| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? 08:05 - Nov 13 with 1549 views | AnotherJohn |
Wes Streeting is in the news today with his statements about hospital league tables and sackings for managers who fail to get waiting lists down. Older forum members may remember that this is similar to the policies introduced after 2000 when Labour was last in power - the period of so-called "targets and terror."
https://www.lse.ac.uk/Research/research-impact-case-studies/improving-public-ser
https://www.bristol.ac.uk/cmpo/audio/targets.html
Will it work this time around you may ask? Well, it did at one level because Labour did get waiting times down. However, some would say that this had more to do with the major increase in NHS funding at that time than with cracking the whip. The downsides of targets and terror included gaming of the system by manipulating performance data, a negative impact on management morale, and focusing on certain objectives at the expense of others. It was said by Bevan and Hood that "what's measured is what matters", leading, for example, to complaints from doctors that non-serious cases about to exceed waiting times targets were prioritised over more serious cases who hadn't waited as long. We shall have to see how it works out this time.
There is always a certain resonance when politicians say the NHS needs reform - and especially given how things are now. The trouble is that the NHS since around the mid-1970s has been locked into a kind of Maoist permanent revolution. Some commentators were arguing that what was needed was a period of stability and consolidation, but it turned out that the most recent lull in reform coincided with a steeply rising and ageing population, constrained budgets, a crisis in social care and a pandemic. [Post edited 13 Nov 8:15]
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 08:25 - Nov 13 with 1188 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
The human response to workplace targets is, in order:
Fiddle the data
Fiddle the process
or set about creating a genuine improvement
I'd prefer to see a focus on best practice by establishing service models based on the best performing departments. If people can't replicate ' best performance ' then start looking at performance issues |  |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 09:03 - Nov 13 with 1144 views | onehunglow |
Worlocks
So if I’m taking ill and need A and E , I eshew my local hospital as its bottom of the league and go to one higher up the league ?
Steeeting proving an absolute jerk | |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 13:15 - Nov 13 with 1092 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 08:25 - Nov 13 by JACKMANANDBOY |
The human response to workplace targets is, in order:
Fiddle the data
Fiddle the process
or set about creating a genuine improvement
I'd prefer to see a focus on best practice by establishing service models based on the best performing departments. If people can't replicate ' best performance ' then start looking at performance issues |
Wasn’t it Alan B’stard who famously planned to bring down waiting lists by not putting people on the waiting lists in the first place?
“In the good old days, if you were poor, you got ill, and you died!” |  |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 13:35 - Nov 13 with 1087 views | Flashberryjack |
Last week my daughter was rushed to A & E at Morriston hospital (by car no ambulances available) with suspected sepsis.
She spent 4 days in a wheelchair there on a drip, it was like a zoo in there, I'm sure things will improve when we get 30 new members at the Senedd. |  |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 13:36 - Nov 13 with 1086 views | AnotherJohn |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 13:15 - Nov 13 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Wasn’t it Alan B’stard who famously planned to bring down waiting lists by not putting people on the waiting lists in the first place?
“In the good old days, if you were poor, you got ill, and you died!” |
I can't remember much about Mr Beresford B'stard, but the Alan who was implicated in the NHS reforms of 2000-2003 was Alan Milburn. Apart from targets, that was the period when Labour gave the Tories' NHS internal market a new twist by creating a "provider market" in which private hospitals willing to deliver treatments at the NHS tariff could do NHS work. This was also the time when more autonomous NHS Foundation Trust hospitals were created. Milburn seems to be in the background advising Streeting, so talk of a bigger role for the private sector and greater autonomy for well-performing NHS hospitals may be a case of "back to the future".
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/underperforming-nhs-hospitals-to-be-named
I will try to find some of the old episodes of The New Stateman to catch up on the original Alan B'stard. [Post edited 13 Nov 13:38]
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 13:56 - Nov 13 with 1068 views | onehunglow |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 13:35 - Nov 13 by Flashberryjack |
Last week my daughter was rushed to A & E at Morriston hospital (by car no ambulances available) with suspected sepsis.
She spent 4 days in a wheelchair there on a drip, it was like a zoo in there, I'm sure things will improve when we get 30 new members at the Senedd. |
Hope she’s is better mate
Awful to read this suff | |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 14:17 - Nov 13 with 1061 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 13:36 - Nov 13 by AnotherJohn |
I can't remember much about Mr Beresford B'stard, but the Alan who was implicated in the NHS reforms of 2000-2003 was Alan Milburn. Apart from targets, that was the period when Labour gave the Tories' NHS internal market a new twist by creating a "provider market" in which private hospitals willing to deliver treatments at the NHS tariff could do NHS work. This was also the time when more autonomous NHS Foundation Trust hospitals were created. Milburn seems to be in the background advising Streeting, so talk of a bigger role for the private sector and greater autonomy for well-performing NHS hospitals may be a case of "back to the future".
