| Another Brexit thread 08:27 - Aug 5 with 15401 views | waynekerr55 |
Genuine questions which I feel deserve a thread of their own
What made you vote leave or remain?
Based on the facts now, would you change your decision?
I voted remain as I wasn't convinced by either sides argument so I stuck with the status quo.
I'd stick to my decision, simply because there is no tangible evidence that leaving sorts us out in the short to medium term. |  |
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| Another Brexit thread on 20:20 - Aug 7 with 1062 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:17 - Aug 7 by AlfieMooresSon |
Cheap labour from Europe has driven wages even lower and allowed companies to use zero hour contracts etc! |
Cheap Labour is a UK government policy not a EU policy.
That’s why they’ve already announced that EU workers can still come in for up to three months, as they can now. It’s also why non EU migration is becoming higher than EU migration to make up the shortfall in the total immigration numbers this country has decided it wants. |  | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:20 - Aug 7 with 1062 views | waynekerr55 |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:17 - Aug 7 by AlfieMooresSon |
Cheap labour from Europe has driven wages even lower and allowed companies to use zero hour contracts etc! |
That's not EU law, that's employers using the worst aspects of capitalism to drive down wages! | |
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| Another Brexit thread on 20:26 - Aug 7 with 1044 views | AlfieMooresSon |
| Another Brexit thread on 13:32 - Aug 7 by londonlisa2001 |
And there it actually is.
At last a post with honesty. Good for you Alfie. Seriously.
Brexit is desired because it’s getting one over on liberals!
Full stop. It’s the only reason many wanted it. And they don’t care about the awful ramifications because deep down they believe that it’s only the liberals that will suffer.
The greatest con trick of all time. Making people believe that somehow the muticulturalism, globalisation, gender issues, same sex equality, climate change concerns that they are so terrified of, is somehow the fault of the EU and will all just go away with Brexit.
It’s laughable. It really is. |
There are many reasons the majority of the country voted to leave, getting one over the remoaning lefties/liberals has become a bonus due to their constant moaning and attempts to stop Brexit ever since  | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:44 - Aug 7 with 1035 views | jules |
| Another Brexit thread on 09:25 - Aug 7 by waynekerr55 |
What elements can we not control at present? Genuine question and not meant to come across as sarcastic. |
As far as I understand it, and I am always happy to be corrected if I am wrong, EU legislation can only be proposed and implemented by the EU Commission. These 28 Commissioners (one for each country) are nominated by the leaders of each county (though the EU President can veto any nomination they don’t like). They don’t stand for election on any manifesto but they have huge influence on bringing in new legislation.
Out of interest, the UK Commissioner is Sir Julian Beresford King (ever heard of him?) and is responsible for Security. And, as a random example, the EU Commissioner for Food Health and Safety, quite an important one impacting the daily lives of EU citizens and businesses, is Vytenis Andriukaitis (ever heard of him?). The point is that these are all unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats… and that’s where we (ordinary citizens) don’t have any control. We don’t vote them in and we can’t vote them out.
Of course any legislation proposed by the EU Commission still has to be passed by the EU Parliament (and EU Council of Ministers). Yes, we vote for MEPs but this is all just smoke and mirrors to make it look like there is proper accountability. MEPs can’t propose legislation. In theory they can make amendments but essentially they just vote yes or no on what comes out of the Commission. The EU Parliament is just a glorified rubber stamping body which has no real power.
Now, tell me that’s democratic. | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:55 - Aug 7 with 1021 views | waynekerr55 |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:44 - Aug 7 by jules |
As far as I understand it, and I am always happy to be corrected if I am wrong, EU legislation can only be proposed and implemented by the EU Commission. These 28 Commissioners (one for each country) are nominated by the leaders of each county (though the EU President can veto any nomination they don’t like). They don’t stand for election on any manifesto but they have huge influence on bringing in new legislation.
Out of interest, the UK Commissioner is Sir Julian Beresford King (ever heard of him?) and is responsible for Security. And, as a random example, the EU Commissioner for Food Health and Safety, quite an important one impacting the daily lives of EU citizens and businesses, is Vytenis Andriukaitis (ever heard of him?). The point is that these are all unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats… and that’s where we (ordinary citizens) don’t have any control. We don’t vote them in and we can’t vote them out.
Of course any legislation proposed by the EU Commission still has to be passed by the EU Parliament (and EU Council of Ministers). Yes, we vote for MEPs but this is all just smoke and mirrors to make it look like there is proper accountability. MEPs can’t propose legislation. In theory they can make amendments but essentially they just vote yes or no on what comes out of the Commission. The EU Parliament is just a glorified rubber stamping body which has no real power.
Now, tell me that’s democratic. |
It's as democratic as the unelected lords impact on our legislation - what's the difference?
