By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
As per usual a lucid and respectful post Brian and also as per usual one that in principal I agree with.
Another question. Would you respect a minutes silence if you were at a football game over the Remembrance weekend bearing in mind is stands for exactly the same principles as a poppy.
Good question. Yes, I would. I have thought about it a lot to see if that would be inconsistent, but I would. I think the minute's silence is not tied to the red poppy or the white poppy or anything else. It's purely to remember people who have passed away. I would prefer that it was also for blitz victims, drone victims and all who died in war no matter how they died, but that doesn't seem to be on the agenda.
Also, what alternatives are there, really? Make noise? Arrive late? Turn my back on it? All unthinkable in my eyes. So I would respect it, definitely, and if there's an inconsistency to that, then it's better that way than to something disrespectful.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
I'll have a go at answering that honestly, as long as everyone takes me at my word that I'm genuinely respectful of those who lost their lives.
I like the idea of honouring the war dead, and would wear a red poppy if I felt confident that it educated kids about the utter futility of war, if the day was a day about pacifism and education about the real reasons that young, often working-class, men and women are hauled from their loved ones and forced to die and to kill.
Instead what I fear we have occasionally is the message that soldiers are 'heroes' whose deaths have always been 'to protect freedom'. I think that argument could have been made after the two World Wars, when men and women were drafted to their deaths when the world was in real peril, but not of late when they are sent to die in illegal wars that seem to me to be more to do with redistribution of wealth from one elite to another.
I also think the 'heroes' refrain is dangerous, I think it lets off the hook war criminals in government who murder their own and others for political and economical gain, and I think there's a real danger with the way it's packaged now that more young boys and girls will enlist and die. I don't believe that soldiers are heroes but rather to be pitied as their health and very lives are taken from them before they've even begun. Continually calling them heroes as if it's an unassailable truth carries with it a danger that more will follow with heroic dreams in their heads.
That's my honest opinion, it's genuinely not meant to be disrespectful to those who went through horror that I can't possibly imagine, but it's born out of a fear that the story of their lives and deaths is being twisted to take the attention away from those that sent them to their deaths and will lead to more following them, and so the cycle of war, death and suffering can continue whenever the war criminals pick another oil-rich country to invade.
I'm aware that this is a day for Remembrance, so I hope I've been respectful in my reply to you, John.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2013 18:16]
Brian I still cannot agree with you but respect your views
I'll have a go at answering that honestly, as long as everyone takes me at my word that I'm genuinely respectful of those who lost their lives.
I like the idea of honouring the war dead, and would wear a red poppy if I felt confident that it educated kids about the utter futility of war, if the day was a day about pacifism and education about the real reasons that young, often working-class, men and women are hauled from their loved ones and forced to die and to kill.
Instead what I fear we have occasionally is the message that soldiers are 'heroes' whose deaths have always been 'to protect freedom'. I think that argument could have been made after the two World Wars, when men and women were drafted to their deaths when the world was in real peril, but not of late when they are sent to die in illegal wars that seem to me to be more to do with redistribution of wealth from one elite to another.
I also think the 'heroes' refrain is dangerous, I think it lets off the hook war criminals in government who murder their own and others for political and economical gain, and I think there's a real danger with the way it's packaged now that more young boys and girls will enlist and die. I don't believe that soldiers are heroes but rather to be pitied as their health and very lives are taken from them before they've even begun. Continually calling them heroes as if it's an unassailable truth carries with it a danger that more will follow with heroic dreams in their heads.
That's my honest opinion, it's genuinely not meant to be disrespectful to those who went through horror that I can't possibly imagine, but it's born out of a fear that the story of their lives and deaths is being twisted to take the attention away from those that sent them to their deaths and will lead to more following them, and so the cycle of war, death and suffering can continue whenever the war criminals pick another oil-rich country to invade.
I'm aware that this is a day for Remembrance, so I hope I've been respectful in my reply to you, John.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2013 18:16]
Fantastic articulation Brian.