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/underperforming-nhs-hospitals-to-be-named
I will try to find some of the old episodes of The New Stateman to catch up on the original Alan B'stard. [Post edited 13 Nov 13:38]
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Surely not the same Alan Milburn who has made millions from private healthcare?
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2024/10/18/alan-milburn-streeting-care-uk/ | |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 15:16 - Nov 13 with 1014 views | SullutaCreturned |
Labour voter will never believe it, a Labour politician, party member making millions out of private medical care and advising the current health secretary on what to do...
What can possibly go wrong with Labour in power eh? A lot of people thought we must be better off simply by getting Labour in instead of the tories, what a load of guff eh. It's a different horse but the same jockey, Mr Greed and his friends, Mr self serving and Mrs hypocrisy. [Post edited 13 Nov 15:24]
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 15:20 - Nov 13 with 997 views | onehunglow |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 15:16 - Nov 13 by SullutaCreturned |
Labour voter will never believe it, a Labour politician, party member making millions out of private medical care and advising the current health secretary on what to do...
What can possibly go wrong with Labour in power eh? A lot of people thought we must be better off simply by getting Labour in instead of the tories, what a load of guff eh. It's a different horse but the same jockey, Mr Greed and his friends, Mr self serving and Mrs hypocrisy. [Post edited 13 Nov 15:24]
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As I predicted ,those who voted for them are going to regret doing so very quickly
They seem as duplicitous and devious as the the previous shower | |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 16:19 - Nov 13 with 967 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 15:20 - Nov 13 by onehunglow |
As I predicted ,those who voted for them are going to regret doing so very quickly
They seem as duplicitous and devious as the the previous shower |
There can not be a conflict of interest for a man paid to advise the Government on the NHS when he is still employed as a consultant for private health care providers from which he has made an estimated £8M.
Starmer said he clean up politics, I think he meant clean up from politics! | |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 17:14 - Nov 13 with 950 views | union_jack |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 13:35 - Nov 13 by Flashberryjack |
Last week my daughter was rushed to A & E at Morriston hospital (by car no ambulances available) with suspected sepsis.
She spent 4 days in a wheelchair there on a drip, it was like a zoo in there, I'm sure things will improve when we get 30 new members at the Senedd. |
Wishing you , her and your family all the best. Hope everything is ok. |  |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 17:18 - Nov 13 with 946 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 16:19 - Nov 13 by JACKMANANDBOY |
There can not be a conflict of interest for a man paid to advise the Government on the NHS when he is still employed as a consultant for private health care providers from which he has made an estimated £8M.
Starmer said he clean up politics, I think he meant clean up from politics! |
“To change Britain, we must change ourselves – we need to clean up politics. No more VIP fast lanes, no more kickbacks for colleagues, no more revolving doors between government and the companies they regulate”
“I will restore standards in public life with a total crackdown on cronyism.”
“It’s not a game. Politics isn’t a hobby, a pastime for people who enjoy the feeling of power, and nor is it a sermon from on high, a self-regarding lecture, vanity dressed up as virtue.”
All empty words. | |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 17:21 - Nov 13 with 943 views | SullutaCreturned |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 17:18 - Nov 13 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
“To change Britain, we must change ourselves – we need to clean up politics. No more VIP fast lanes, no more kickbacks for colleagues, no more revolving doors between government and the companies they regulate”
“I will restore standards in public life with a total crackdown on cronyism.”
“It’s not a game. Politics isn’t a hobby, a pastime for people who enjoy the feeling of power, and nor is it a sermon from on high, a self-regarding lecture, vanity dressed up as virtue.”
All empty words. |
Oh they weren't empty, they were filled with misdirection which fooled people into thinking Labour will be the answer.
They were fine words and they should have been true, honest and heartfelt but they were just so much political chicanery to get him into power. | | | |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 17:22 - Nov 13 with 941 views | pencoedjack |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 15:20 - Nov 13 by onehunglow |
As I predicted ,those who voted for them are going to regret doing so very quickly
They seem as duplicitous and devious as the the previous shower |
Said it many times the NHS shouldn’t be used as a political football & should be managed possibly as a cross party / independent body.
Anyone who has spent any time in hospitals would realise there is no point continually pumping money in as there is so much dead wood & need to update working practices that should be the starting point.
