| A Level results 08:32 - Aug 13 with 9935 views | MrSheen |
Good luck to anyone else going through this today. Fortunately my youngest has got what she needs for exile to Chilly Jocko-Land (c. J. Greaves). |  | | |  |
| A Level results on 10:15 - Aug 14 with 1906 views | A40Bosh |
| A Level results on 07:58 - Aug 14 by stevec |
Would have been interesting if the Government had given A’s to everyone on account of the problems and see if it made a blind bit of difference.
Universities had already spelt out which kids they wanted and didn’t want and Companies are fairly smart with interviews to sort the wheat from the chaff.
This obsession with getting to Uni needs to be rebalanced. We have more lawyers and accountants than you can shake your proverbial stick at. If we had a cull on these careers would we miss them? NO.
What we do need, and far more valuable to society, are bricklayers, builders, nurses and carers and we’ve never got enough of those.
I’m hoping this pandemic, if it has any plus side, has a revaluation on what jobs are important and rebalances it’s education system accordingly. |
Sorry Steve, have to totally disagree with that.
The post WW2 years have lead to decades of rebuilding this country not only the bricks and mortar but also the social and economic mindset and potential of those who can access and make use of the health and education systems. Whilst it is still far from perfect and often f@@ked over by interfering politicians, improved access to better quality education has lead to an increase in new "aspirational" classes. Families wanting to give their own children the opportunity and encouragement to do better than they had been able to do. Not everyone is suited to being a brickie or a builder so why would want to stop a shy, introverted 18yr old student who excels at Maths and just wants to gaze at financial computations all day from earning a good living from accountancy or actuary - Paddy Power pays actuaries great money in their back office set up.
Unfortunately you can't just give everyone an A* either that's nonsense too, it would throw the Uni system in to chaos. Gavin Williamson is also a complete tool saying if you gave everyone their predicted grades you would end up with people getting in to jobs they are not qualified to do. Did he really say that?? And this is the Education Secretary!
You could give predicted grades because most Yr 13 students would have applied to those universities at the end of last year/Jan 2020 where they had a realistic chance of getting in to. On 20th May they would have received university offers based on their predicted grades. So let them go and study what they were aiming for because at the end of the day simply getting a degree in itself is now not the achievement it once was. The fact that more and more students go to university just means the emphasis switches from the fact that you got a degree to where you got a degree and your grade.
My two older girls both got uni places in their respective A level years. My eldest is naturally more academically able across all subjects and very hard working and she got her choice of the top non Oxbridge unis, whilst my middle daughter who is bright enough but does not have the same level of application is now studying at perhaps a university she would not have picked at the outset but seemed a safe choice when she had to go through clearing to get a place when she didn't get her predicted grades because she went off the boil before Easter before her final exams. She will probably come away with a 2:2 or if she bucks her ideas up next year maybe a 2:1 but from a not particularly highly regarded uni and that is not going to make it easy for her to walk in to her preferred profession. So ironically she is now making rumblings about maybe switching to a nursing degree after (God help us - another 3 years of her not submitting work in on time!)
This year is the highest uni intake for Nursing degrees ever but the way - you need a degree now to become a nurse too! |  |
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| A Level results on 10:21 - Aug 14 with 1897 views | nadera78 |
| A Level results on 09:48 - Aug 14 by stevec |
A cull was not suggesting getting rid of all lawyers (or accountants) they’re commendable subjects and as Watford Ranger says, lead to various other good jobs. But I still say we have far too many particularly when we have such a huge shortage of jobs in other areas that should be valued far higher than they actually are.
It’s up to the education system to reflect that and it’s not happening on the scale required. |
Are you saying we have too many lawyers or too many law students?
If its the former then, no, we don't. If we did then the shear numbers would drive down wages, meaning they'd all struggle to make a living and so use their highly regarded skills to find better paid jobs in other professions.
If it's the latter then, again, no, we don't. The majority of law students don't go onto practise, they instead take the skills they've learnt - again, highly regarded - and go into other professions.
There is an argument to be made about people going to university who would be better off training elsewhere, but it really doesn't concern those who study law.