The fact is that the poppy has completely been commandeered by propangandists who are hell-bent on rendering anyone who does not conform as "unpatriotic" The original sentiment was honouring those that died in "the great wars" which is one thing and now that translates as those who serve their country. It's as ridiculous now as it was then, meaning that everyone should conform and anyone who doesn't receives condemnation.
War is ugly and horrendous and despite my own grandfather fighting in the second world war I salute MacLean's stance. Someone pointed out last year this same point and there was a similar thread.
I salute him, especially as footballers are viewed as self-loving, simpletons, this is a guy who depite what you think of his allegiances is seeing through his view belief and sticking to it. It's a complicated situation but one which Brooklyn has articulated superbly.
I for one think that wearing a poppy for the sake of wearing a poppy is more offensive than and the fact that there are the likes of "Help for Heroes" which for me have completely politicised the whole arena, means that why should someone feel guilty for not wearing a poppy.
Those that died in any war should be remembered however who can criticise MacLean for not wishing to honour those that he sees as murdering his breathren in Derry.
But I get embarrassed by the furore when people don't wear poppies (or, according to the Mail, don't wear them soon enough). The very symbolism of the poppy is diminished when it just becomes something you have to do, whether or not you know what it represents, or want to show your recognition of the death of all those young men over the years (let's not get into the idea of "their sacrifice" — in WWI, they had their lives sacrificed for them). When I see a Premier League club with the poppy printed on the shirt, I think how ridiculous it is: why should 11 players, most of whom come from abroad, be forced into a display they have nothing to do with? What's it doing on a football kit, anyway? If they wear poppies with their normal clothes, great, I am glad for them and pleased they did. But the reflex thing of YOU MUST WEAR A POPPY, which is really only a decade old, is no tribute to the soldiers. It's rightwing political correctness gone mad.
I apologise in advance to those this will offend, but it's what I believe. And, as I say, I wear a poppy every year.
Agree. The idea that before every news program/ talk show etc somebody has the job of ensuring all are wearing their poppies correctly makes me cringe
Agree. The idea that before every news program/ talk show etc somebody has the job of ensuring all are wearing their poppies correctly makes me cringe
so we stop wearing them john ????? have some respect, the blokes who lost their lives in 1st world war & second war deserve at least one year out of the calendar to remember them !!! McLean is IRA and has come out with such , now if he feels that strong than feck off to the Irish league or play for celtic both my granddads fought in the war and their dads before them so divs like you & mclean get a future
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
As per usual a lucid and respectful post Brian and also as per usual one that in principal I agree with.
Another question. Would you respect a minutes silence if you were at a football game over the Remembrance weekend bearing in mind is stands for exactly the same principles as a poppy.
I think the wearing of poppies maybe have become quite generational, I was born just a decade after WW2 finished and there were still plenty of families that were suffering because of the losses caused, plenty of bomb sites as well to act as a reminder of the losses amongst the civilian population.
So for me it is deeply ingrained of the sacrifices made by so many, it is a real blessing that because of previous generations I have never had to kill or suffer the pain of losing loved ones on behalf of my country.
My children have been educated to the facts of why there is a Rememberance Day as much by myself as the history lessons of their schooling, and I have tried to not glorify the wars and conflicts of my lifetime and those of their era, this is where we as the general population can avoid the Media and those whose vested interests whether political or financial cloud the real reasons for this very special day.
I would urge even those whose views may be regarded as pacifist to do the same, and as an aside I regard myself as having those leanings where ever is humanly possible, I fully respect those who do not want to wear the red poppy because of the overtones of 'hero worship' whenever our Armed Forces are in the public domain, we can stop this hijacking of a day where all should be able to proclaim a mark of respect to the many who have made the ultimate sacrifice whether in direct armed conflict or as the many many innocents that suffer greatly whenever there is a war.
I would never want anyone be forced to wear a poppy but better education and the day be turned into one of more peaceful resolutions as well as a chance for those who wish to show respect to all who have fallen, whether Armed Forces or civilian.
