| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide 13:28 - Nov 7 with 26342 views | Yossarian |
Just being reported by BBC Wales political correspondent Nick Servini that Carl Sergeant has committed suicide after being sacked following allegations of misconduct by various women. Very sad. |  |
| "Yossarian- the very sight of the name made him shudder.There were so many esses in it. It just had to be subversive" (Catch 22) |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 16:51 - Nov 8 with 2041 views | trampie |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 16:29 - Nov 8 by JACKMANANDBOY |
Looks like the First Minister will need to explain what happened here pretty quickly. |
Nothing to do with this case, I support womens rights, but it's gone too far, if there is no witnesses and no evidence then the man should not be found guilty.
Seen a tweet a few days ago, smell the fear politicians, see how you like being accused with the perception and rules as they are etc then this happens - I went back to check the tweet to see if it was before Sargeant death and it was.
As regards this, what is most likely guilty or not ?, how many accusers ?, any in the past ?
What is the chances of it being malicious ?
If innocent he killed himself then did he....why - thought no fair hearing is it ?, if guilty where does it leave the accusers ?, would they be the victims then ? [Post edited 8 Nov 2017 17:23]
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 16:53 - Nov 8 with 2035 views | trampie |
What should Carwyn have done ?, what do other leaders, bosses etc do in similar situations ? | |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:22 - Nov 8 with 2010 views | sP7qupUf |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 16:53 - Nov 8 by trampie |
What should Carwyn have done ?, what do other leaders, bosses etc do in similar situations ? |
You inform them of the exact nature of the allegations made against them.You set up an independent inquiry and inform them of this. You then suspend them as a 'neutral act" which also protects them. You advise them to get professional advice , and direct them to the sources if appropriate. Once the inquiry produces it's findings then you move to the next stage. If proven then you act in line with the disciplinary process if not he returns to his post.
As a person who led and managed a large workforce for many years there were clear processes in place. However, I never moved on a sensitive personnel matter unless I had taken appropriate legal and HR advice from people more expert than I.
I'm sure the First Minister would have taken professional advice before acting. If he did not and took this decision without consulting experts in this field i.e. employment and criminal law I think that he has been very foolish |  | | |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:25 - Nov 8 with 1997 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 16:51 - Nov 8 by trampie |
Nothing to do with this case, I support womens rights, but it's gone too far, if there is no witnesses and no evidence then the man should not be found guilty.
Seen a tweet a few days ago, smell the fear politicians, see how you like being accused with the perception and rules as they are etc then this happens - I went back to check the tweet to see if it was before Sargeant death and it was.
As regards this, what is most likely guilty or not ?, how many accusers ?, any in the past ?
What is the chances of it being malicious ?
If innocent he killed himself then did he....why - thought no fair hearing is it ?, if guilty where does it leave the accusers ?, would they be the victims then ? [Post edited 8 Nov 2017 17:23]
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How can there be evidence and witnesses to accusations of sexual assault or abuse Trampie?
And I don't mean in this case, I mean ever?
And women's rights have gone too far if they expect men who assault them to be prosecuted have they?
Read on here what the response is to this particular case and it demonstrates the problem. Read what the leader of UKIP in the WG said and it further demonstrates the problem.
I cannot imagine any other situation where a person is accused of something and everyone on here would start complaining that the accused wasn't getting the right support or help, or start saying that the accusers had better not be malicious, or telling lies, or trivialising. People are saying the accusers have blood on their hands. Why do they? It's not their fault that a chain of events was set in motion. Presumably what they did (or so it has been said by Carwyn Jones office and also by him), is make a complaint. Nothing that happened after that is their fault.
I have no idea whether Carl Sargeant was innocent or guilty of what he was accused of. But I do know that he was accused by more than one woman (three it is said but I'm not sure that is confirmed) of 'unwanted attention, inappropriate touching or groping'. I know that because his own solicitors wrote a letter confirming it. This is why I also know that he did know what he was accused of - it's in the solicitor's letter. What he may have known or may not have known (we don't know), is any more detail than that. (As an aside I always wonder how someone can emphatically deny what they are accused of if they don't know what they are accused of, but perhaps it was a general denial).
In this case, when it has been investigated, if it turns out that the women have all made up their accusations, then they should be charged. If it turns out that Carwyn acted with too much haste and incorrectly according to the codes of the Labour Party and the WG, then he should lose his position. (Note that the women would in no way be responsible for that). And if it turns out that the man accused was guilty of the accusations, then I hope the women involved and Carwyn Jones are exonerated with the same vigour as people are showing at present in jumping to criticise them.