But this is all irrelevant to the point of this thread: the government and regulator have knowingly and deliberately screwed over a group of kids from poorer backgrounds. |  | | |
| A Level results on 10:50 - Aug 14 with 1867 views | A40Bosh |
| A Level results on 10:21 - Aug 14 by nadera78 |
Are you saying we have too many lawyers or too many law students?
If its the former then, no, we don't. If we did then the shear numbers would drive down wages, meaning they'd all struggle to make a living and so use their highly regarded skills to find better paid jobs in other professions.
If it's the latter then, again, no, we don't. The majority of law students don't go onto practise, they instead take the skills they've learnt - again, highly regarded - and go into other professions.
There is an argument to be made about people going to university who would be better off training elsewhere, but it really doesn't concern those who study law.
But this is all irrelevant to the point of this thread: the government and regulator have knowingly and deliberately screwed over a group of kids from poorer backgrounds. |
So let's look at the other side of the story for 2 mins, because whilst I think that WIlliamson is a tool for his inappropriate and incorrect comments, there is at least some explanation about how Ofqual have assessed results and socioeconomic considerations
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
Whilst there will be, and perhaps a significant number, of students who have not been given the grades they "deserved" I think it goes too far to say that this is a deliberate act by the Bullingdon Club boys to keep the oiks down. It's just not that big a conspiracy.
But the fact of the matter is that at a human level it is still wrong to judge a cohort based heavily on the prior attainment of the school for the past 3 years. They did that and yes, it has proven that results are largely the same as they would have been had they sat the exams based on trends, but still significant numbers of hard working children attending schools with lower prior attainment levels and GCSE and A Level will have been penalised and my heart goes out to them.
I know for a fact that had my eldest daughter been part of this cohort this year then yesterday morning there would have been complete and total devastation in our household. She was predicted for her A Levels grades ABB, and because of her unbelievable work ethic and despite having to self teach a lot of it to herself due to her illness preventing her from getting to school for most her A Level years she actually achieved A*AB.
I guarantee you that had she got her results yesterday, because of the moderation with this algorithm being applied based on the previous performance of the school, she would have been given BCC and that might have set her mental health back another 5 years from where it is now.
They got it wrong because it is unfair on individuals to go with statistics.
Edit: Also let's not also be naive to the fact that Headteachers warned their subject leaders to err on the side of generosity (I know this as fact not speculation) because they suspected that any grading based on CAG would make Ofqual suspicious of improved results this year and would downgrade anyway, so they needed to inflate to compensate for this but not too much that it became obvious. Hence why they do not want mock exam results to be the fallback assessment [Post edited 14 Aug 2020 10:59]
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| A Level results on 11:30 - Aug 14 with 1835 views | robith |
I'm actually heartbroken by this. I don't know what the exact solution was, but state engineered punishment of working class kids trying to better themselves doesn't seem like the best solution.
My life was irrevocably changed by getting good A level grades and getting into a prestigious university. And out there today, kids like me have had that taken away from them.
This government is a potent blend of callous and inept |  | | |
| A Level results on 11:39 - Aug 14 with 1819 views | nadera78 |
| A Level results on 10:50 - Aug 14 by A40Bosh |
So let's look at the other side of the story for 2 mins, because whilst I think that WIlliamson is a tool for his inappropriate and incorrect comments, there is at least some explanation about how Ofqual have assessed results and socioeconomic considerations
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
Whilst there will be, and perhaps a significant number, of students who have not been given the grades they "deserved" I think it goes too far to say that this is a deliberate act by the Bullingdon Club boys to keep the oiks down. It's just not that big a conspiracy.
But the fact of the matter is that at a human level it is still wrong to judge a cohort based heavily on the prior attainment of the school for the past 3 years. They did that and yes, it has proven that results are largely the same as they would have been had they sat the exams based on trends, but still significant numbers of hard working children attending schools with lower prior attainment levels and GCSE and A Level will have been penalised and my heart goes out to them.
I know for a fact that had my eldest daughter been part of this cohort this year then yesterday morning there would have been complete and total devastation in our household. She was predicted for her A Levels grades ABB, and because of her unbelievable work ethic and despite having to self teach a lot of it to herself due to her illness preventing her from getting to school for most her A Level years she actually achieved A*AB.
I guarantee you that had she got her results yesterday, because of the moderation with this algorithm being applied based on the previous performance of the school, she would have been given BCC and that might have set her mental health back another 5 years from where it is now.
