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"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier."
"Soldier worship blinds Britain to the grim reality of war" on 12:31 - Nov 9 by NW5Hoop
The Geneva Convention is not some woolly minded liberal conspiracy to hamper our brave boys. It's a necessary set of rules to try to ensure that war, a bloody and desolate thing at the best of times, can at least be conducted with some knowledge that soldiers are not encouraged to turn into monsters.
Executing prisoners is a monstrous act. It should not be shrugged off. If we fight, as we like to claim, for justice, we cannot condone murder outside combat.
"The Geneva Convention is not some woolly minded liberal conspiracy to hamper our brave boys. It's a necessary set of rules to try to ensure that war, a bloody and desolate thing at the best of times, can at least be conducted with some knowledge that soldiers are not encouraged to turn into monsters".
Spot on. And our forces have an excellent record of respecting it, which should not be obscured by this case. We should not go off the deep end about this - it happened in, e.g. WW2 Normandy and no-one thinks the Allies in that were either unjustified in going to war or full of war criminals. The guy should do his time, his sentence should reflect his own personal stresses, the situation he was in, and his previous good record, and when he comes out he should be allowed to rehabilitate.
But nor should we ignore or condone it. Just read Max Hastings book on WW1 - makes it clear that in August 1914 the Germans and Austro-Hungarians were already involved in atrocities against civilians in way that neither the French nor British were. 20 years later you have mass murder as a normal part of German army's warfare. You have to stop these things at the start.
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"Soldier worship blinds Britain to the grim reality of war" on 20:55 - Nov 9 with 1068 views
"Soldier worship blinds Britain to the grim reality of war" on 19:44 - Nov 9 by CiderwithRsie
"The Geneva Convention is not some woolly minded liberal conspiracy to hamper our brave boys. It's a necessary set of rules to try to ensure that war, a bloody and desolate thing at the best of times, can at least be conducted with some knowledge that soldiers are not encouraged to turn into monsters".
Spot on. And our forces have an excellent record of respecting it, which should not be obscured by this case. We should not go off the deep end about this - it happened in, e.g. WW2 Normandy and no-one thinks the Allies in that were either unjustified in going to war or full of war criminals. The guy should do his time, his sentence should reflect his own personal stresses, the situation he was in, and his previous good record, and when he comes out he should be allowed to rehabilitate.
But nor should we ignore or condone it. Just read Max Hastings book on WW1 - makes it clear that in August 1914 the Germans and Austro-Hungarians were already involved in atrocities against civilians in way that neither the French nor British were. 20 years later you have mass murder as a normal part of German army's warfare. You have to stop these things at the start.
"Soldier worship blinds Britain to the grim reality of war" on 20:55 - Nov 9 by HollowayRanger
Geneva Convention
if only everyone played by the rules
Germany breached the Geneva Convention regularly in WW2, including the Commando Order to execute British Commandos.
They lost hands down. In fact they probably lost more heavily due to the strengthening of Russian resistance, rallying behind the vile stalinist regime, in the face if German atrocities.
If you are suggesting that one side gains a advantage by refusing to follow it, you are talking balls.
How strange is war that it has rules. Even stranger is you get heavily defeated,hell you might even get a couple of nukes dumped on you,and eventually your economy booms and you dictate policy to your conquerors.
"Soldier worship blinds Britain to the grim reality of war" on 21:03 - Nov 9 by hoopstilidie
Enlighten me with your evidence that we have not been invited in.
A simple "yeah right" doesn't quite cut it on the evidentiary front by the way.
Pretty hard to produce evidence of a non-existing thing, surely? [See, for example, God.] On the other hand, evidence of an invitation ought to be possible. But there isn't any.
As it happens, the US and British governments have never at any point claimed we were originally "invited" into Afghanistan. The US passed a law allowing it to, and Britain and other allies claimed - correctly in my view - that it was authorised under the UN charter provisions on self-defence after the 9/11 attacks. Subsequently ISAF is authorised under specific UN security council resolutions. It doesn't depend on any invitation from the Afghan government - just as well since there wasn't one in the aftermath of the original invasion and the one there is now is flaky as hell, keeps objecting to various military operations, and has an unelected president
But all that's just legalistic semantics. We all know that many people in Afghanistan want us to help them against the Taliban, but equally a lot of people in Afghanistan regard us as illegal invaders. Saying that we were invited cuts no ice with them - they [i.e. the ordinary Pathan tribesmen] certainly didn't invite us. That's not just an academic point; if it wasn't the fundamental truth of the matter they wouldn't be shooting at our troops. Equally, we don't need to be invited in by people who attack us or our allies. We were never invited into Germany in 1945 but we still occupied it.