Whatever happens and however any investigation turns out, it is utterly horrific for the man's family and the headlines in some of today's tabloids are disgusting beyond words. | | | |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:33 - Nov 8 with 1977 views | trampie |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:25 - Nov 8 by londonlisa2001 |
How can there be evidence and witnesses to accusations of sexual assault or abuse Trampie?
And I don't mean in this case, I mean ever?
And women's rights have gone too far if they expect men who assault them to be prosecuted have they?
Read on here what the response is to this particular case and it demonstrates the problem. Read what the leader of UKIP in the WG said and it further demonstrates the problem.
I cannot imagine any other situation where a person is accused of something and everyone on here would start complaining that the accused wasn't getting the right support or help, or start saying that the accusers had better not be malicious, or telling lies, or trivialising. People are saying the accusers have blood on their hands. Why do they? It's not their fault that a chain of events was set in motion. Presumably what they did (or so it has been said by Carwyn Jones office and also by him), is make a complaint. Nothing that happened after that is their fault.
I have no idea whether Carl Sargeant was innocent or guilty of what he was accused of. But I do know that he was accused by more than one woman (three it is said but I'm not sure that is confirmed) of 'unwanted attention, inappropriate touching or groping'. I know that because his own solicitors wrote a letter confirming it. This is why I also know that he did know what he was accused of - it's in the solicitor's letter. What he may have known or may not have known (we don't know), is any more detail than that. (As an aside I always wonder how someone can emphatically deny what they are accused of if they don't know what they are accused of, but perhaps it was a general denial).
In this case, when it has been investigated, if it turns out that the women have all made up their accusations, then they should be charged. If it turns out that Carwyn acted with too much haste and incorrectly according to the codes of the Labour Party and the WG, then he should lose his position. (Note that the women would in no way be responsible for that). And if it turns out that the man accused was guilty of the accusations, then I hope the women involved and Carwyn Jones are exonerated with the same vigour as people are showing at present in jumping to criticise them.
Whatever happens and however any investigation turns out, it is utterly horrific for the man's family and the headlines in some of today's tabloids are disgusting beyond words. |
As regards your first paragraph - Exactly
So what do you think should happen ??? - no witnesses, no evidence, first time accused, only one accuser - what do you think should happen ?, should the man be found guilty in that scenario or not ? (not talking about this case as you know). | |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:34 - Nov 8 with 1981 views | Yossarian |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:25 - Nov 8 by londonlisa2001 |
How can there be evidence and witnesses to accusations of sexual assault or abuse Trampie?
And I don't mean in this case, I mean ever?
And women's rights have gone too far if they expect men who assault them to be prosecuted have they?
Read on here what the response is to this particular case and it demonstrates the problem. Read what the leader of UKIP in the WG said and it further demonstrates the problem.
I cannot imagine any other situation where a person is accused of something and everyone on here would start complaining that the accused wasn't getting the right support or help, or start saying that the accusers had better not be malicious, or telling lies, or trivialising. People are saying the accusers have blood on their hands. Why do they? It's not their fault that a chain of events was set in motion. Presumably what they did (or so it has been said by Carwyn Jones office and also by him), is make a complaint. Nothing that happened after that is their fault.
I have no idea whether Carl Sargeant was innocent or guilty of what he was accused of. But I do know that he was accused by more than one woman (three it is said but I'm not sure that is confirmed) of 'unwanted attention, inappropriate touching or groping'. I know that because his own solicitors wrote a letter confirming it. This is why I also know that he did know what he was accused of - it's in the solicitor's letter. What he may have known or may not have known (we don't know), is any more detail than that. (As an aside I always wonder how someone can emphatically deny what they are accused of if they don't know what they are accused of, but perhaps it was a general denial).
In this case, when it has been investigated, if it turns out that the women have all made up their accusations, then they should be charged. If it turns out that Carwyn acted with too much haste and incorrectly according to the codes of the Labour Party and the WG, then he should lose his position. (Note that the women would in no way be responsible for that). And if it turns out that the man accused was guilty of the accusations, then I hope the women involved and Carwyn Jones are exonerated with the same vigour as people are showing at present in jumping to criticise them.
Whatever happens and however any investigation turns out, it is utterly horrific for the man's family and the headlines in some of today's tabloids are disgusting beyond words. |
And just how do you propose to prove these allegations now then? | |
| "Yossarian- the very sight of the name made him shudder.There were so many esses in it. It just had to be subversive" (Catch 22) |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:42 - Nov 8 with 1962 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:33 - Nov 8 by trampie |
As regards your first paragraph - Exactly
So what do you think should happen ??? - no witnesses, no evidence, first time accused, only one accuser - what do you think should happen ?, should the man be found guilty in that scenario or not ? (not talking about this case as you know). |
If there is no evidence whatsoever and no corroboration then it amounts to her word against his in which case it would be impossible to find anything other than not guilty beyond reasonsable doubt.