They got it wrong because it is unfair on individuals to go with statistics.
Edit: Also let's not also be naive to the fact that Headteachers warned their subject leaders to err on the side of generosity (I know this as fact not speculation) because they suspected that any grading based on CAG would make Ofqual suspicious of improved results this year and would downgrade anyway, so they needed to inflate to compensate for this but not too much that it became obvious. Hence why they do not want mock exam results to be the fallback assessment [Post edited 14 Aug 2020 10:59]
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I mean it is a deliberate act, it has to be. They knew that using this algorithm would mean kids at private schools would see their grades improve and kids at state schools see theirs go down. And they still chose to use it, so it was deliberate.
I didn't use the word conspiracy or anything like it. But it was a deliberate choice. | | | |
| A Level results on 11:43 - Aug 14 with 1815 views | nadera78 |
| A Level results on 10:15 - Aug 14 by Northernr |
System has taken into account average, historical school performance, which means if you've worked your fcking butt off to get good grades despite being sent to an absolute shthole you'll be judged particularly harshly. There but for the grace of God... |
Using this algorithm meant there were schools where it was impossible for a student to get an A* grade, regardless of the quality of their work. It's staggering. | | | |
| A Level results on 11:46 - Aug 14 with 1811 views | Northernr |
| A Level results on 11:43 - Aug 14 by nadera78 |
Using this algorithm meant there were schools where it was impossible for a student to get an A* grade, regardless of the quality of their work. It's staggering. |
Also just seen a breakdown that says if the algorithm says the class would average 1 A*, 19As, 5Bs and a U, then somebody is getting the U regardless. If they all would have got 95% and one of them would have got 94% then the 94% gets the U. |  | | |
| A Level results on 11:58 - Aug 14 with 1793 views | E17hoop |
There's an interesting challenge under GDPR Article 22 for this.
The data subject shall have the right not to be subject to a decision based solely on automated processing, including profiling, which produces legal effects concerning him or her or similarly significantly affects him or her.
The only exclusion to this would be if the students had signed a consent agreeing to the algorithmic grade. It'd be worth a test case to test its reliability. I believe there's be a strong case to reject the algorithm, especially if the cost is on the student for the appeal. |  |
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| A Level results on 12:07 - Aug 14 with 1776 views | LazyFan |
I don't really know what the surprise is. Pyramid scheme narrows attainment. No big surprise there. The pyramid scheme is unfair? Yep they all are.
It also shows why Exams are useless. Some strange event knocks out your window and now you have to rely upon fieldwork (coursework) that you dumbed down because the exams would sort out those whose parents gamed thye coursework for them.
Like as if parents know what to do these days. Then they said but "they will all copy it from the internet", like the internet is always correct or there aren't programs that watch out for this or isn't that what most people do at work these days.
They then said "but if you a plumber with dirty hands you cannot use your phone to do some math work", like there are not voice activated phones or even robust workman like phones like the Unihertz phones built just for this.
It all a bunch of excuses after excuses for keeping a hard-on for exams when it's well known with lots of science behind it that the only thing exams are good for is testing on that one day. Not every other day after that, just and only just that one day. Many people pass exams with great grades because they worked hard and deserve it, but plenty passed because they are good at exams on that one day and later we find out under pressure they are useless. They make those who worked hard feel foolish which is wrong.
If we had just coursework based on practical in the fieldwork and on multiple pieces of work, then this is like real work and the real world. Then we could have given them a grade on what they have done so far and those who left it all to the last min revision to game it would have been found out and those who put in the hard graft would have got the rewards they deserve.
I don't want a doctor who passed a lot of exams at grade A with a god-complex, I want a doctor who has been in the field and learned from practical application.
I don't want a pilot who got grade A on the flight simulator, I want a pilot who learned from a senior one over time and has many flight hours.
I don't want students who got grade A from revising the night before with a great memory or just got lucky that once, I want students who studied all year round and applied it in fieldwork iteratively and incrementally so they know the practicality behind which theories work and which are just hype (austerity as an economic-political example of hype).
Unsurprisingly at university, the top effort a final year student does is their dissertation, which is not examed based so, academia knows this too. And that is also rightly done at other levels such as HND and NVQ. This is proper academia not poxy exams and would have avoided this mess entirely because it can return once again this mess.