As for underperforming managers being called out/sacked i don’t see the issue, it’s what happens in the private sector if you are crap at your job. |  | | |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 18:03 - Nov 13 with 921 views | Flashberryjack |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 17:14 - Nov 13 by union_jack |
Wishing you , her and your family all the best. Hope everything is ok. |
She's home now thanks. | |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 18:22 - Nov 13 with 919 views | Luther27 |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 13:35 - Nov 13 by Flashberryjack |
Last week my daughter was rushed to A & E at Morriston hospital (by car no ambulances available) with suspected sepsis.
She spent 4 days in a wheelchair there on a drip, it was like a zoo in there, I'm sure things will improve when we get 30 new members at the Senedd. |
Heart goes out to you and your family mate. It shouldn’t have come to this. I hope she’s recovering well and get better soon. | | | |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 18:33 - Nov 13 with 912 views | pencoedjack |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 13:35 - Nov 13 by Flashberryjack |
Last week my daughter was rushed to A & E at Morriston hospital (by car no ambulances available) with suspected sepsis.
She spent 4 days in a wheelchair there on a drip, it was like a zoo in there, I'm sure things will improve when we get 30 new members at the Senedd. |
Hopes she’s on the mend Flash. | | | |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 18:49 - Nov 13 with 903 views | felixstowe_jack |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 17:22 - Nov 13 by pencoedjack |
Said it many times the NHS shouldn’t be used as a political football & should be managed possibly as a cross party / independent body.
Anyone who has spent any time in hospitals would realise there is no point continually pumping money in as there is so much dead wood & need to update working practices that should be the starting point.
As for underperforming managers being called out/sacked i don’t see the issue, it’s what happens in the private sector if you are crap at your job. |
Unfortunately sacking under performing staff in the civil service or public sector is very difficult. I suspect under performing managers will be moved sideways or given early retirement on a full index linked pension. | |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 19:27 - Nov 13 with 888 views | pencoedjack |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 18:49 - Nov 13 by felixstowe_jack |
Unfortunately sacking under performing staff in the civil service or public sector is very difficult. I suspect under performing managers will be moved sideways or given early retirement on a full index linked pension. |
Yep I know but it’s what should happen public or private. | | | |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 06:04 - Nov 14 with 831 views | Ohyeah |
He is not far wrong here if they do not perform then get rid.
Far to many people are promoted to senior positions in public funded organisations but not on talent or being competent but how many boxes they tick. | | | |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 08:02 - Nov 14 with 801 views | Dr_Winston |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 06:04 - Nov 14 by Ohyeah |
He is not far wrong here if they do not perform then get rid.
Far to many people are promoted to senior positions in public funded organisations but not on talent or being competent but how many boxes they tick. |
It's not so much ticking boxes, but the Civil Service promotion processes are very much a system that can be gamed. I know of numerous examples where people have been promoted using examples of work that were done by other people, but as long as you write and say the right things at the right times they don't care. I'm not aware of anything, ever, having been checked.
Your ability at the job is irrelevant. Your ability at the applications and interviews is everything. Capable people can get on, but not because they're good at what they do day to day. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 10:11 - Nov 15 with 668 views | controversial_jack |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 08:02 - Nov 14 by Dr_Winston |
It's not so much ticking boxes, but the Civil Service promotion processes are very much a system that can be gamed. I know of numerous examples where people have been promoted using examples of work that were done by other people, but as long as you write and say the right things at the right times they don't care. I'm not aware of anything, ever, having been checked.
Your ability at the job is irrelevant. Your ability at the applications and interviews is everything. Capable people can get on, but not because they're good at what they do day to day. |
It was the same in any job i had. It was the noshers and networkers that got on. Fire off loads of e mails to your boss just before the interview for the role or claim credit that others did. I don't know why supervisors don't see through this strategy | | | |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 17:44 - Nov 15 with 597 views | SullutaCreturned |
| NHS: The return of "targets and terror"? on 08:02 - Nov 14 by Dr_Winston |
It's not so much ticking boxes, but the Civil Service promotion processes are very much a system that can be gamed. I know of numerous examples where people have been promoted using examples of work that were done by other people, but as long as you write and say the right things at the right times they don't care. I'm not aware of anything, ever, having been checked.
Your ability at the job is irrelevant. Your ability at the applications and interviews is everything. Capable people can get on, but not because they're good at what they do day to day. |
Yeah I've seen a lot of that too. Mediocre people taking credit and moving up. I actually caught an acting manager trying to take credit for something I did once, I called him out on it in front of the senior manager. The senior didn't care though because the acting was a slimy, brown nosing ass and that was what he liked, people who would do whatever he said. | | | |
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