| Cifuentes gone? on 18:00 - Nov 24 with 2874 views | Northernr |
| Cifuentes gone? on 17:57 - Nov 24 by Ned_Kennedys |
Seems a bit of a risk for an ambitious manager trying to make his name in English football to sacrifice it all for a few quid more when he’s sacked. Very much doubt he agreed a new contract just for the money. |
I don't understand, what's he sacrificed?
"Oh, we were quite keen on that Marti Cifuentes, but remember when he took that pay rise they offered him? That put me right off him." |  | |  |
| Cifuentes gone? on 18:01 - Nov 24 with 2852 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| Cifuentes gone? on 17:57 - Nov 24 by Ned_Kennedys |
Seems a bit of a risk for an ambitious manager trying to make his name in English football to sacrifice it all for a few quid more when he’s sacked. Very much doubt he agreed a new contract just for the money. |
And yet, so QPR to improve his and I assume Snr. Calm's contracts, only to give them the Spanish archer a matter of weeks later! |  |
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| Cifuentes gone? on 18:08 - Nov 24 with 2750 views | davman |
Thinking about what I'd like to hear from the board if they were to say SOMETHING.
If they came out and said "we appreciate things are not great at the moment and the first team is in a hard spot. We acknowledge that performances from top to bottom have not matched what any of us expect. However, we are ALL in this together and will stick together whatever happens. We believe in our model and that performances and results will improve once the injuries subside and squad members get used to the rigours of the Championship. Now is the time to get behind Marti and the lads as it is VITAL we all stick together".
For me, that'd work, but others will say, "you cannot promise to stick with everyone no matter what" and usually they'd be right.
Not now though...
Thoughts on what you'd want them to say (if anything)... [Post edited 25 Nov 1:21]
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| Cifuentes gone? on 18:14 - Nov 24 with 2680 views | ytt28 |
If, Marti is sacked, if. Then Nourry and Belk should be too. Of the three Marti is the one with the least blame.
Any new manager would face the same issues Marti has, albeit some of the injured players are returning to fitness and others will shortly follow.
The owners should make public their intent on ensuring Marti remaining and if it comes to it be the one who leads our promotion push from L1 next season, the manager is not the problem/issue here. |  | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 18:23 - Nov 24 with 2528 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Cifuentes gone? on 17:51 - Nov 24 by Northernr |
"Would you like a pay rise and a bigger pay out if we sack you?"
"No thanks." |
So it all comes down to money, and Marti has zero culpability for signing up for our data-driven, CEO-led 'recruitment model' (then whining about it)? Seriously, give me a break!
I know the pro game is about as ethical as Faustian wager, but I didn't have you down as that much of a cynic, Clive. |  |
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| Cifuentes gone? on 18:27 - Nov 24 with 2493 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Cifuentes gone? on 18:00 - Nov 24 by Northernr |
I don't understand, what's he sacrificed?
"Oh, we were quite keen on that Marti Cifuentes, but remember when he took that pay rise they offered him? That put me right off him." |
To repeat, and I'm not sure why this seems to be such a blind/deaf spot for one or two as it's fairly simple, if he's signed a new contract 'for the money', he's also signed up for the recruitment model. That's the calcuated risk with his reputation he's taken, if you like, and chosen to take. If he ends up QPRed, though I still think Marti seems to be much more sinned against than sinning, it'll have been his choice in the end. [Post edited 24 Nov 18:29]
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| Cifuentes gone? on 18:33 - Nov 24 with 2446 views | Padulas_Shampoo |
| Cifuentes gone? on 18:27 - Nov 24 by stainrods_elbow |
To repeat, and I'm not sure why this seems to be such a blind/deaf spot for one or two as it's fairly simple, if he's signed a new contract 'for the money', he's also signed up for the recruitment model. That's the calcuated risk with his reputation he's taken, if you like, and chosen to take. If he ends up QPRed, though I still think Marti seems to be much more sinned against than sinning, it'll have been his choice in the end. [Post edited 24 Nov 18:29]
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What’s your point though? He had always signed up to the recruitment model since the day he arrived here. He’s a coach.