People should have less of a hard-on for outputs like exams and more for outcomes like real learning! |  |
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| A Level results on 12:22 - Aug 14 with 1743 views | flynnbo |
| A Level results on 12:07 - Aug 14 by LazyFan |
I don't really know what the surprise is. Pyramid scheme narrows attainment. No big surprise there. The pyramid scheme is unfair? Yep they all are.
It also shows why Exams are useless. Some strange event knocks out your window and now you have to rely upon fieldwork (coursework) that you dumbed down because the exams would sort out those whose parents gamed thye coursework for them.
Like as if parents know what to do these days. Then they said but "they will all copy it from the internet", like the internet is always correct or there aren't programs that watch out for this or isn't that what most people do at work these days.
They then said "but if you a plumber with dirty hands you cannot use your phone to do some math work", like there are not voice activated phones or even robust workman like phones like the Unihertz phones built just for this.
It all a bunch of excuses after excuses for keeping a hard-on for exams when it's well known with lots of science behind it that the only thing exams are good for is testing on that one day. Not every other day after that, just and only just that one day. Many people pass exams with great grades because they worked hard and deserve it, but plenty passed because they are good at exams on that one day and later we find out under pressure they are useless. They make those who worked hard feel foolish which is wrong.
If we had just coursework based on practical in the fieldwork and on multiple pieces of work, then this is like real work and the real world. Then we could have given them a grade on what they have done so far and those who left it all to the last min revision to game it would have been found out and those who put in the hard graft would have got the rewards they deserve.
I don't want a doctor who passed a lot of exams at grade A with a god-complex, I want a doctor who has been in the field and learned from practical application.
I don't want a pilot who got grade A on the flight simulator, I want a pilot who learned from a senior one over time and has many flight hours.
I don't want students who got grade A from revising the night before with a great memory or just got lucky that once, I want students who studied all year round and applied it in fieldwork iteratively and incrementally so they know the practicality behind which theories work and which are just hype (austerity as an economic-political example of hype).
Unsurprisingly at university, the top effort a final year student does is their dissertation, which is not examed based so, academia knows this too. And that is also rightly done at other levels such as HND and NVQ. This is proper academia not poxy exams and would have avoided this mess entirely because it can return once again this mess.
People should have less of a hard-on for outputs like exams and more for outcomes like real learning! |
Well, the government decided to get rid of Controlled Assessments in the GCSEs (as a head of a major faculty for over 25 years, I have to admit I was never a fan, tbh) which resulted in terminal exams where some students end up sitting around 15 papers. When they reformed the A levels (at the same time in my subject), many schools dropped AS exams which allowed for more accurate predictions so many had to predict grades based on GCSEs. [Post edited 14 Aug 2020 12:24]
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| A Level results on 12:30 - Aug 14 with 1731 views | NorthLondonR |
Just to add it's been absolutely heartbreaking speaking to students via clearing who in some cases have downgraded from am A to a D!
Have become more of a counsellor rather than admissions officer and then there's the parents!! Rightfully angry and it's hard to disagree with them. |  | | |
| A Level results on 12:36 - Aug 14 with 1713 views | A40Bosh |
| A Level results on 11:46 - Aug 14 by Northernr |
Also just seen a breakdown that says if the algorithm says the class would average 1 A*, 19As, 5Bs and a U, then somebody is getting the U regardless. If they all would have got 95% and one of them would have got 94% then the 94% gets the U. |
Spot on Clive
Hence why during the CAG process if you had 20 kids in your class doing A Level Maths not only do you have to give a predicted grade you had to rank all 20 from 1-20. All because someone has to get the U | |
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| A Level results on 12:44 - Aug 14 with 1696 views | Mick_S |
| A Level results on 11:46 - Aug 14 by Northernr |
Also just seen a breakdown that says if the algorithm says the class would average 1 A*, 19As, 5Bs and a U, then somebody is getting the U regardless. If they all would have got 95% and one of them would have got 94% then the 94% gets the U. |
That is just feckin' incredible. |  |
| Did I ever mention that I was in Minder? |
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| A Level results on 12:55 - Aug 14 with 1665 views | Northernr |
There was another really good thread that said no system was ever going to be perfect and this one is designed to punish the outliers. So if you're an A* student in a sht school you're going to be harshly dealt with. They could have got around that with a pre-appeal system, so schools could have appealed the obviously incorrect outlier results in advance.