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"Soldier worship blinds Britain to the grim reality of war" on 23:04 - Nov 9 with 1005 views
I mights say that, mentioning no names, but I had a friend at school who found himself on trial as an alleged "war criminal" for actions while he was a serving British soldier. [Acquitted as it happens, though its undisputed that a man died in custody]. I don't know the truth of what happened, I wasn't there, but he was a good bloke and I have huge sympathy for any of our soldiers who find themselves in a war zone, getting shot at by people indistinguishable from the civilian population, and operating with a fraction of the troops needed but an abundance of lethal firepower.
Someone above was shocked by the number of tours this Marine had done, but its not surprising at all really. This war has gone on for best part of 12 years - the world wars were 10 years put together - and throughout this war the army has been reduced in size. Every reduction in numbers is justified by the claim that fewer troops can do more through better weaponry. But a more lethal weapon doesn't make you less likely to shoot someone who was recently trying to kill you.
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"Soldier worship blinds Britain to the grim reality of war" on 23:06 - Nov 9 with 1002 views
"Soldier worship blinds Britain to the grim reality of war" on 23:13 - Nov 9 by HollowayRanger
shouldnt the entire Bomber command of the RAF all be in prison
not too late still a few 90+ year olds left
The equivalent of bomber command are the drone operators. If any of them go on trial you might have a point. But they haven't, so you don't.
That's why after WW2 Germans who murdered prisoners were put on trial when caught but Luftwaffe pilots who dropped bombs on Coventry etc weren't.
Get a grip Holloway. I take your point that this guy deserves some sympathy - I sympathise too. It should affect the length of his sentence. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a crime. If you'd give up the idea that everyone who commits a crime is some sort of low-life scum who should rot in jail forever you might not find this so difficult.
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"Soldier worship blinds Britain to the grim reality of war" on 00:45 - Nov 10 with 940 views
"Soldier worship blinds Britain to the grim reality of war" on 23:50 - Nov 9 by CiderwithRsie
The equivalent of bomber command are the drone operators. If any of them go on trial you might have a point. But they haven't, so you don't.
That's why after WW2 Germans who murdered prisoners were put on trial when caught but Luftwaffe pilots who dropped bombs on Coventry etc weren't.
Get a grip Holloway. I take your point that this guy deserves some sympathy - I sympathise too. It should affect the length of his sentence. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a crime. If you'd give up the idea that everyone who commits a crime is some sort of low-life scum who should rot in jail forever you might not find this so difficult.
"Soldier worship blinds Britain to the grim reality of war" on 23:50 - Nov 9 by CiderwithRsie
The equivalent of bomber command are the drone operators. If any of them go on trial you might have a point. But they haven't, so you don't.
That's why after WW2 Germans who murdered prisoners were put on trial when caught but Luftwaffe pilots who dropped bombs on Coventry etc weren't.
Get a grip Holloway. I take your point that this guy deserves some sympathy - I sympathise too. It should affect the length of his sentence. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a crime. If you'd give up the idea that everyone who commits a crime is some sort of low-life scum who should rot in jail forever you might not find this so difficult.
Astonishing anyone thinks Bomber Command was acrime, on Remembrance day of all days, especially. Churchill had promised Stalin support in the east long before the Americans agreed to D-Day and got the dates wrong, the Americans essentially welshed as usual. True to his word he gave Dresden hell, like that had been delivered on Coventry, and when the Red Arney arrived the job had been done for them. Berlin was a few miles off. Down to Churchill. Some of you should know your history better. What they found from the east were women and children in ovens of the death camps. German death camps. So no war crimes were committed at all, comprehende? As for this bloke, shameful that he is prison, that is all. Absolutely shameful. Like Gerry Adams and all Irish scum that took up the gun against England. We should resign from the Geneva Convention. England is far too good for this world, and we should take up arms and be pro-active in securing it future.
Holloway, you are the scummiest human being I have ever encountered. That's after 40 years of Chelsea, you are an utter low life. And always will be.
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