| QPR Finances released 06:25 - Feb 28 with 59630 views | Jeff |
From Kieran Maguire in the Twitter:
[Post edited 28 Feb 2023 6:29]
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| QPR Finances released on 15:50 - Feb 28 with 2557 views | Monkey_Roots |
This reminds me of the Bugs Life film, where unless the ants (EFL clubs) provide the crickets (EPL clubs) with food (players), they were bang in trouble. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 15:51 - Feb 28 with 2546 views | Northernr |
| QPR Finances released on 15:49 - Feb 28 by wortonranger |
Plus what about if he gets capped for England? |
Some, but pocket money in comparison. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 15:55 - Feb 28 with 2512 views | Hunterhoop |
| QPR Finances released on 15:42 - Feb 28 by 1JD |
The accounts show that there are two main cost bases for the club;
- wage costs
- stadium-related costs
The stadium is a constant cost at around 10m per annum. It doesn't go up, and it doesn't go down. It's a given.
Wages are a variable cost, and go up and down. They are the problem (and solution).
The key here is season 19/20, post-parachute season, where had a total wage bill of £21.3m, with £18.3m revenue. This amounted to -3m deficit, and with extra -10m cost for stadium = £13m operating loss. (for simplification purposes, and no player ins/outs).
The key point here, and I can't emphasise this enough, is that the 13m annual loss figure is the benchmark for falling within FFP allowance, where NO PLAYER SALES are needed. A -13m loss x 3 seasons rolling = 39m allowable FFP loss.
This is the wage bill the club will be aiming for - where they are not reliant on player sales (which will be a bonus, but not a necessity).
They have done it before - only recently - and will do it again. Everything else - widespread player sales, and worse, points deductions in the coming seasons, is pure conjecture! |
Yeah, I understand how P&L’s work, mate; I understand how you manage them too; part of my job.
Cutting cost is a lot harder than increasing it though. Doing so and maintaining output/performance is very hard.
The way you are framing it is a little irresponsible, IMO. Increasing our revenue in a cost of living crisis with inflationary pressures on your costs. Harder than pre-pandemic.
Cutting your salary costs by 8m for last year, say another 5m from this year, when you are in the bottom 6 and playing badly, with high earners like Johansen, JCS, etc on contracts running past this season. Hard.
And you seem to misunderstand the timing of things. Go back and read my earlier posts.
We have already breached FFP: 19/20, 20/21, 21/22. It’s down. We’re over £39m losses in that period.
We will breach again when 22/23 is posted in 12 months’ time. We’re already 3/4 of the way through this period. We all know the wage bill hasn’t come down 8-10m and revenue isn’t up. I assumed our losses would be 4m lower this season to last. Still a big gap.
We will breach massively when 23/24 is posted unless we break even next season. The accounts for that won’t be published until Spring 2025.
The only way to break even next season is to sell everyone and let everyone go, well, practically everyone expensive. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 15:59 - Feb 28 with 2487 views | PunteR |
| QPR Finances released on 15:46 - Feb 28 by Hunterhoop |
I’m not blaming Warbuton for the financial mess. I’m just pointing out how much financial backing he was given (relative to our income and other managers). The club spent far too much supporting him. Last season was the shot at promotion and he missed its. Whether it was a fair and achievable target is an entirely different question.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the over investment last season was down to the owners wanting to “give it a go” and doing so over Hoos’ head, hence is seemingly despondent, cynical tone in recent interviews. Perhaps also why Amit didn’t mention the impending accounts and what they’d show.
We were irresponsible last year. If we didn’t go up, we absolutely had to sell in the next 12 months. Now we find ourselves in a position where our player valuations are significantly depreciated due to form or injury and we have sold no one; we’ve actually been paying players to leave again.
If there is one man for the job of making a silk purse’s from a sow’s ear, it’s Ainsworth though. |
Thanks for clarifying mate.