This one, worth a read
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| A Level results on 13:03 - Aug 14 with 1640 views | isawqpratwcity |
| A Level results on 12:55 - Aug 14 by Northernr |
There was another really good thread that said no system was ever going to be perfect and this one is designed to punish the outliers. So if you're an A* student in a sht school you're going to be harshly dealt with. They could have got around that with a pre-appeal system, so schools could have appealed the obviously incorrect outlier results in advance.
This one, worth a read
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Christ, Norf, does this mean you had sex much, much earlier than any of us thought possible? |  |
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| A Level results on 13:20 - Aug 14 with 1613 views | wortonranger |
As retired teacher ...
The government communication on this is very poor and suggests either poor understanding of the process involved or carelessness.
It’s important to understand that..
If there are more than 15 pupils doing a subject in a school or college the grades predicted by the staff are NOT used, only the ranking given with grades being allocated to match the previous year. This can handicap popular subjects and large institutions, especially colleges.
Most private schools benefit from smaller numbers so staff predictions will come in to play for them. They are also guaranteed to do well anyway as they always do! ( due to a whole range of reasons)
To be honest, this years situation is really what always happens. Our system and society favours those who already have the advantages. |  | | |
| A Level results on 16:04 - Aug 14 with 1509 views | Cliff |
| A Level results on 04:29 - Aug 14 by timcocking |
The British curriculum is (unsurprisingly) absolutely shocking. So, so poor. You could teach kids so much more, so much quicker. Why in the name of Christ British kids still spend their time and energy learning utterly useless crap like trigonometry or long division when they should be learning Russian and Chinese or whatever. It's as if the people running the country still think it's 1970 and there's no such thing as globalisation or phones and computers. They are teaching my daughter what they taught us; sod all. My daughter is in the middle of her GCSEs and she's learnt sweet fa in the last 10 years. Complete waste of time. Long division...Christalbloodymighty. Dutch kids are fluent in every main language at a young age. Would you prefer to know how to speak Chinese and Russian, or calculate the surface area of a bloody triangle? I'd bet the German curriculum no longer teaches long division. |
Utterly ridiculous post. Just because you couldn't hack maths |  | | |
| A Level results on 16:07 - Aug 14 with 1508 views | Cliff |
| A Level results on 05:24 - Aug 14 by nadera78 |
Some severe misunderstanding of what happened on this thread. It was not teachers sticking a finger in the air and saying "I'll give this one a B". I've copied this next bit from another site I use:
"Teachers had to base the grades on three levels of evidence.
1. High level - undertaken in exam conditions with invigilators the whole exam format everything. Obviously any of these type that actually contributed to final grades were MEANT to give added weight.
Eg as exams
2. Next came in class tests/assessments under exam conditions but where obviously kids will push boundaries but theoretically in ‘closed conditions’ lower down this scale was open book type tests. All these are routinely moderated and standardised in faculty meetings every six weeks anyway using raw and uniform mark scores from the exam boards
3. Homework’s and general class work was the lowest level of evidence.
Once this was done heads of department would liaise with individual staff and grill them on their CAGS. Each grade HAD to be justified by the. BEST evidence. Next those HODS would be questionEd by their line managers at slt level looking at trends over the last three years (or longer) or shorter if it was a newer spec exam. This involved looking at patterns or anomalies between groups of learners including male/female ALN FSM with particular notice given to ALN kids for whom extra time in exams would be allocated or if they had readers etc. We also looked at residual differences between subjects. Then I had to justify my departments with the Deputy Head in charge of standards before we both signed them off to the Head.
Additionally all pupils ALPS A Level target grade based on performance at gcse was also taken into consideration.
All the data for each staff member and faculty/department with spreadsheets and commentary on each pupil was collated on the central school drive for easy access to reference if needed prior to submission of the CAGS to exam boards."
And then, after all that, the grades were put through an algorithm that both the government and the regulator knew was biased in favour of private schools. They knew it. That's why kids attending private schools have seen a big jump in grades and kids in state schools a drop.
