| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? 00:15 - Jan 18 with 8930 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Discuss.
For me, it’s a yes.
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 09:21 - Jan 19 with 1130 views | Boundy |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 08:57 - Jan 19 by Sirjohnalot |
Decathlon, Tour de France, Ironmen races. All incredible disciplines. I've done a couple of sprint tri's very tricky to get right |
I've completed the long version of the Gower Bike ride a few times with decent times ( I can feel your admiration from here ) ,but then compare that to the Tour De France and you just can't, ever, to try to comprehend the effort stamina determination just to complete one days cycling is mind boggling , with average speeds on the flat of between 25-28 mph unreal.Therefore I nominate Chris Hoe as my second choice  |  |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 09:29 - Jan 19 with 1111 views | Scotia |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 18:39 - Jan 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
Let’s be honest, if Perry was around today in his prime, he wouldn’t be top 100.
Murray would destroy him in every possible way. He played in trousers and wooden racquets where serve and volley was the order of the day.
Same goes for Margaret Court, I can’t stand Serena but Serena would destroy her when both in their prime. Wouldn’t even be close. |
I agree.
I think any player in the current top 300 would beat any top player from the time Fred Perry was playing. They can't be compared. That can be seen across all sports.
Fred Perry grew up in the inter - war periods of the great depression, I don't think they were a poor family but just compare that scenario to a current professional.
Current professionals have access to all modern technology and analysis available. They have dieticians, nutritionists, gait analysis, swing analysis, private chefs, individually made equipment, individually made clothing, full biological performance analysis, conditioning coaches, strength coaches, specific sports coaches etc , etc. It's why records keep getting broken.
Just look at the musculature in Rafa Nadal's left arm and compare that to Fred Perry's.
We'll never know what Fred Perry could have achieved with the level of support that Andy murray has had.
The only way to compare sportsmen from a differnt era is through achievment, and for that reason Andy Murray doesn't cut it. He'd be in my personal top 5 I think. | | | |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 13:19 - Jan 19 with 1078 views | britferry |
ok, lets spin the argument around, how good would these modern players have been in the 1930s ?
Playing as amateurs, no private jets, having to catch numerous planes to get from the UK to Australia on old planes, no support team, no dieticians, no modern medicines or recovery procedures or operations, the old equipment and playing surfaces, poor training facilities, no TV coverage, no sponsorships.
I doubt very much Andy Murray would have recovered from a hip injury back then. He's a great sportsman but he's not our greatest. | |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 13:37 - Jan 19 with 1059 views | CountyJim |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 13:19 - Jan 19 by britferry |
ok, lets spin the argument around, how good would these modern players have been in the 1930s ?
Playing as amateurs, no private jets, having to catch numerous planes to get from the UK to Australia on old planes, no support team, no dieticians, no modern medicines or recovery procedures or operations, the old equipment and playing surfaces, poor training facilities, no TV coverage, no sponsorships.
I doubt very much Andy Murray would have recovered from a hip injury back then. He's a great sportsman but he's not our greatest. |
That's a great post
That's why Denis Compton is the best multi sports at the highest level |  | | |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 15:10 - Jan 19 with 1029 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 13:19 - Jan 19 by britferry |
ok, lets spin the argument around, how good would these modern players have been in the 1930s ?
Playing as amateurs, no private jets, having to catch numerous planes to get from the UK to Australia on old planes, no support team, no dieticians, no modern medicines or recovery procedures or operations, the old equipment and playing surfaces, poor training facilities, no TV coverage, no sponsorships.
I doubt very much Andy Murray would have recovered from a hip injury back then. He's a great sportsman but he's not our greatest. |
Yes and Without the likes of Fred Perry and the early pioneers popularising the sport tennis would be little more than a small time fringe sport with very little interest or prize money and the likes of Murray and Federer would be relative unknowns. |  |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 16:28 - Jan 19 with 1003 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 15:10 - Jan 19 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Yes and Without the likes of Fred Perry and the early pioneers popularising the sport tennis would be little more than a small time fringe sport with very little interest or prize money and the likes of Murray and Federer would be relative unknowns. |
That would come under the argument of “most important British sportsman of all time”.
We are talking greatness, pure ability relative to peers. | |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 16:33 - Jan 19 with 1001 views | SullutaCreturned |
I'm not sure how anyone with any sense could rule Perry out in a modern context. Who can know what Perry or any other sports person would achieve with modern facilities, modern equipment and modern medicine.
I'm also not sure why tennis is a different skill set these days to back then, you have a tennis court, a tennis racket and a tennis ball, you serve or you return over the net...what has changed so much that its not the same skill set? | | | |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 16:44 - Jan 19 with 993 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 16:33 - Jan 19 by SullutaCreturned |
I'm not sure how anyone with any sense could rule Perry out in a modern context. Who can know what Perry or any other sports person would achieve with modern facilities, modern equipment and modern medicine.
I'm also not sure why tennis is a different skill set these days to back then, you have a tennis court, a tennis racket and a tennis ball, you serve or you return over the net...what has changed so much that its not the same skill set? |
Because it’s chalk and cheese, not even comparable in terms of ability.