That's exactly the reason that names are made public in these cases, as it can lead to others coming forward. Because if, as in the Weinstein case, it amounts to her word (x 30 plus) against his, then there is sufficient evidence on which to convict.
In the first instance, it does not mean the woman has lied though does it. | | | |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:44 - Nov 8 with 1956 views | NOTRAC |
Unwanted attention.What does that mean? Touching? Groping?
What I don't understand is if they felt that concerned why didn't they complain at the time.
Trivialising comes to mind, which is not fair to men or women that have suffered serious abuse.
There is a story in today's Times that the students union have complained about an e-mail sent to his students telling them to work hard and play little.
Before long we will all be afraid to look at each other.Handshakes and hugs will definitely be out! | |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:45 - Nov 8 with 1947 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:34 - Nov 8 by Yossarian |
And just how do you propose to prove these allegations now then? |
I don't. I have no idea how they will investigate this now, the releasing of documentation from the family hardly helps matters though, as Carwyn Jones is now almost forced to release information from his perspective. Comments from Hamilton etc are also forcing the matter.
But there are plenty of instances where these situations are investigated when the accused is dead. | | | |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:47 - Nov 8 with 1941 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:44 - Nov 8 by NOTRAC |
Unwanted attention.What does that mean? Touching? Groping?
What I don't understand is if they felt that concerned why didn't they complain at the time.
Trivialising comes to mind, which is not fair to men or women that have suffered serious abuse.
There is a story in today's Times that the students union have complained about an e-mail sent to his students telling them to work hard and play little.
Before long we will all be afraid to look at each other.Handshakes and hugs will definitely be out! |
Seriously just f*ck off. | | | |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:48 - Nov 8 with 1940 views | trampie |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:42 - Nov 8 by londonlisa2001 |
If there is no evidence whatsoever and no corroboration then it amounts to her word against his in which case it would be impossible to find anything other than not guilty beyond reasonsable doubt.
That's exactly the reason that names are made public in these cases, as it can lead to others coming forward. Because if, as in the Weinstein case, it amounts to her word (x 30 plus) against his, then there is sufficient evidence on which to convict.
In the first instance, it does not mean the woman has lied though does it. |
Yes the man should walk every single time in the circumstance I outline.
Yet recently men are apparently getting locked up, one word against another, that is absolutely terrible and a stain on our country. | |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:52 - Nov 8 with 1929 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:48 - Nov 8 by trampie |
Yes the man should walk every single time in the circumstance I outline.
Yet recently men are apparently getting locked up, one word against another, that is absolutely terrible and a stain on our country. |
It's a shame that you don't believe the stain on our country is the seemingly inordinate amount of unwanted sexual harassment, abuse and assault that women and other men suffer at the hands of predatory bullies that think they can get away with it because it's so difficult to get evidence Trampie. | | | |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 18:01 - Nov 8 with 1918 views | whoflungdung |
You care about English women !trampie | |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 18:13 - Nov 8 with 1900 views | trampie |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:52 - Nov 8 by londonlisa2001 |
It's a shame that you don't believe the stain on our country is the seemingly inordinate amount of unwanted sexual harassment, abuse and assault that women and other men suffer at the hands of predatory bullies that think they can get away with it because it's so difficult to get evidence Trampie. |
It's a crime often with no witnesses and often one word against another in that circumstance the man should walk otherwise there will be more and more innocent people in jail, there should be no alternative and I believe you know it, things are getting out of hand, no man at this rate will be safe. | |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 18:21 - Nov 8 with 1897 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 18:13 - Nov 8 by trampie |
It's a crime often with no witnesses and often one word against another in that circumstance the man should walk otherwise there will be more and more innocent people in jail, there should be no alternative and I believe you know it, things are getting out of hand, no man at this rate will be safe. |
That would be a change from the situation that has endured for very many years where no woman is safe from sexual predators because said predators know that one woman’s word against his keeps him free to abuse at his leisure.