Apologies, it was meant as a rebuke of believing rumours on twitter.
No worries, I had a look and couldn't find anything. The Google search had lots of entries about him deleting his account because of death threats in the past, but sure enough, he's on again chatting to one of Boyzone about how great Celine Dion is. Nothing today. Strange world.
I think the wearing of poppies maybe have become quite generational, I was born just a decade after WW2 finished and there were still plenty of families that were suffering because of the losses caused, plenty of bomb sites as well to act as a reminder of the losses amongst the civilian population.
So for me it is deeply ingrained of the sacrifices made by so many, it is a real blessing that because of previous generations I have never had to kill or suffer the pain of losing loved ones on behalf of my country.
My children have been educated to the facts of why there is a Rememberance Day as much by myself as the history lessons of their schooling, and I have tried to not glorify the wars and conflicts of my lifetime and those of their era, this is where we as the general population can avoid the Media and those whose vested interests whether political or financial cloud the real reasons for this very special day.
I would urge even those whose views may be regarded as pacifist to do the same, and as an aside I regard myself as having those leanings where ever is humanly possible, I fully respect those who do not want to wear the red poppy because of the overtones of 'hero worship' whenever our Armed Forces are in the public domain, we can stop this hijacking of a day where all should be able to proclaim a mark of respect to the many who have made the ultimate sacrifice whether in direct armed conflict or as the many many innocents that suffer greatly whenever there is a war.
I would never want anyone be forced to wear a poppy but better education and the day be turned into one of more peaceful resolutions as well as a chance for those who wish to show respect to all who have fallen, whether Armed Forces or civilian.
Great post, wood.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
so we stop wearing them john ????? have some respect, the blokes who lost their lives in 1st world war & second war deserve at least one year out of the calendar to remember them !!! McLean is IRA and has come out with such , now if he feels that strong than feck off to the Irish league or play for celtic both my granddads fought in the war and their dads before them so divs like you & mclean get a future
Here it is.. more lunacy.
Not wishing to be disrespectful to your "both your grandads and theirs before them" however MacLean is coming out and calling them 'wnkers' nor is he disrespecting their right to recognition. However this politicisation of this date is pathetic beyond anything.
Firstly the 1st world war was not a reaction to anything which threatened any other subject than Imperialist control....my great grandtfather literally fought for this war and thousands died so that we could retain good ol' British rule in territories hundreds of miles away. The second workd war war was of the exact same principle however fundamental prejudice and greed was extolled as the reasons for.
Don't come out with the context of "anyone who dissends is disgracing my grandfather's" rhetoric as it's complete nonscence... and furthermore is completely disrespectful....
Look at it from the other side....my grandfather fought in the second worlkd war only to be beaten and killed by the British army...... Whether or not MacLean was privy to this is irrelavent, but his community still has that feeling and why he feels that way.
I think your IRA Post is libelous and I think youn should take this down...
This shows the lack of discipline in the game today. For example, when the FA told the England team to salute Hitler in Berlin in 1938, to a man they all did so. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3128202.stm
Bet John Terry wished he played for England back then!!
Cant see why people wont wear the poppy, its got nothing to do with the troubles in Ireland, i was educated that it that when Hague visited the battle grounds after the end of the great war the fields were covered in poppys, Hague commented that there seemed to be one for every man that had died, the rest is history. There were lots of different nationalities that perished under stupid orders from pen pushers including many Irish and muslims. As time has gone on virtually all that survived are now dead and without this one yes one day a year ceremony their gallant and brave efforts would be as significant to todays youngsters as the Roman invasion is, another ten years or so and the second world war will be going the same way, my Dad was 6 when the war started and 12 when it finished, he spent the entire war seperated from his parents as he was evacuated, my Nan stayed at home braving the bombs whilst grandad did his bit for the war, his stories he tell still enthrall me today, and i make sure my kids now what he and millions of others went through. It disgusts me that the symbol of the poppy has been hijacked by people on both sides of the argument to use as a political tool.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2013 20:10]
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
I'll have a go at answering that honestly, as long as everyone takes me at my word that I'm genuinely respectful of those who lost their lives.