You appear to be agreeing that the recruitment and work the CEO has done is appalling but still want to blame Marti because he agreed to live and die by it when agreeing to coach the team? Even if so… don’t you think the issue is the recruitment rather than the guy that had the audacity to agree to coach the team here? |  | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 18:36 - Nov 24 with 2409 views | Northernr |
| Cifuentes gone? on 18:27 - Nov 24 by stainrods_elbow |
To repeat, and I'm not sure why this seems to be such a blind/deaf spot for one or two as it's fairly simple, if he's signed a new contract 'for the money', he's also signed up for the recruitment model. That's the calcuated risk with his reputation he's taken, if you like, and chosen to take. If he ends up QPRed, though I still think Marti seems to be much more sinned against than sinning, it'll have been his choice in the end. [Post edited 24 Nov 18:29]
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Well we can all talk to each other like that if you want.
I'm not sure why this seems to be such a blind/deaf spot for you as it's fairly simple. | | | |
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| Cifuentes gone? on 18:40 - Nov 24 with 2332 views | Northolt_Rs |
| Cifuentes gone? on 18:08 - Nov 24 by davman |
Thinking about what I'd like to hear from the board if they were to say SOMETHING.
If they came out and said "we appreciate things are not great at the moment and the first team is in a hard spot. We acknowledge that performances from top to bottom have not matched what any of us expect. However, we are ALL in this together and will stick together whatever happens. We believe in our model and that performances and results will improve once the injuries subside and squad members get used to the rigours of the Championship. Now is the time to get behind Marti and the lads as it is VITAL we all stick together".
For me, that'd work, but others will say, "you cannot promise to stick with everyone no matter what" and usually they'd be right.
Not now though...
Thoughts on what you'd want them to say (if anything)... [Post edited 25 Nov 1:21]
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“We wish Christian Nourry and Andy Belk all the best with their future careers….” |  |
| Scooters, Tunes, Trainers and QPR. |
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| Cifuentes gone? on 18:51 - Nov 24 with 2213 views | Northernr |
An additional point I would repeat on this contract thing.
The contract was announced at the fan forum. Jake Clarke-Salter's contract was announced at the fan forum. Dembele making his move permanent "after passing the requisite number of appearances" (six at that stage).
Were all those deals done that Monday? That weekend? Is that Dembele thing even true?
The club have shown themselves untrustworthy under this CEO.
I first heard about Cifuentes getting a new contract at the end of June, when he was being half-heartedly linked with Burnley and quite heavily linked with Sunderland up there.
It is perfectly possible that deal was signed before the transfer window even really got going.
He was complaining about the recruitment as far back as Reading in pre-season. | | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:02 - Nov 24 with 2109 views | Padulas_Shampoo |
| Cifuentes gone? on 18:51 - Nov 24 by Northernr |
An additional point I would repeat on this contract thing.
The contract was announced at the fan forum. Jake Clarke-Salter's contract was announced at the fan forum. Dembele making his move permanent "after passing the requisite number of appearances" (six at that stage).
Were all those deals done that Monday? That weekend? Is that Dembele thing even true?
The club have shown themselves untrustworthy under this CEO.
I first heard about Cifuentes getting a new contract at the end of June, when he was being half-heartedly linked with Burnley and quite heavily linked with Sunderland up there.
It is perfectly possible that deal was signed before the transfer window even really got going.
He was complaining about the recruitment as far back as Reading in pre-season. |
You want to get down to an optician with all those blind spots Clive. Surprised you can see anything at all. | | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:05 - Nov 24 with 2084 views | baz_qpr |
New manager is not going to achieve anything. I don't place accountability with him for where we are. This is the result of a number of years failure in the recruitment space. And tbh I'm even willing to cut Nourry some slack he is learning on the job, he's made some good decisions and some poor ones and sometimes things will get worse before they get better and in any job in life you learn more from your mistakes. Is the overall strategy wrong probably not we need to recruit to sell to progress the club. We dont know if the Dykes sale was to fund something else, or because we had FFP issues still The Cannon situation was a gamble that went wrong from last year.
