| The Tories Are Bonkers! 08:51 - Dec 12 with 44933 views | BostonR |
Have been in the US since the summer and arrived back this week and going to the game on Sat.
I have watched the carnage in the US political system, but that was evened-out in the mid-term elections. Watching the madness this morning, it looks like a Tory coup by the ERG and other right-wing nut-cases.
I am no Tory, but May has to see them off before they throw this country under the bus! |  | | |  |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:52 - Dec 12 with 1791 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:06 - Dec 12 by daveB |
problem is a second vote would be close again, possibly 52/48 the other way so nothing would be resolved. |
That's assuming it's a simple Yes/No choice again. and I'd be very surprised if it was.
However, the point is that the result of this referendum would be binding, i.e. must be actioned by the government. As I mentioned originally, the first referendum was, I believe, "advisory", which means the Govt and Parliament were not obliged to take action upon it. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:52 - Dec 12 with 1791 views | daveB |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:16 - Dec 12 by Cliff |
Although I do accept that a second referendum does have problems, as in you can't keep having them until you get the answer you want. I do think this case might be different. We know a lot more (though still not everything) about the effects of leaving via the two options on the table, for instance we know what deal the EU are offering and I don't think anyone can realistically re-negotiate a better deal so I see the options as no deal, the "May" deal or no Brexit. Any second referendum given these choices could be acted on immediately without a two year delay and so even if it were close it could be implemented and over with. |
That just splits the vote though so remain wins.
I voted remain but if we have a second vote it should be no deal or the may deal as the 2 options which really is what the commons vote should have been and ended this madness.
I can't see how we can go back into the EU now, that can't surely be an option |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:54 - Dec 12 with 1785 views | Cliff |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:45 - Dec 12 by loftboy |
So you’re splitting the leave vote in half, how will that work fairly |
Two options immediately come to mind:
1. Ask Leave Yes or No, and if Leave Hard or Soft?
or
2. Single transferable vote system |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:58 - Dec 12 with 1763 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:52 - Dec 12 by daveB |
That just splits the vote though so remain wins.
I voted remain but if we have a second vote it should be no deal or the may deal as the 2 options which really is what the commons vote should have been and ended this madness.
I can't see how we can go back into the EU now, that can't surely be an option |
So the questions are remain in the EU or not really leave |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:04 - Dec 12 with 1753 views | Phildo |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:45 - Dec 12 by loftboy |
So you’re splitting the leave vote in half, how will that work fairly |
two questions
1 stay/go
2 If we vote go- deal/no deal
I think a vote is a bad option but they are all bad options so maybe it is the least bad. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:16 - Dec 12 with 1719 views | hopphoops |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:16 - Dec 12 by Cliff |
Although I do accept that a second referendum does have problems, as in you can't keep having them until you get the answer you want. I do think this case might be different. We know a lot more (though still not everything) about the effects of leaving via the two options on the table, for instance we know what deal the EU are offering and I don't think anyone can realistically re-negotiate a better deal so I see the options as no deal, the "May" deal or no Brexit. Any second referendum given these choices could be acted on immediately without a two year delay and so even if it were close it could be implemented and over with. |
(I just can't let it go...)
I think a second referendum is in fact the only way to resolve the whole thing, and end the uncertainty quickly.
I agree with the hard, Maysoft and no Brexit options, but the form would have to eliminate the third choice so e.g. the votes on the two leave options are not unfairly split. Asking voters for their first and second choices would enable this.
The first referendum was not binding, but due weight must be given to the previous outcome: e.g. if Maysoft wins a majority it wins; but if the choice is between hard and no Brexit then hard would need only 40% or 45% to win while no Brexit would need 60% or 55%. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:19 - Dec 12 with 1713 views | Sharpy36 |
We`ve already had two votes in as many years. Firstly the referendum then a general election. |  |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:36 - Dec 12 with 1685 views | Westy75 |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:52 - Dec 12 by daveB |
That just splits the vote though so remain wins.
I voted remain but if we have a second vote it should be no deal or the may deal as the 2 options which really is what the commons vote should have been and ended this madness.
I can't see how we can go back into the EU now, that can't surely be an option |
Don’t really see why not. We looked over the precipice, saw what a colossal pain in the arse it would be for everyone and for no real benefit, and decided that it really wasn’t worth the bother. Job done. |  | | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:37 - Dec 12 with 1685 views | hopphoops |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:19 - Dec 12 by Sharpy36 |
We`ve already had two votes in as many years. Firstly the referendum then a general election. |
and player of the year, make that three. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:51 - Dec 12 with 1654 views | Antti_Heinola |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:52 - Dec 12 by daveB |
That just splits the vote though so remain wins.