I like the idea of honouring the war dead, and would wear a red poppy if I felt confident that it educated kids about the utter futility of war, if the day was a day about pacifism and education about the real reasons that young, often working-class, men and women are hauled from their loved ones and forced to die and to kill.
Instead what I fear we have occasionally is the message that soldiers are 'heroes' whose deaths have always been 'to protect freedom'. I think that argument could have been made after the two World Wars, when men and women were drafted to their deaths when the world was in real peril, but not of late when they are sent to die in illegal wars that seem to me to be more to do with redistribution of wealth from one elite to another.
I also think the 'heroes' refrain is dangerous, I think it lets off the hook war criminals in government who murder their own and others for political and economical gain, and I think there's a real danger with the way it's packaged now that more young boys and girls will enlist and die. I don't believe that soldiers are heroes but rather to be pitied as their health and very lives are taken from them before they've even begun. Continually calling them heroes as if it's an unassailable truth carries with it a danger that more will follow with heroic dreams in their heads.
That's my honest opinion, it's genuinely not meant to be disrespectful to those who went through horror that I can't possibly imagine, but it's born out of a fear that the story of their lives and deaths is being twisted to take the attention away from those that sent them to their deaths and will lead to more following them, and so the cycle of war, death and suffering can continue whenever the war criminals pick another oil-rich country to invade.
I'm aware that this is a day for Remembrance, so I hope I've been respectful in my reply to you, John.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2013 18:16]
I think if McLean's got a problem with the british army in Ireland, maybe he should try and relate to how soldiers families who were murdered in Ireland now see IRA leaders legitimised and are in parliament. The bit in your piece about war criminals got me thinking about this aspect.
they have made a right mess of this if the guy didnt want to /rufuse to wear the poppy then he should have gone to manager and explained why then they could have covered it up with a 1 game injury,instead he's going to be hated now and if he is pro ira then i too will be booing him like crazy
I Ran Away
on a personal level
funny thing is my mothers irish west cork and i go every year to stay see all my cousins and the old home farm,but mums father pats (long dead) was a battalion officer in the dam ira and micheal collins was only from down the road in bandon place is full of graves and memorials to them ( i always give them a crafty bit of english flem when i pass one)
they were forever having ambushes and raids against the police and british army and one night the black and tans turned up at the farm looking for pats ,the black and tans were the hardest troops and to be honest could be evil and one of them picked up my mum a 6 month old baby the family feared the worst but he just sat her on his knee and sang to her as he had one back home in scotland and was missing her
my oldest remaining uncle was another of them a right shite of a man a gangster and black sheep of the family none of the family keep in contact with him
so we stop wearing them john ????? have some respect, the blokes who lost their lives in 1st world war & second war deserve at least one year out of the calendar to remember them !!! McLean is IRA and has come out with such , now if he feels that strong than feck off to the Irish league or play for celtic both my granddads fought in the war and their dads before them so divs like you & mclean get a future
I am sorry that you have misunderstood this post and others I have made on this thread. I wear the poppy and I hope all would wear one. However to wear a poppy for effect, which I cannot help but believe some in the media do just to say look at me, does not show respect for anyone. I don't always wear the coat that has the poppy on it so I cannot believe people always remember to wear it before appearing before the cameras but miraculously they appear so to do.
Just read the end of your post, before insulting people at least try to get your facts right.
they have made a right mess of this if the guy didnt want to /rufuse to wear the poppy then he should have gone to manager and explained why then they could have covered it up with a 1 game injury,instead he's going to be hated now and if he is pro ira then i too will be booing him like crazy
I Ran Away
on a personal level
funny thing is my mothers irish west cork and i go every year to stay see all my cousins and the old home farm,but mums father pats (long dead) was a battalion officer in the dam ira and micheal collins was only from down the road in bandon place is full of graves and memorials to them ( i always give them a crafty bit of english flem when i pass one)
they were forever having ambushes and raids against the police and british army and one night the black and tans turned up at the farm looking for pats ,the black and tans were the hardest troops and to be honest could be evil and one of them picked up my mum a 6 month old baby the family feared the worst but he just sat her on his knee and sang to her as he had one back home in scotland and was missing her
my oldest remaining uncle was another of them a right shite of a man a gangster and black sheep of the family none of the family keep in contact with him
I thought the only IRA grave with a memorial was in the graveyard at Ballina, County Mayo? Which I have visited.