You also forget that we have a veto on changes that impact us. | |
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| Another Brexit thread on 20:59 - Aug 7 with 1016 views | LeonWasGod |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:44 - Aug 7 by jules |
As far as I understand it, and I am always happy to be corrected if I am wrong, EU legislation can only be proposed and implemented by the EU Commission. These 28 Commissioners (one for each country) are nominated by the leaders of each county (though the EU President can veto any nomination they don’t like). They don’t stand for election on any manifesto but they have huge influence on bringing in new legislation.
Out of interest, the UK Commissioner is Sir Julian Beresford King (ever heard of him?) and is responsible for Security. And, as a random example, the EU Commissioner for Food Health and Safety, quite an important one impacting the daily lives of EU citizens and businesses, is Vytenis Andriukaitis (ever heard of him?). The point is that these are all unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats… and that’s where we (ordinary citizens) don’t have any control. We don’t vote them in and we can’t vote them out.
Of course any legislation proposed by the EU Commission still has to be passed by the EU Parliament (and EU Council of Ministers). Yes, we vote for MEPs but this is all just smoke and mirrors to make it look like there is proper accountability. MEPs can’t propose legislation. In theory they can make amendments but essentially they just vote yes or no on what comes out of the Commission. The EU Parliament is just a glorified rubber stamping body which has no real power.
Now, tell me that’s democratic. |
It’s very little different to our system. Have you voted for the Lords? Did you vote for Boris? Did you vote for Boris to implement something contrary to the last Tory manifesto? Did you vote for Boris’ puppet Dom Cummings, for May’s puppet Olly Robins, both of whom dictated policy? Etc., etc.
Representative democracy is what it says on the tin. We vote people in to make decisions on our behalf. And they are accountable- to the people who appoint them.
Fair play to the Euro skeptic press over the years though (not least Johnson himself), they’ve done a great job of pushing people’s buttons, often using outright lies, to make them passionate about stuff that doesn’t directly affect them and they probably don’t understand either. |  | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 21:25 - Aug 7 with 996 views | jules |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:59 - Aug 7 by LeonWasGod |
It’s very little different to our system. Have you voted for the Lords? Did you vote for Boris? Did you vote for Boris to implement something contrary to the last Tory manifesto? Did you vote for Boris’ puppet Dom Cummings, for May’s puppet Olly Robins, both of whom dictated policy? Etc., etc.
Representative democracy is what it says on the tin. We vote people in to make decisions on our behalf. And they are accountable- to the people who appoint them.
Fair play to the Euro skeptic press over the years though (not least Johnson himself), they’ve done a great job of pushing people’s buttons, often using outright lies, to make them passionate about stuff that doesn’t directly affect them and they probably don’t understand either. |
You are right to some extent in that the House of Lords is unelected (not saying our system is perfect) but the House of Lords doesn't propose legislation, it is a reviewing body. The Commissioners propose legislation and are probably more akin to Secretaries of State. Yes, we also don't directly vote for, e.g. the Home Secretary or Foreign Secretary, but they are (usually) elected Members of Parliament and also members of a political party which has stood on a manifesto and which can be voted out. That doesn't apply to EU Commissioners.
I'm not saying that everything that comes out of the EU is bad, but it certainly isn't a representative democracy. My view is that it is an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy that we can easily manage without.
No-one is pushing my buttons, I am just thinking for myself, and anyway, they all lie. I didn't vote for Boris, but nor did I vote for Gordon Brown when he became Prime Minister, nor Alastair Campbell or Jonathan Powell, it works both ways.
For me it's simple, the less state the better. | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 21:28 - Aug 7 with 992 views | Highjack |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:55 - Aug 7 by waynekerr55 |
It's as democratic as the unelected lords impact on our legislation - what's the difference?
You also forget that we have a veto on changes that impact us. |
The difference is the elected body in our system are the ones who propose, initiate and legislate our laws.
Given the choice I would vote to abolish the lords or at least severely reform it.
Same with the commons really.
But just because our system is undemocratic and crap doesn’t mean we should accept the EU being undemocratic and crap. |  |
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| Another Brexit thread on 21:40 - Aug 7 with 974 views | jules |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:55 - Aug 7 by waynekerr55 |
It's as democratic as the unelected lords impact on our legislation - what's the difference?
You also forget that we have a veto on changes that impact us. |
Good point about the veto. But, if you have a get out clause that is used regularly (and I don't know how it is applied and how often it is used) then what's the point of being part of the club at all... you might as well leave! | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 21:45 - Aug 7 with 960 views | Professor |
| Another Brexit thread on 19:25 - Aug 7 by Jango |
*Crappy jobs* with crap pay meaning they’ll never be able to afford to live near the snobs looking down on them in that way. No surprise 2 of London’s finest on here are the first to agree with you. |
Not necessarily poorly paid, but unpleasant and hard graft. | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 21:59 - Aug 7 with 949 views | LeonWasGod |
| Another Brexit thread on 21:25 - Aug 7 by jules |
You are right to some extent in that the House of Lords is unelected (not saying our system is perfect) but the House of Lords doesn't propose legislation, it is a reviewing body. The Commissioners propose legislation and are probably more akin to Secretaries of State. Yes, we also don't directly vote for, e.g. the Home Secretary or Foreign Secretary, but they are (usually) elected Members of Parliament and also members of a political party which has stood on a manifesto and which can be voted out. That doesn't apply to EU Commissioners.