I'm completely in agreement and share the same opinion regarding our owners. It really wouldn't surprise me either if the owners were the ones to want to “give it a go”. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| QPR Finances released on 16:05 - Feb 28 with 2433 views | Hunterhoop |
| QPR Finances released on 15:37 - Feb 28 by daveB |
Will our losses for this season be as big given the wage bill was cut last summer? Likely to have increased Tv revenue next season as well
I wouldn't be surprised to see the rules change over the year anyway, it's not sustainable like this and although I agree we could well face a points deduction it does seem to take the EFL on average another year before they actually do anything. It's bleak but not impossible to get out of , the Eze sale showed you only really need to get one right to dig you out of a hole. They have been very unlucky in Willock falling apart the way he has and Dickie as well as both looked very sellable assets |
Dave, my estimates in an earlier post are based on our losses this season improving by 4m. Maybe it’ll be 5-6m. Still puts us over again in 12 months time. 4+24+18=46m.
There is no way this season sees us make a loss of 11m or less, from 24m last year. None. We didn’t even achieve that in 19/20.
And the following season in this accounting rolling period is next season 23/24. The 4m drops out. So you have 24m, this season at, say, 18m, and the ??? But you’re already in breach before the season starts at 42m. Hence my point that next season you have to break even somehow to be even close to FFP.
How could we do this? Well, this extra tv money would be hugely helpful but not sure when that is received. We could sell someone for massive money (who?)? We could hope Eze goes for £50m and saves the club again.
Without those we must sell and let everyone go this summer or face an inevitable points deduction in the summer of 2025.
Tbh, we have breached now, and will breach again when the next accounts are published, so we could get a points deduction this summer, or even this season.
But after deductions we’re allowed to make for FFP calcs this year, I think we’ll be there or thereabouts and be allowed off by the EFL. Next year, we might be close enough for a transfer embargo or something but no points deduction. Unless we take drastic action between now and May 2024, in spring/summer 2025, we will get a whopping points deduction. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 16:10 - Feb 28 with 2383 views | BuckR |
Excuse if this has been asked before - but is stadium running costs etc included in this? I know investing in training ground etc is left out
Wondered if there was going to be some flexibility or review in the rules anyway as it must be costing a fortune to run LR at the moment with rise in general energy costs etc
Not enough to plug that hole obviously but wondered if the rules would likely be looked at anyway for this sort of stuff
Really is depressing following us at the moment, not only do you need to be a certified mental case to follow us you need to have a bloody accountancy degree to go with it! |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 16:13 - Feb 28 with 2359 views | Andybrat |
| QPR Finances released on 15:19 - Feb 28 by francisbowles |
We've been trying to recruit as far as possible, players who are 'comfortable on the ball'. Maybe those players demand higher wages. With GA at the helm, it's possible we will recruit cheaper, less skilful but more aggressive and dynamic personnel.
Lots of players out of contract, let most of them leave. As John Eustace reportedly said when MW arrived about the previous lot, 'they are used to losing'
Replace with affordable players who fit GA's plans. |
Presume our stars have relegation clauses ? | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 16:19 - Feb 28 with 2305 views | Andybrat |
Sorry me again. Knight in shining armour, Richard Reilly? He obviously knew what he is getting himself in to, Clutching at straws, but he must have a plan or why would he have joined the circus? | | | |
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| QPR Finances released on 16:30 - Feb 28 with 2248 views | Northernr |
| QPR Finances released on 16:19 - Feb 28 by Andybrat |
Sorry me again. Knight in shining armour, Richard Reilly? He obviously knew what he is getting himself in to, Clutching at straws, but he must have a plan or why would he have joined the circus? |
Or bought a small stake in a club that, at the time last January, looked like it had a good chance of promotion into the serious stuff. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 16:30 - Feb 28 with 2248 views | 1JD |
| QPR Finances released on 15:55 - Feb 28 by Hunterhoop |
Yeah, I understand how P&L’s work, mate; I understand how you manage them too; part of my job.
Cutting cost is a lot harder than increasing it though. Doing so and maintaining output/performance is very hard.
The way you are framing it is a little irresponsible, IMO. Increasing our revenue in a cost of living crisis with inflationary pressures on your costs. Harder than pre-pandemic.
