro 2024 on 17:12 - Dec 3 with 1654 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Euro 2024 on 15:34 - Dec 3 by Ned_Kennedys |
Pity he sh1ts the bed in the knockout games: facts eh? |
It really isn’t. He’s won more knock games than any other England manager in history.
Sorry Norf I’m trying my best to be nuanced! | | | |
| Euro 2024 on 18:05 - Dec 3 with 1608 views | DavieQPR |
Best Manager England has had. Well against small teams anyway. |  | | |
| Euro 2024 on 21:54 - Dec 3 with 1510 views | kensalriser |
| Euro 2024 on 15:34 - Dec 3 by Ned_Kennedys |
Pity he sh1ts the bed in the knockout games: facts eh? |
Actually an excellent illustration of the point. | |
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| Euro 2024 on 22:19 - Dec 3 with 1482 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Euro 2024 on 12:42 - Dec 3 by SydneyRs |
Bellingham will be a better player than Gascoigne ever was. Completely different mentality level. Where was Gazza at Bellingham's age? Probably at the pub. |
He already is. You don't play for Real Madrid by chance. |  | | |
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