If we are looking at accountability and our issues are fitness and recruitment. Then surely the heads of recruitment and performance have to be the ones that are accountable. But the problem with this club over the last decade has been the constant seeking of the "magic bullet" and their aint one this will take years to turn and every time we reach for the bullet and change it all again we go back to square 1. |  | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:06 - Nov 24 with 2072 views | FDC |
Some people seem to be making the argument that if you sign a contract as a coach with the knowledge that the club signs players with a model that involves the CEO/DOF, their analytics and recruitment team etc then you don't have a leg to stand on when it doesn't work out.
But the point isn't that the club has this recruitment model -- all clubs have this approach or similar these days. The point is that the specific signings that have been made this summer have largely turned out to be poor, and the argument beinf made is that this is a big contribution to poor results. Other clubs with the same approach to player recruitment have been far more successful. |  | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:12 - Nov 24 with 1994 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Cifuentes gone? on 18:36 - Nov 24 by Northernr |
Well we can all talk to each other like that if you want.
I'm not sure why this seems to be such a blind/deaf spot for you as it's fairly simple. |
Fine - if some people don't want to (or can't bear to) take the point I've made clearly, and several times, out of a one-eyed need to uphold the party line, to amplify ad hominem idioms rather than engaging with the discussion raised, or blame Nourry for everything and pretend that Marti is some kind of innocent industrial victim/man of nobility at odds with circumstances, all I can say is there's none so deaf as those who won't listen.
As it is, as I see it, and taking the whole picture into consideration, what comes across is MC (i) feathering his nest, (ii) trying to keep the fans onside by telling us he's making recommendations to the club as to squad additions etc. and implying the club isn't delivering while (iii) telling us he's telling the players they're 'the best in the world'. The word 'compromised' doesn't begin to cover it, and reminds me of R D Laing's statement that the best of us are the defenceless ones who are driven mad by the insanity of the world, but welcome to professinal football. You probably need to have multiple personality disorder to be a football coach/manager (and apparently Director of Nothing) these days. If he's 'just a coach', unfortunately, the bottom line is he's not doing a very good job of it right now, and the club is justified in asking questions as to why that is. Are the players improving? Are there clear patterns of play? Can we take a set piece?
For the record, I like Marti, he still has real credit in the bank for me, and think Nourry is a seductive/opportunist toerag, so there's a degree of 'advocatus diaboli' in my argument, but only a degree. However, he's not pure as the driven snow, he's chosen to work at QPR, and it won't wash to say he's no part of our predicament. If MC didn't want to work within the club's current recruitment set-up and financial restrictions, like it or not, the bottom line is he shouldn't have (re)signed the contract he did.
[Post edited 24 Nov 19:15]
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| Cifuentes gone? on 19:15 - Nov 24 with 1992 views | Burnleyhoop |
| Cifuentes gone? on 15:03 - Nov 24 by Northernr |
Zan Celar touched the ball 14 times yesterday. One of those was his penalty miss.
That is, by some distance, the lowest of any QPR player.
Would you like to hazard a guess at who was next lowest? |
All Celar’s touches were likely awful, Madsen can at least control and pass the ball.
Not much help if you can’t back it up with some pace, physicality and work ethic for a full 90 minutes though.
Morgan was also very sloppy when he came on, but all things considered, can’t expect him to be a world beater. Surely EDB should be given a run at that stage of the game? | | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:16 - Nov 24 with 1991 views | daveB |
| Cifuentes gone? on 15:33 - Nov 24 by baz_qpr |
Disagree
Made a number of incisive passes that opened them up especially first half. Tackled and won the ball, at least once, made a good professional foul for which he should have been carded. Pressed well. According to who scored highest pass success, of all starters, joint top key passes with 4 2nd half faded a bit. But Morgan was poor in the 10, we lost control for a while which was why Anderson was brought on |
I obviously missed something as didn't notice any of this |  | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:16 - Nov 24 with 1957 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Cifuentes gone? on 18:33 - Nov 24 by Padulas_Shampoo |
What’s your point though? He had always signed up to the recruitment model since the day he arrived here. He’s a coach.