Cutting your salary costs by 8m for last year, say another 5m from this year, when you are in the bottom 6 and playing badly, with high earners like Johansen, JCS, etc on contracts running past this season. Hard.
And you seem to misunderstand the timing of things. Go back and read my earlier posts.
We have already breached FFP: 19/20, 20/21, 21/22. It’s down. We’re over £39m losses in that period.
We will breach again when 22/23 is posted in 12 months’ time. We’re already 3/4 of the way through this period. We all know the wage bill hasn’t come down 8-10m and revenue isn’t up. I assumed our losses would be 4m lower this season to last. Still a big gap.
We will breach massively when 23/24 is posted unless we break even next season. The accounts for that won’t be published until Spring 2025.
The only way to break even next season is to sell everyone and let everyone go, well, practically everyone expensive. |
"We have already breached FFP: 19/20, 20/21, 21/22. It’s down. We’re over £39m losses in that period".
This is not correct and its unhelpful to speculate without fact or evidence. The following last 4 seasons operating losses, taken from companies house, and directly from the accounts, are as follows;
- 18-19: 9.4m loss
- 19-20: 16m loss (includes a one-time charge for 4.5m Warren Farm write off, so in FFP terms, and in “normal” years is actually a 11.5m loss)
- 20-21: 4m loss.
- 21-22: 24m loss.
There is a special allowance for COVID, the accounts for season 19-20, and 20-21, are combined, and divided by two. So, 16m loss, and 4m loss = 20m loss. Divided by two yields 10m loss.
To get the 3-year rolling calculation, to bring us right up to date, we have;
Year 1: 18/19: 9.4m loss
Year 2: 19/20 AND 20/21: 10m loss
Year 3: 24m loss.
= 43.4m loss total.
But these are "operating losses", and "FFP losses" have certain allowable reductions e.g. academy costs 1.5m per annum, x3 seasons= 4.5m of disallowable costs, which will bring us under 39m FFP loss, and adding in the Warren Farm one-time write-off loss of 4.5m - a further disallowable cost, actually sees us quite clear.
Going forwards, a reduction of the wage bill to levels seen only 3 seasons ago, is absolutely doable, and has already begun. Unfortunately, the current negativity and doom-mongering at QPR is at an all time high. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 16:35 - Feb 28 with 2217 views | Lblock |
| QPR Finances released on 07:29 - Feb 28 by Northernr |
So it is a “myth” we lose £1.8m a month. It’s actually now £2m. |
Not read the whole thread.
I'll repeat again what I've said before......... how in the name of God is a club of our size LOSING £1.8M to £2M a bloody MONTH?!?!?
We own the ground.
BungleBros Inc said they'd pay the FFP fine personally.
Our running costs must be similar to other London clubs in terms of power, water, gas etc
I have visions of W12 staff being like the old GLC days where people are turning up, mooching about, nobody really knowing what they are doing and picking up wages for no input / output.
It's farcical that you have a club like Rotherham losing £1.5mill a YEAR and in reality not that far away from us.
Let's hope they're not relying on season ticket sales next season to help stem the tide of helicopter fuel expenses etc, etc |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| QPR Finances released on 16:36 - Feb 28 with 2215 views | Northernr |
| QPR Finances released on 16:35 - Feb 28 by Lblock |
Not read the whole thread.
I'll repeat again what I've said before......... how in the name of God is a club of our size LOSING £1.8M to £2M a bloody MONTH?!?!?
We own the ground.
BungleBros Inc said they'd pay the FFP fine personally.
Our running costs must be similar to other London clubs in terms of power, water, gas etc
I have visions of W12 staff being like the old GLC days where people are turning up, mooching about, nobody really knowing what they are doing and picking up wages for no input / output.
It's farcical that you have a club like Rotherham losing £1.5mill a YEAR and in reality not that far away from us.