The government had a choice - perhaps see a slight grade inflation across the board, or use an algorithm they knew discriminated against poor people. Guess which they chose? |
The was obviously some form of normalization required. Can you tell me what was wrong with the one they used and what you would have preferred? | | | |
| A Level results on 16:19 - Aug 14 with 1484 views | Cliff |
| A Level results on 11:43 - Aug 14 by nadera78 |
Using this algorithm meant there were schools where it was impossible for a student to get an A* grade, regardless of the quality of their work. It's staggering. |
have you evidence of this? Because I thought the adjustment made was to bring the number of passes AT EACH LEVEL into line with previous years. | | | |
| A Level results on 16:32 - Aug 14 with 1463 views | A40Bosh |
| A Level results on 16:19 - Aug 14 by Cliff |
have you evidence of this? Because I thought the adjustment made was to bring the number of passes AT EACH LEVEL into line with previous years. |
My wife who is a 6th form pastoral manager who was dealing with the fallout for her students yesterday and works very closely with the teaching staff and the pupils has seen 1st hand straight A* students who would be guaranteed A* across the board downgraded to ABB. The moderation will effect this type of pupil but not all. If the same pupil was registered at a private school purely to sit his exams he would have got 3 x A*s no argument. He has now lost his place at Kings as they will not budge. | |
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| A Level results on 16:37 - Aug 14 with 1448 views | Cliff |
| A Level results on 16:32 - Aug 14 by A40Bosh |
My wife who is a 6th form pastoral manager who was dealing with the fallout for her students yesterday and works very closely with the teaching staff and the pupils has seen 1st hand straight A* students who would be guaranteed A* across the board downgraded to ABB. The moderation will effect this type of pupil but not all. If the same pupil was registered at a private school purely to sit his exams he would have got 3 x A*s no argument. He has now lost his place at Kings as they will not budge. |
I am sorry to hear that, but that is not proof of what I was after. We still don't know that nobody at that school was awarded an A* | | | |
| A Level results on 16:55 - Aug 14 with 1426 views | DannyPaddox |
When I was 16 I took 6 o-levels. My grades were A B C D E and U (unclassified) As you had to have 4 C’s and above to progress, the school wouldn’t let me immediately take A-levels in the next year. I had a meeting with the head of the 6th form. I said look at my grades - it’s a royal flush - that’s has to count for something. He wasn’t having it. I had to do a year of retakes. |  | | |
| A Level results on 18:20 - Aug 14 with 1375 views | CiderwithRsie |
My daughter has just been on the receiving end of this and had her grades reduced for the crime of deciding to go to 6th Form in the local comp rather than staying in grammar school which she wasn't enjoying.
Fortunately she has outflanked the bastards by taking the entrance exam for the uni of her choice back in January (her idea, not mine, and I'm both proud and relieved she had the nous to find out about it) which she aced and as a result got an unconditional offer plus a "merit award' of £1k. | | | |
| A Level results on 18:30 - Aug 14 with 1369 views | CiderwithRsie |
On the system used, tbf to the govt if you spend two years teaching on the basis that you'll assess on the basis of an exam, then cancel the exams but still need to do the assessment, there's no good solution. If they use the teacher assessments of course the teachers know they are judged on the results.
But at least teacher assessments are made by professionals with a good knowledge of the pupils and their work, not an algorithm using no evidence about the pupil at all but based on historical performance at the institution, using different cohorts. It's going to be imperfect but that's the worse sort of imperfect, baking in privilege and deprivation from the past.
And Williamson announcing stuff literally 24 hours beforehand is utter incompetence, even if he had the right idea (which he didn't, he was just panicking) | | | |
| A Level results on 18:39 - Aug 14 with 1891 views | CiderwithRsie |
| A Level results on 11:46 - Aug 14 by Northernr |
Also just seen a breakdown that says if the algorithm says the class would average 1 A*, 19As, 5Bs and a U, then somebody is getting the U regardless. If they all would have got 95% and one of them would have got 94% then the 94% gets the U. |
A headteacher was on the radio yesterday making this exact point. The algorithm insisted someone in her school had to get an E. No-one had this year, they had a good cohort, but their lowest B was downgraded to E.
I don't care what people say about teachers inflating grades, chopping a kid down from B to E is not credible. Yet this is being promoted as being more academically rigorous than teacher assessment. It isn't. | | | |
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