You appear to be agreeing that the recruitment and work the CEO has done is appalling but still want to blame Marti because he agreed to live and die by it when agreeing to coach the team? Even if so… don’t you think the issue is the recruitment rather than the guy that had the audacity to agree to coach the team here? |
It's not so much what my point is as what your counter-point is, which I struggle to see. | |
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| Cifuentes gone? on 19:21 - Nov 24 with 1932 views | baz_qpr |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:06 - Nov 24 by FDC |
Some people seem to be making the argument that if you sign a contract as a coach with the knowledge that the club signs players with a model that involves the CEO/DOF, their analytics and recruitment team etc then you don't have a leg to stand on when it doesn't work out.
But the point isn't that the club has this recruitment model -- all clubs have this approach or similar these days. The point is that the specific signings that have been made this summer have largely turned out to be poor, and the argument beinf made is that this is a big contribution to poor results. Other clubs with the same approach to player recruitment have been far more successful. |
You can't build a team in one window. Add to that Chair, Colback, JCS, Paal all being out or unfit / carrying for a large part of the season. If that was last season regardless of Marti we would have gone down. Squad has been well short for a number of years now. | | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:21 - Nov 24 with 1929 views | Northernr |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:12 - Nov 24 by stainrods_elbow |
Fine - if some people don't want to (or can't bear to) take the point I've made clearly, and several times, out of a one-eyed need to uphold the party line, to amplify ad hominem idioms rather than engaging with the discussion raised, or blame Nourry for everything and pretend that Marti is some kind of innocent industrial victim/man of nobility at odds with circumstances, all I can say is there's none so deaf as those who won't listen.
As it is, as I see it, and taking the whole picture into consideration, what comes across is MC (i) feathering his nest, (ii) trying to keep the fans onside by telling us he's making recommendations to the club as to squad additions etc. and implying the club isn't delivering while (iii) telling us he's telling the players they're 'the best in the world'. The word 'compromised' doesn't begin to cover it, and reminds me of R D Laing's statement that the best of us are the defenceless ones who are driven mad by the insanity of the world, but welcome to professinal football. You probably need to have multiple personality disorder to be a football coach/manager (and apparently Director of Nothing) these days. If he's 'just a coach', unfortunately, the bottom line is he's not doing a very good job of it right now, and the club is justified in asking questions as to why that is. Are the players improving? Are there clear patterns of play? Can we take a set piece?
For the record, I like Marti, he still has real credit in the bank for me, and think Nourry is a seductive/opportunist toerag, so there's a degree of 'advocatus diaboli' in my argument, but only a degree. However, he's not pure as the driven snow, he's chosen to work at QPR, and it won't wash to say he's no part of our predicament. If MC didn't want to work within the club's current recruitment set-up and financial restrictions, like it or not, the bottom line is he shouldn't have (re)signed the contract he did.
[Post edited 24 Nov 19:15]
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I have listened, and I have engaged. I seem to do nothing but listen to you on here at the moment. I simply don’t agree with you. Nothing to do with party lines or ad hominem waffle or anything else, I just think you’re wrong.
And, again, there is no need to speak to me like that.
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:22 - Nov 24 with 1917 views | Padulas_Shampoo |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:16 - Nov 24 by stainrods_elbow |
It's not so much what my point is as what your counter-point is, which I struggle to see. |
Ok cool. Going to pop you on ignore now as I would get more out of trying to converse with a lamp post than letting you derail every thread with your incessant need to be contrary. Ta da. | | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:24 - Nov 24 with 1892 views | daveB |
| Cifuentes gone? on 16:44 - Nov 24 by lassel |
Putting my head above the parapet, I was told yesterday that he was gone, and messaged North saying as much. Around the same time the post match quotes came out with some transparent digs at those above him.
As it’s Sunday evening and it’s not on the offish my confidence levels go up slightly. I’m certainly hoping this is wrong as whilst I’ve not been a fan of some of Cifuentes’ decisions, I don’t think he is the issue here and with a squad this lopsided and lacking in goals it really wouldn’t matter who the manager is. |
It would be very much like the owners of this club to sack the manager after arguably our best performance in months.
My personal view is that the club will spend this week sorting out his replacement and Marti will be gone after the Watford game with new man in charge before we play Norwich | | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:25 - Nov 24 with 1855 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Cifuentes gone? on 18:51 - Nov 24 by Northernr |
An additional point I would repeat on this contract thing.