Let's hope they're not relying on season ticket sales next season to help stem the tide of helicopter fuel expenses etc, etc |
Wages. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 16:43 - Feb 28 with 2170 views | Andybrat |
| QPR Finances released on 16:30 - Feb 28 by Northernr |
Or bought a small stake in a club that, at the time last January, looked like it had a good chance of promotion into the serious stuff. |
Cmon Clive give me something positive. Looks like the club is hamstrung ( spot the pun) from every angle possible. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 16:51 - Feb 28 with 2090 views | NewBee |
| QPR Finances released on 11:05 - Feb 28 by QPRConor2000 |
Club needs to put out a statement explaining these accounts further.
Could we find ways of cutting 2m a month on spending, I think its certainly possible.
1. The club should be seriously considering ether downgrading the academy or scrapping it entirely, the returns on our investment here seriously doesn't warrant us spending so much every season.
2. The club could find 2m a month by asking players to take pay cuts or we cut back the size of the squad.
3. Player sales.
These are the only real solutions I could think of, but we badly need a clearout in the summer. |
EDIT: Oops - pressed Send button too early, see full post below. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 17:29]
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| QPR Finances released on 16:59 - Feb 28 with 2049 views | E1Hoop |
| QPR Finances released on 15:55 - Feb 28 by Hunterhoop |
Yeah, I understand how P&L’s work, mate; I understand how you manage them too; part of my job.
Cutting cost is a lot harder than increasing it though. Doing so and maintaining output/performance is very hard.
The way you are framing it is a little irresponsible, IMO. Increasing our revenue in a cost of living crisis with inflationary pressures on your costs. Harder than pre-pandemic.
Cutting your salary costs by 8m for last year, say another 5m from this year, when you are in the bottom 6 and playing badly, with high earners like Johansen, JCS, etc on contracts running past this season. Hard.
And you seem to misunderstand the timing of things. Go back and read my earlier posts.
We have already breached FFP: 19/20, 20/21, 21/22. It’s down. We’re over £39m losses in that period.
We will breach again when 22/23 is posted in 12 months’ time. We’re already 3/4 of the way through this period. We all know the wage bill hasn’t come down 8-10m and revenue isn’t up. I assumed our losses would be 4m lower this season to last. Still a big gap.
We will breach massively when 23/24 is posted unless we break even next season. The accounts for that won’t be published until Spring 2025.
The only way to break even next season is to sell everyone and let everyone go, well, practically everyone expensive. |
Understandably the conversation is around FFP and your conclusion about a fire sale is probably correct. The motivations of our owners to continue funding us are beyond me though. Even if we manage to reduce our losses within FFP this would still involve writing a cheque for £1m per month. The chances of any future stadium and property redevelopment recovering what they have lost must be slim. And there is no viable option for a new stadium site so the time frame must be about 10 years best case to occupation of a new stadium and LR redevelopment. That would be another £120m of funding best case. I wonder if this summer will not just be a review of our strategy and who keeps their job but also the owners strategy around their plans. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:00 - Feb 28 with 2044 views | connell10 |
So basically Hoo,s has said we can't do this, we must cut back on that , yet we still end up losing 24 million. I can't get my head around this, he even made us pay for a Stan Bowles sign......I'm speechless . |  |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| QPR Finances released on 17:04 - Feb 28 with 2012 views | NewBee |
| QPR Finances released on 11:05 - Feb 28 by QPRConor2000 |
Club needs to put out a statement explaining these accounts further.
Could we find ways of cutting 2m a month on spending, I think its certainly possible.
1. The club should be seriously considering ether downgrading the academy or scrapping it entirely, the returns on our investment here seriously doesn't warrant us spending so much every season.
2. The club could find 2m a month by asking players to take pay cuts or we cut back the size of the squad.
3. Player sales.
These are the only real solutions I could think of, but we badly need a clearout in the summer. |
"The club could find 2m a month by asking players to take pay cuts or we cut back the size of the squad."
£2m a month = £24m a year (obv), which for a 24 man squad means each player accepting a £1m a year pay cut i.e. £20k a week.