I'm not saying that everything that comes out of the EU is bad, but it certainly isn't a representative democracy. My view is that it is an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy that we can easily manage without.
No-one is pushing my buttons, I am just thinking for myself, and anyway, they all lie. I didn't vote for Boris, but nor did I vote for Gordon Brown when he became Prime Minister, nor Alastair Campbell or Jonathan Powell, it works both ways.
For me it's simple, the less state the better. |
Sounds like we’ll never meet in the middle as I think the state has an important role to play in tempering the selfish excesses of free market economies, which never put people first. That sounds hippyish; I’m only talking about a balance, not complete state control (although many of our EU neighbours do very well out of more state ownership of services).
Leaving the EU is throwing the baby out with the bath water imo. We benefit in so many ways, yet people’s focus has been shifted on to something that is largely irrelevant. Is it such a bad thing that our Commissioner is a civil servant with 35 years of international diplomatic experience? I’d have thought that’s exactly the type of person we’d want representing us in a diplomatic role. What has he done that’s been against Britain’s interests? We never hear any specifics. People have been persuaded to rally against the principle, not the reality - I bet most people complaining about how undemocratic the EU structure is don’t know who our Commissioner is or what the job entails (without googling!).
Still, we are where we are and all that. Take back control (but hand it to...?). | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 22:14 - Aug 7 with 936 views | waynekerr55 |
| Another Brexit thread on 21:40 - Aug 7 by jules |
Good point about the veto. But, if you have a get out clause that is used regularly (and I don't know how it is applied and how often it is used) then what's the point of being part of the club at all... you might as well leave! |
As you have the benefits of the current trade agreements. Not to mention subsidies for less well off areas | |
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| Another Brexit thread on 22:14 - Aug 7 with 935 views | bluey_the_blue |
I bet most people saying about how democratic the EU structure is don’t know who our Commissioner is or what the job entails (without googling!).
The relative anonymity is a problem in itself regardless of perspective. | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 22:16 - Aug 7 with 934 views | waynekerr55 |
| Another Brexit thread on 22:14 - Aug 7 by bluey_the_blue |
I bet most people saying about how democratic the EU structure is don’t know who our Commissioner is or what the job entails (without googling!).
The relative anonymity is a problem in itself regardless of perspective. |
Is that really worth potentially crashing the economy because of that? | |
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| Another Brexit thread on 22:22 - Aug 7 with 930 views | bluey_the_blue |
| Another Brexit thread on 22:16 - Aug 7 by waynekerr55 |
Is that really worth potentially crashing the economy because of that? |
It depends if you believe short term or long term.
Either way, do you or anybody wanting to remain in EU have any confidence EU is capable of much needed reform? I certainly don't.
The problem then is what to do knowing reform won't happen. Jump ship or wait for the inevitable? The problem, as I keep saying, was caused by Major. People had no say over Maastricht; I've zero problem with a trading block, I'm against everything else and I don't see EU reforming that ever... | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 22:23 - Aug 7 with 930 views | longlostjack |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:17 - Aug 7 by AlfieMooresSon |
Cheap labour from Europe has driven wages even lower and allowed companies to use zero hour contracts etc! |
Bollocks. But I reckon you know that Alfie you little tease you. |  |
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| Another Brexit thread on 22:55 - Aug 7 with 903 views | LeonWasGod |
| Another Brexit thread on 22:22 - Aug 7 by bluey_the_blue |
It depends if you believe short term or long term.
Either way, do you or anybody wanting to remain in EU have any confidence EU is capable of much needed reform? I certainly don't.
The problem then is what to do knowing reform won't happen. Jump ship or wait for the inevitable? The problem, as I keep saying, was caused by Major. People had no say over Maastricht; I've zero problem with a trading block, I'm against everything else and I don't see EU reforming that ever... |
You have absolutely no idea on the long term prospects, none at all. Nobody does. The only reason the likes of Rees Mogg went down this route of ‘short term pain, long term gain’ is because it’s easy to show the short term challenges. So that screwed the soundbites around there being no downsides, only “a considerable upside”. So they had to reset around a timescale where they couldn’t be proved to be lying.