I voted remain but if we have a second vote it should be no deal or the may deal as the 2 options which really is what the commons vote should have been and ended this madness.
I can't see how we can go back into the EU now, that can't surely be an option |
it's the only sensible option, though. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 18:00 - Dec 12 with 1645 views | R_from_afar |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:43 - Dec 12 by Toast_R |
Seemed fairly straight forward at the time. Leave the EU and all that comes with it. Call it hard Brexit or what you will, that was what was on the table. Simple. Why are we still in and why are we begging the EU for anything? It's a shite state of affairs to be in, the rest of the world looks and must be losing any respect they had for our nation. |
Divorces are never easy, especially after 45 years...and when you are hitched to 27 separate partners!
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 18:02 - Dec 12 with 1635 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:51 - Dec 12 by Antti_Heinola |
it's the only sensible option, though. |
I'm not sure why a second referendum is such a problem in a democracy? We have a general election every four years which is expressly designed to allow people to change their mind. And there surely can't be much doubt that the UK is a different place now to what it was in 2016.
Or would everyone be happy if we were told that we could have one more General Election, but that we'd have to abide by the pursuant result for ever more? JC for PM forever, anyone?? | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 18:07 - Dec 12 with 1622 views | R_from_afar |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:01 - Dec 12 by loftboy |
Ive been wanting out the EU for years Clive, if it stayed as it was originally intended a trading block I wouldn’t have a problem, but when you are getting situations when it is being dicated to us what we can or can’t do over our own parliament then I say enough is enough.
I love Europe, I love travelling to Europe and do it frequently I just don’t want to be governed by Europe.
And yes Ryanair, southwestern trains and O2 have been complete bastards to me this year. |
"I love Europe, I love travelling to Europe and do it frequently".
The evil old EU has made our holidays cheaper by clamping down on mobile roaming charges, and cleaning up the UK's beaches via its regulations. If you take the ferry, there will be less chance of you being poisoned by its sulphurous emissions because the EU addressed that too.
Once we are out of the EU, we'll need to take extra care on our hols because the EHIC card will no longer be valid, unless the post-Brexit UK does a deal with the EU. We'll no longer be able to get more or less free medical treatment (as I did; five days in hospital, for a tiny admin fee, when I had a serious eye problem). Losing the EHIC cover scares me to death.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 18:11 - Dec 12 with 1616 views | AgedR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:01 - Dec 12 by Antti_Heinola |
fckin EU and their Human Rights. |
Coming over here... |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 18:17 - Dec 12 with 1597 views | loftboy |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 18:07 - Dec 12 by R_from_afar |
"I love Europe, I love travelling to Europe and do it frequently".
The evil old EU has made our holidays cheaper by clamping down on mobile roaming charges, and cleaning up the UK's beaches via its regulations. If you take the ferry, there will be less chance of you being poisoned by its sulphurous emissions because the EU addressed that too.
Once we are out of the EU, we'll need to take extra care on our hols because the EHIC card will no longer be valid, unless the post-Brexit UK does a deal with the EU. We'll no longer be able to get more or less free medical treatment (as I did; five days in hospital, for a tiny admin fee, when I had a serious eye problem). Losing the EHIC cover scares me to death.
RFA |
Take out decent annual travel insurance, doesn’t cost much, visitors coming here can do the same and it’s less burden for the NHS to cover. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 18:25 - Dec 12 with 1573 views | Esox_Lucius |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:52 - Dec 12 by daveB |
That just splits the vote though so remain wins.
I voted remain but if we have a second vote it should be no deal or the may deal as the 2 options which really is what the commons vote should have been and ended this madness.
I can't see how we can go back into the EU now, that can't surely be an option |
We have been told that we can cancel Brexit if we wish; I assume that is the same thing. |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:01 - Dec 12 with 1513 views | PunteR |
I dont get what we're trying to negotiate?. We're still our own country with our own laws with our own miltary power with massive ties to USA. Whenever has Britain listened to the rest of europe.?
What trade deals? Surely thats down to individual business to thrash out rather then goverment.?
Why is leave or remain the be all or end all. ?