The contract was announced at the fan forum. Jake Clarke-Salter's contract was announced at the fan forum. Dembele making his move permanent "after passing the requisite number of appearances" (six at that stage).
Were all those deals done that Monday? That weekend? Is that Dembele thing even true?
The club have shown themselves untrustworthy under this CEO.
I first heard about Cifuentes getting a new contract at the end of June, when he was being half-heartedly linked with Burnley and quite heavily linked with Sunderland up there.
It is perfectly possible that deal was signed before the transfer window even really got going.
He was complaining about the recruitment as far back as Reading in pre-season. |
The point is we don't know (when he signed his contract), but I'm not even sure why this is relevant. He did sign it, and thereby agreed to work under the current regime.
In fact, Marti made a clear statment that he was almost entirely satisfied with our summer recruitment at the end of August, so I'm not sure where this idea that he's been seething with resentment since pre-season is now coming from:
https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/sport/im-very-stubborn-marti-cifuentes-provides-a
When asked if he was fully satisfied with QPR’s transfer business, Cifuentes replied:
“Almost. I’m very stubborn. I think we have got to a good point. I value that we have made a big shift. It is not easy with a big transition in where we are as a club, with a manager that came in the middle of last season, a CEO that came in the middle of last season. With lots of changes in the staff and the squad. Those things will take time. I’m convinced that we have signed some good players and now it is about being patient and being calm. My job is to make sure that the pieces start to work together as soon as possible.'
In his own words, he's now not doing his 'job', therefore (or not doing it very well), or he's not a very good judge of players, or he's a better tactician when it comes to adjusting his professional image than he appears to be on the pitch. Or possibly all three. | |
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| Cifuentes gone? on 19:27 - Nov 24 with 1825 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:22 - Nov 24 by Padulas_Shampoo |
Ok cool. Going to pop you on ignore now as I would get more out of trying to converse with a lamp post than letting you derail every thread with your incessant need to be contrary. Ta da. |
Good to get rid of people who don't like to discuss things, and prefer to scapegoat people who make arguments they don't like as 'contrarians' and other idiocies. What a relief! [Post edited 24 Nov 19:29]
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| Cifuentes gone? on 19:35 - Nov 24 with 1782 views | FDC |
Stainrods_pompous_persecution_complex | | | |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:39 - Nov 24 with 1761 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
| Cifuentes gone? on 19:12 - Nov 24 by stainrods_elbow |
Fine - if some people don't want to (or can't bear to) take the point I've made clearly, and several times, out of a one-eyed need to uphold the party line, to amplify ad hominem idioms rather than engaging with the discussion raised, or blame Nourry for everything and pretend that Marti is some kind of innocent industrial victim/man of nobility at odds with circumstances, all I can say is there's none so deaf as those who won't listen.
As it is, as I see it, and taking the whole picture into consideration, what comes across is MC (i) feathering his nest, (ii) trying to keep the fans onside by telling us he's making recommendations to the club as to squad additions etc. and implying the club isn't delivering while (iii) telling us he's telling the players they're 'the best in the world'. The word 'compromised' doesn't begin to cover it, and reminds me of R D Laing's statement that the best of us are the defenceless ones who are driven mad by the insanity of the world, but welcome to professinal football. You probably need to have multiple personality disorder to be a football coach/manager (and apparently Director of Nothing) these days. If he's 'just a coach', unfortunately, the bottom line is he's not doing a very good job of it right now, and the club is justified in asking questions as to why that is. Are the players improving? Are there clear patterns of play? Can we take a set piece?
For the record, I like Marti, he still has real credit in the bank for me, and think Nourry is a seductive/opportunist toerag, so there's a degree of 'advocatus diaboli' in my argument, but only a degree. However, he's not pure as the driven snow, he's chosen to work at QPR, and it won't wash to say he's no part of our predicament. If MC didn't want to work within the club's current recruitment set-up and financial restrictions, like it or not, the bottom line is he shouldn't have (re)signed the contract he did.
[Post edited 24 Nov 19:15]
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Jeepers, I need a thesaurus when I read your posts. Do you sht Scrabble tiles? | | | |
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