I’m struggling to see how you have frictionless trade without some harmonisation of standards, but that’s not my thing so maybe you can? I’m also struggling to see how anyone can be against all the joint social, scientific, environmental and cultural initiatives/programmes/collaborations we have as an EU member. Especially since none of those preclude doing similar with countries outside the EU. They’re only positives in my eyes. | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 07:26 - Aug 8 with 832 views | waynekerr55 |
| Another Brexit thread on 21:28 - Aug 7 by Highjack |
The difference is the elected body in our system are the ones who propose, initiate and legislate our laws.
Given the choice I would vote to abolish the lords or at least severely reform it.
Same with the commons really.
But just because our system is undemocratic and crap doesn’t mean we should accept the EU being undemocratic and crap. |
In return for what? A decade or more of economic pain do that our similar system is even more sovereign than it is? | |
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| Another Brexit thread on 08:11 - Aug 8 with 818 views | AlfieMooresSon |
| Another Brexit thread on 20:20 - Aug 7 by waynekerr55 |
That's not EU law, that's employers using the worst aspects of capitalism to drive down wages! |
I agree but they are doing it because they can, as are landlords exploiting them in multiple houses of occupation etc.
The inflow of cheap labour will be reduced with a points system like Australia, we can get Nurses and Doctors and jobs with genuine shortages covered. | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 08:15 - Aug 8 with 813 views | AlfieMooresSon |
| Another Brexit thread on 22:16 - Aug 7 by waynekerr55 |
Is that really worth potentially crashing the economy because of that? |
It's not crashing out, it's leaving without being told what we can and can't do, the deal is not a deal it's a punishment penalty with a treaty to lock us in forever, that's why it can't get through parliament. [Post edited 8 Aug 2019 8:17]
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| Another Brexit thread on 08:21 - Aug 8 with 810 views | AlfieMooresSon |
| Another Brexit thread on 07:26 - Aug 8 by waynekerr55 |
In return for what? A decade or more of economic pain do that our similar system is even more sovereign than it is? |
Project fear, things will settle down very quickly, and will provide amazing opportunities for anyone ready to grasp them, times of change always do! | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 08:40 - Aug 8 with 802 views | bluey_the_blue |
| Another Brexit thread on 22:55 - Aug 7 by LeonWasGod |
You have absolutely no idea on the long term prospects, none at all. Nobody does. The only reason the likes of Rees Mogg went down this route of ‘short term pain, long term gain’ is because it’s easy to show the short term challenges. So that screwed the soundbites around there being no downsides, only “a considerable upside”. So they had to reset around a timescale where they couldn’t be proved to be lying.
I’m struggling to see how you have frictionless trade without some harmonisation of standards, but that’s not my thing so maybe you can? I’m also struggling to see how anyone can be against all the joint social, scientific, environmental and cultural initiatives/programmes/collaborations we have as an EU member. Especially since none of those preclude doing similar with countries outside the EU. They’re only positives in my eyes. |
So since you're saying all the joint social, scientific, environmental and cultural initiatives/programmes/collaborations we have as an EU member don't preclude doing similar with countries outside the EU, then they can continue with us outside the EU, right?
I'm all for a free trade block, like NAFTA. The fundamental problem is harmonisation of so many different cultures, economies etc. Look at the fun and game Euro member has caused... | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 09:13 - Aug 8 with 781 views | waynekerr55 |
| Another Brexit thread on 08:21 - Aug 8 by AlfieMooresSon |
Project fear, things will settle down very quickly, and will provide amazing opportunities for anyone ready to grasp them, times of change always do! |
Project fear, my arse. Even JRM says the benefits won't e seen for 50 years
Sterling has taken a beating, loss of assets and loss of frictionless trade... | |
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| Another Brexit thread on 09:24 - Aug 8 with 778 views | AlfieMooresSon |
| Another Brexit thread on 09:13 - Aug 8 by waynekerr55 |
Project fear, my arse. Even JRM says the benefits won't e seen for 50 years
Sterling has taken a beating, loss of assets and loss of frictionless trade... |
We will come out better and stronger in five years or less, according to project fear we would have been in recession the day after a vote for leave, never happened!
Germany and Europe will go into recession when we leave, their car industry will take a battering until they give us a good trade deal, and they are already losing ground to Korea and the rest on electric cars!
We will be far better off out, but there will be some untangling to do for a year or two! | | | |
| Another Brexit thread on 09:28 - Aug 8 with 773 views | waynekerr55 |
| Another Brexit thread on 09:24 - Aug 8 by AlfieMooresSon |
We will come out better and stronger in five years or less, according to project fear we would have been in recession the day after a vote for leave, never happened!
Germany and Europe will go into recession when we leave, their car industry will take a battering until they give us a good trade deal, and they are already losing ground to Korea and the rest on electric cars!
We will be far better off out, but there will be some untangling to do for a year or two! |
Genuine question Alf, what makes you think we'll be fine in 5 years? We could also have a Corbyn government... | |
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