Fred Perry’s first serve was probably slower than many players second serve. Back then it was a serve and volley game, that has been ousted by natural selection as power has beaten it in every aspect.
Those who had Fred Perrys skillset have been forced out of the game because they simply cannot compete and that’s modern day players. Fred Perry was playing when there was almost no innovation or training methods in the game.
We aren’t talking about Fred Perry growing up in this era and having the benefits of that - that’s a different discussion altogether which will have no answer. We are talking about taking his prime as it was, and pitting it against Andy Murray’s prime as it was in this era.
Wouldn’t even be a contest. If he managed to take 5 games off Andy over the course of 3 sets I would be stunned. | |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:04 - Jan 19 with 966 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 16:28 - Jan 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
That would come under the argument of “most important British sportsman of all time”.
We are talking greatness, pure ability relative to peers. |
It’s not just ability though. I think most people would consider Jesse Owens one of the worlds greatest sportsmen because of what he achieved and where he achieved it and the struggles he had to get there. To dismiss that because he posted slower times than for example Linford Christie fifty odd years later would be folly. Owens will be remembered forever whereas Christie won’t despite the fact Owens would probably struggle to even qualify for a lot of modern events with the times he was posting. | |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:05 - Jan 19 with 965 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:04 - Jan 19 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
It’s not just ability though. I think most people would consider Jesse Owens one of the worlds greatest sportsmen because of what he achieved and where he achieved it and the struggles he had to get there. To dismiss that because he posted slower times than for example Linford Christie fifty odd years later would be folly. Owens will be remembered forever whereas Christie won’t despite the fact Owens would probably struggle to even qualify for a lot of modern events with the times he was posting. |
Then for me he wouldn’t be the greatest. | |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:05 - Jan 19 with 965 views | Dr_Parnassus |
WOW.
Possibly the greatest match I’ve seen in a long time, potentially ever.
Metal hip.
2 sets and 5-2 down, opponent serving for the match.
Almost 6 hours on court…. Comes back to beat yet another top 20 opponent.
Take a bow. Andy Murray. | |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:07 - Jan 19 with 962 views | CountyJim |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:05 - Jan 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
WOW.
Possibly the greatest match I’ve seen in a long time, potentially ever.
Metal hip.
2 sets and 5-2 down, opponent serving for the match.
Almost 6 hours on court…. Comes back to beat yet another top 20 opponent.
Take a bow. Andy Murray. |
He is super human fair play | | | |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:08 - Jan 19 with 960 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:07 - Jan 19 by CountyJim |
He is super human fair play |
Never seen anything like it in my life. | |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:09 - Jan 19 with 957 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:05 - Jan 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Then for me he wouldn’t be the greatest. |
So the greatest sportsman of all time in essence has to be a modern sportsman at his peak now? | |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:11 - Jan 19 with 953 views | CountyJim |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:08 - Jan 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Never seen anything like it in my life. |
He's been on court that long let him go and have a shower FFS and a rest he's now expected to do interviews 😢 | | | |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:14 - Jan 19 with 949 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:09 - Jan 19 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
So the greatest sportsman of all time in essence has to be a modern sportsman at his peak now? |
No, Mohammed Ali transcends his time as there are very real debates who would win out of him and modern greats of today. Maradona is another.
There are plenty in past eras that have the required greatness where they can compare and realistically compete against peers of all eras. | |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:23 - Jan 19 with 935 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 16:44 - Jan 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Because it’s chalk and cheese, not even comparable in terms of ability.
Fred Perry’s first serve was probably slower than many players second serve. Back then it was a serve and volley game, that has been ousted by natural selection as power has beaten it in every aspect.
Those who had Fred Perrys skillset have been forced out of the game because they simply cannot compete and that’s modern day players. Fred Perry was playing when there was almost no innovation or training methods in the game.
We aren’t talking about Fred Perry growing up in this era and having the benefits of that - that’s a different discussion altogether which will have no answer. We are talking about taking his prime as it was, and pitting it against Andy Murray’s prime as it was in this era.
Wouldn’t even be a contest. If he managed to take 5 games off Andy over the course of 3 sets I would be stunned. |
Well then, you said, "We are talking greatness, pure ability relative to peers."
In which case, relative to his peers Perry has to be up there but Murray, realtive to his peers isn't really that great.
if we are talking tournament grand slam wins then he's nowhere near his peers,
https://www.landoftennis.com/statistics_men/grand_slam_most_titles.htm
Saying that you rule out people who played in the past is nonsense because you can only play in the time you are here and you can only play those around you, Murray couldn't play Perry. Other British sportsmen have much better records in other sports, like Cazaghe or Compton, Bale or Redgrave. | | | |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:26 - Jan 19 with 933 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:23 - Jan 19 by SullutaCreturned |
Well then, you said, "We are talking greatness, pure ability relative to peers."
In which case, relative to his peers Perry has to be up there but Murray, realtive to his peers isn't really that great.
if we are talking tournament grand slam wins then he's nowhere near his peers,
https://www.landoftennis.com/statistics_men/grand_slam_most_titles.htm
Saying that you rule out people who played in the past is nonsense because you can only play in the time you are here and you can only play those around you, Murray couldn't play Perry. Other British sportsmen have much better records in other sports, like Cazaghe or Compton, Bale or Redgrave. |
No, peers means people who have the same status as you.