My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic.
I wear a poppy every year and think our chaps, past and present, are the best in the world. Nevertheless, he should be allowed to decline wearing one if he wishes. That is what the very people being remembered today, were all about. Fredom of Speech and Expression need to be brought back to this country with a vengence......even though he might be a t**t
They were different times, and different people. I had relatives who fought in the War of Independence, I had other relatives who were pacifists and who under duress and in great danger stood by their beliefs and refused to take up arms. I'm old enough to have known some of them before they passed away, and they told me some of what they endured, and what they inflicted. It was astounding. After the War of Independence many of these people fought each other in the Civil War. They were times of unimaginable horror fought out by British and Irish, but out of those wars came respect and reconciliation, and an astonishing capacity to live and work together as we do now both in Ireland and in Britain, so much so that there is currently a move to turn that very monument in Kilmichael into a salute to the dead on both sides, and have the names of the fallen British soldiers put beside the Irish names forever.
And your sole contribution is to urinate on monuments. What sadness would produce such an act. What terrible lovelessness. What a pity.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
so we stop wearing them john ????? have some respect, the blokes who lost their lives in 1st world war & second war deserve at least one year out of the calendar to remember them !!! McLean is IRA and has come out with such , now if he feels that strong than feck off to the Irish league or play for celtic both my granddads fought in the war and their dads before them so divs like you & mclean get a future
My Granddad was a war hero. The book/film A Bridge Too Far? He was in the thick of it at Arnhem. Went through f***ing hell to the extent where he never, ever talked about it. And he had a million brilliant war stories - he was not a shy man. Never wore a poppy, though. Had his reasons, which were personal and down to personal experience with the British Legion, which I don't need to go into here. But he had his reasons. McLean, if indeed he did refuse to wear it, may have valid reasons too. Frankly, that's none of our business.
I think this whole poppy on the shirt thing is a little odd, I have to say. Fine if, as a player, you are happy to do it, or want to do it, but for me the sentiment is somewhat diluted, even eradicated, if everyone is forced to wear it whether they want to or not, whether they care or not, whether they've even heard of the British Legion or not. If that's the case, what does it actually *mean* if you're compelled to do it?
They were different times, and different people. I had relatives who fought in the War of Independence, I had other relatives who were pacifists and who under duress and in great danger stood by their beliefs and refused to take up arms. I'm old enough to have known some of them before they passed away, and they told me some of what they endured, and what they inflicted. It was astounding. After the War of Independence many of these people fought each other in the Civil War. They were times of unimaginable horror fought out by British and Irish, but out of those wars came respect and reconciliation, and an astonishing capacity to live and work together as we do now both in Ireland and in Britain, so much so that there is currently a move to turn that very monument in Kilmichael into a salute to the dead on both sides, and have the names of the fallen British soldiers put beside the Irish names forever.
And your sole contribution is to urinate on monuments. What sadness would produce such an act. What terrible lovelessness. What a pity.
your out of date funny how they can find the funds to do it all up while cutting services there
Today marks the 92nd anniversary of the Kilmichael ambush, this day 92 years ago, Just one week after Bloody Sunday the IRA column consisting of 36 men, who were brought together through love for our beautiful island, under the command of Tom Barry killed seventeen members of the RIC Auxiliary division (Black and Tans) in a well planned ambush at Kilmichael, Co. Cork. Sadly Three brave IRA men were killed at the site.
dont get me from if your irish then i guess they would have been your freedom fighters and im half irish but being born in england im english they were terrorists
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