Theres pros and cons ti both sides of the argument from what i can gather so if the majority voted to leave then we should leave. End of discussion isnt it?. The fact we're hesitating make the country look week and vunrable. Poor leadership. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:23 - Dec 12 with 1478 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:36 - Dec 12 by Westy75 |
Don’t really see why not. We looked over the precipice, saw what a colossal pain in the arse it would be for everyone and for no real benefit, and decided that it really wasn’t worth the bother. Job done. |
I have yet to hear from someone on the remain side say we will be simply worse off outside the EU it is always we will be of a magnitude worse off leaving the EU. In fact it seems we cannot leave the EU end of story. I wonder if there is any scenario that would make those on the remain side think of leaving. What about being asked to adopt the Euro, join Schengen for instance. I think it is law now that any treaty change cannot be ratified without a referendum. I cannot see how any remainder, given the dire warnings we have had over the past two years, can vote against any EU treaty and more to the point Brussels knows it. Further into the future how inconvenient it must be for European car makers to have a separate production line to make cars for the UK market. Why should our electric plugs be 3 pinned. It might seem far fetched but who thought we would be where we are now when we voted to join 40 years ago | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:29 - Dec 12 with 1472 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
On the day the average life expectancy of U.K. citizens dropped for the first time since the Second World War and we are on the brink of having medical, food, and material shortages on a scale not seen since U Boats roamed the channel , people are still saying ‘I can’t vote Corbyn because he switched the TV over to Countdown when Fiddler On The Roof was on in 1988’.
The Euro shaggers can get fvcked and Pschopath Brexitters can get fvcked. All they are arguing over is which is the most effeciant way of pulling our pants down: In the EU or out of it. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:33 - Dec 12 with 1462 views | daveB |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:58 - Dec 12 by QPR_John |
So the questions are remain in the EU or not really leave |
No it would be leave with this deal or leave with no deal. Remain wouldn't be on the table as we've already had that vote | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:33 - Dec 12 with 1459 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:29 - Dec 12 by BazzaInTheLoft |
On the day the average life expectancy of U.K. citizens dropped for the first time since the Second World War and we are on the brink of having medical, food, and material shortages on a scale not seen since U Boats roamed the channel , people are still saying ‘I can’t vote Corbyn because he switched the TV over to Countdown when Fiddler On The Roof was on in 1988’.
The Euro shaggers can get fvcked and Pschopath Brexitters can get fvcked. All they are arguing over is which is the most effeciant way of pulling our pants down: In the EU or out of it. |
Well there's hyperbole and then there's plain exaggeration | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:35 - Dec 12 with 1451 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:33 - Dec 12 by daveB |
No it would be leave with this deal or leave with no deal. Remain wouldn't be on the table as we've already had that vote |
My point is leaving with Mays deal is in effect not leaving. I would rather remain than have Mays deal and I don't doubt that remainers advocating a second referendum are banking on others thinking the same way [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 19:38]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:38 - Dec 12 with 1447 views | daveB |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:51 - Dec 12 by Antti_Heinola |
it's the only sensible option, though. |
I agree it's the sensible option but how can we just ignore the first vote and do it again. I can't see how that works or how it would end as any vote with a less than 70% of the vote victory would be argued and fought against same as the last one was.
I'd rather we stayed in the EU but it would make an absolute mockery of democracy to do the same vote again. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:40 - Dec 12 with 1440 views | daveB |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 18:02 - Dec 12 by WatfordR |
I'm not sure why a second referendum is such a problem in a democracy? We have a general election every four years which is expressly designed to allow people to change their mind. And there surely can't be much doubt that the UK is a different place now to what it was in 2016.
Or would everyone be happy if we were told that we could have one more General Election, but that we'd have to abide by the pursuant result for ever more? JC for PM forever, anyone?? |
A General Election though is voting your MP in for the next 4 years so it's a fixed term and of course you do it again every 4 years. The Referendum was supposed to be a one off not a we'll do it again in 2 years if it goes wrong vote | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:42 - Dec 12 with 1436 views | daveB |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:35 - Dec 12 by QPR_John |
My point is leaving with Mays deal is in effect not leaving. I would rather remain than have Mays deal and I don't doubt that remainers advocating a second referendum are banking on others thinking the same way [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 19:38]
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Why is her deal not leaving? The only way we stay in the EU with her deal is if we have to go to the backstop and we both choose to stay in that which I don't think benefits either side. | | | |
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