So for that we would have Perry in the “British male number 1’s” peer group maybe. He would get destroyed, to embarrassing levels by the one I’m discussing. Murray.
I have not ruled out anyone “because” played in past eras, I ruled out Fred Perry who happened to play in a past era.
Subtle, but gargantuan difference.
I just explained Maradona and Ali would be past era greats that still hold up in the conversation today with their peers.
Perry doesn’t. [Post edited 19 Jan 2023 17:34]
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:54 - Jan 19 with 920 views | Scotia |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 17:26 - Jan 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
No, peers means people who have the same status as you.
So for that we would have Perry in the “British male number 1’s” peer group maybe. He would get destroyed, to embarrassing levels by the one I’m discussing. Murray.
I have not ruled out anyone “because” played in past eras, I ruled out Fred Perry who happened to play in a past era.
Subtle, but gargantuan difference.
I just explained Maradona and Ali would be past era greats that still hold up in the conversation today with their peers.
Perry doesn’t. [Post edited 19 Jan 2023 17:34]
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But any member of the 70's grand slam winning rugby team would be equally destroyed by the 2022 team who lost to Italy.
It's not comparable. Murray is a great, but not great enough. | | | |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 18:22 - Jan 19 with 905 views | shingle |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 19:28 - Jan 18 by Sirjohnalot |
That’s what so difficult to compare people from a the periods, it could be said that if you have the skill you’d succeed in any era. |
Not really he could not improve that back hand despite how he tried and it was so poor he would not even be in the top 100 in this era no way would he have been able to compete with today's elite with a weakness like that. | | | |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 18:30 - Jan 19 with 889 views | shingle |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 19:48 - Jan 18 by Kilkennyjack |
Nobody said he had a world record.
Have a ponder on this from wiki …. Allan Wipper Wells MBE (born 3 May 1952) is a Scottish former track and field sprinter who became the 100 metres Olympic champion at the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow.[1] Within a fortnight of that, he also took on and beat America's best sprinters at an invitational meeting in Koblenz. In 1981, Wells was both the IAAF Golden Sprints and IAAF World Cup gold medallist. He is also a three-time European Cup gold medallist among many other sprint successes.
Olympic 100 metre sprint champion alone is amazing.
Fergie. Nobody said he was an international apart from you.
You even got that wrapped around you.
‘Ferguson's only involvement with the Scotland national team was during an overseas tour in 1967. For many years none of the tour matches were recognised by the Scottish Football Association as full internationals, and so Ferguson was deemed to have never played for Scotland. A BBC Sport article in June 2020 identified him as one of the best Scottish players to have never played a full international.[22] The SFA announced in October 2021 that some of the tour matches would be reclassified as full internationals, which meant that Ferguson was belatedly awarded an international cap.[3]’.
Please try harder. |
No need to try harder you rate a guy who never held a world record and won a gold medal without facing the worlds best because they were boycotting the event as the worlds best ever British sportsman followed by Fergie who was not even good enough to play for his country in other words you should maybe refrain from debating sport because you have no idea what you are going on about. | | | |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 18:32 - Jan 19 with 886 views | britferry |
He just won a 2nd round match, nearly 6 hours on court and it finished at 4.05am Oz time... who is watching that in Oz at that time on a Friday morning?
good effort though 
obviously, Fred would have won in straight sets  | |
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| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 18:49 - Jan 19 with 873 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 18:32 - Jan 19 by britferry |
He just won a 2nd round match, nearly 6 hours on court and it finished at 4.05am Oz time... who is watching that in Oz at that time on a Friday morning?
good effort though
obviously, Fred would have won in straight sets |
All the people in the stadium! | | | |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 18:51 - Jan 19 with 872 views | Togg |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 16:33 - Jan 19 by SullutaCreturned |
I'm not sure how anyone with any sense could rule Perry out in a modern context. Who can know what Perry or any other sports person would achieve with modern facilities, modern equipment and modern medicine.
I'm also not sure why tennis is a different skill set these days to back then, you have a tennis court, a tennis racket and a tennis ball, you serve or you return over the net...what has changed so much that its not the same skill set? |
Stroke play is different. Look at how players hit a ball now compared to Perry's era. The shots then were extremely flat. Now the top spin generated is massive. Compare Nadal to even back to Jimmy Connors forehand. Same with the backhand. The backhand was mainly a defensive shot , now its a weapon. Whether one handed like Warwinka or Federer or two handed like Nadal or Murray. The game has moved on with racquet technology . . | | | |
| Andy Murray, greatest British sportsman of all time? on 19:00 - Jan 19 with 861 views | Scotia |
I've got to say this is an interesting thread, it's got me thinking about the greatest British sports person.
Didn't think of Calzaghe and I didn't realise Daley Thomson was unbeaten in 9 years.
I also haven't seen Lewis Hamilton or Tamii Gray Thomson mentioned.
We've done pretty well for a couple of small islands. | | | |
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