When numerous women describe similar incidents however, the evidence becomes overwhelming and this is why people who have been accused are named. |  |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 18:22 - Nov 8 with 1892 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 18:13 - Nov 8 by trampie |
It's a crime often with no witnesses and often one word against another in that circumstance the man should walk otherwise there will be more and more innocent people in jail, there should be no alternative and I believe you know it, things are getting out of hand, no man at this rate will be safe. |
I've already stated my position on a case where it's truly one word against another. Which really doesn't happen anywhere near as often as you think. And certainly doesn't result in people being imprisoned. It's a great shame though hardly surprising that you don't give two hoots about women's safety though.
Leanne's statement on this particular issue was exceptionally carefully worded wasn't it? | | | |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 18:41 - Nov 8 with 1869 views | trampie |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 18:22 - Nov 8 by londonlisa2001 |
I've already stated my position on a case where it's truly one word against another. Which really doesn't happen anywhere near as often as you think. And certainly doesn't result in people being imprisoned. It's a great shame though hardly surprising that you don't give two hoots about women's safety though.
Leanne's statement on this particular issue was exceptionally carefully worded wasn't it? |
I read about a case last night, the guy was sent to prison, his accuser at a later date admitted in drink it was not true, it was one word against another and he wrongly went down, there was a retrial and he was then found not guilty. [Post edited 8 Nov 2017 19:08]
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 19:36 - Nov 8 with 1825 views | Private_Partz |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 17:45 - Nov 8 by londonlisa2001 |
I don't. I have no idea how they will investigate this now, the releasing of documentation from the family hardly helps matters though, as Carwyn Jones is now almost forced to release information from his perspective. Comments from Hamilton etc are also forcing the matter.
But there are plenty of instances where these situations are investigated when the accused is dead. |
It gets worse. There are suggestions now that Sergeant's mental health was a known concern. Also Leighton Andrews has claimed the deceased was subject to victimisation for several years. The First Minister needs to act pdq imho. [Post edited 8 Nov 2017 19:37]
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| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 19:54 - Nov 8 with 1798 views | trampie |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 19:36 - Nov 8 by Private_Partz |
It gets worse. There are suggestions now that Sergeant's mental health was a known concern. Also Leighton Andrews has claimed the deceased was subject to victimisation for several years. The First Minister needs to act pdq imho. [Post edited 8 Nov 2017 19:37]
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Leighton Andrews is one guy I don't like, urgh, as regards any potential mental issues, so ?
I don't mean that flippantly but are people with mental issues not to be taken on ? | |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 19:58 - Nov 8 with 1787 views | Jack_Meoff |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 19:54 - Nov 8 by trampie |
Leighton Andrews is one guy I don't like, urgh, as regards any potential mental issues, so ?
I don't mean that flippantly but are people with mental issues not to be taken on ? |
I shouldn't need to say this tramp but he really shouldn't have been left to simmer on what he may have done without actually being informed of what. Could have driven anyone of sound mind over the edge, particularly in a case so public. C'mon man, did that need saying? [Post edited 8 Nov 2017 19:59]
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| If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--forever. |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 20:14 - Nov 8 with 1760 views | trampie |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 19:58 - Nov 8 by Jack_Meoff |
I shouldn't need to say this tramp but he really shouldn't have been left to simmer on what he may have done without actually being informed of what. Could have driven anyone of sound mind over the edge, particularly in a case so public. C'mon man, did that need saying? [Post edited 8 Nov 2017 19:59]
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He knew the accusation apparently but not the detail. | |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 20:24 - Nov 8 with 1739 views | whoflungdung |
I word self righteous was used against me
Sadly ,that could be aimed at many in this country when allegations of this nature are made
Because of this fact , incidents like this are all too common | |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 20:26 - Nov 8 with 1735 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 20:24 - Nov 8 by whoflungdung |
I word self righteous was used against me
Sadly ,that could be aimed at many in this country when allegations of this nature are made
Because of this fact , incidents like this are all too common |
Not as common as incidents of unreported and unpunished sexual assault. |  |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 20:31 - Nov 8 with 1723 views | whoflungdung |
Am I suggesting it is?
One allegation is enough in itself to tear a family to pieces as the trust will never be the same
Problem is people at large believe an allegation if a person is in a senior position or a politician
It's difficult and ive seen the results of unreported sexual and physical assaults within and outside family units. | |
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| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 20:34 - Nov 8 with 1713 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Carl Sergeant apparently commits suicide on 20:31 - Nov 8 by whoflungdung |
Am I suggesting it is?
One allegation is enough in itself to tear a family to pieces as the trust will never be the same
Problem is people at large believe an allegation if a person is in a senior position or a politician
It's difficult and ive seen the results of unreported sexual and physical assaults within and outside family units. |
"Problem is people at large believe an allegation if a person is in a senior position or a politician"
No they don't. As you can see on here. | | | |
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