That simply isn't going to happen. For those players who have some value to other clubs could leave as a free agent (on the basis that the club has torn up their contract); while those who could not find another club would simply sit tight until their existing contract ran out, then sign for whoever will take them on a free.
Meanwhile, were QPR unilaterally to chop their contracts, the club would face penalties from the EFL (transfer ban at a minimum), while the PFA would also kick up a storm. And no other player with any value would sign for QPR to replace lost players, bar the truly desperate.
Which is why, when clubs get into serious financial difficulty (eg Administration), it is the non-playing staff who get laid off, not the players, even though this invariably only produces a fraction of the savings that getting shot of players would.
P.S. Even if cuts on that scale could be made to work, it would still be dependant upon the club employing 24 players who are each earning well in excess of £20k a week each. Which is obviously not the case, or even close. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 17:33]
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| QPR Finances released on 17:12 - Feb 28 with 1982 views | Headington |
I think the club was a bit disingenuous with Warburton by sending out mixed messages. On the one hand emphasising the importance of the academy and on the other pushing for promotion. Some of the signings certainly didn't help - Hendrick and Gray for example - but he also played an important part in helping Eze develop into the player he is, which is now keeping us going. Still think with easy benefit of hindsight they missed a trick not giving job to Eustace who previously helped overhaul the squad, as it looks like we'll need another go at that. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:17 - Feb 28 with 1934 views | PunteR |
Arent we just living proof that FFP is totally unworkable.?
Or are we still completely incapable of being responsible with money? | |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| QPR Finances released on 17:18 - Feb 28 with 1920 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
Can't we open Loftus Road up as a high-end convalescence home for elderly dowagers? Care homes generate huge sums and we're already providing care for a number of infirm patients. We just need to scale it up. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:20 - Feb 28 with 1917 views | Monkey_Roots |
"The motivations of our owners to continue funding us are beyond me though"
And me.
I definitely don't buy their reasons for buying QPR because their love of the fans either.
Weird.
Oh well. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:20 - Feb 28 with 1908 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
At least in next year's accounts we'll save a load on win bonuses. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:25 - Feb 28 with 1889 views | PinnerPaul |
| QPR Finances released on 14:53 - Feb 28 by Northernr |
Yes, big bag of change. Maybe he'll save us twice over. Come on Newcastle, you know it makes sense. |
Its not our year really is it - even he hasn't been starting lately! | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:26 - Feb 28 with 1876 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
| QPR Finances released on 16:35 - Feb 28 by Lblock |
Not read the whole thread.
I'll repeat again what I've said before......... how in the name of God is a club of our size LOSING £1.8M to £2M a bloody MONTH?!?!?
We own the ground.
BungleBros Inc said they'd pay the FFP fine personally.
Our running costs must be similar to other London clubs in terms of power, water, gas etc
I have visions of W12 staff being like the old GLC days where people are turning up, mooching about, nobody really knowing what they are doing and picking up wages for no input / output.
It's farcical that you have a club like Rotherham losing £1.5mill a YEAR and in reality not that far away from us.
Let's hope they're not relying on season ticket sales next season to help stem the tide of helicopter fuel expenses etc, etc |
Yeah, I saw that about Rotherham. Wow, that's cutting your cloth accordingly.
It's clear we are a late Soviet era regime with Les coming up with Five Year Plans for the Bungle Brothers that demonstrate how Niko will be worth £20 million. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 17:35 - Feb 28 with 1826 views | Hunterhoop |
| QPR Finances released on 16:30 - Feb 28 by 1JD |
"We have already breached FFP: 19/20, 20/21, 21/22. It’s down. We’re over £39m losses in that period".
This is not correct and its unhelpful to speculate without fact or evidence. The following last 4 seasons operating losses, taken from companies house, and directly from the accounts, are as follows;
- 18-19: 9.4m loss
- 19-20: 16m loss (includes a one-time charge for 4.5m Warren Farm write off, so in FFP terms, and in “normal” years is actually a 11.5m loss)
- 20-21: 4m loss.
- 21-22: 24m loss.
There is a special allowance for COVID, the accounts for season 19-20, and 20-21, are combined, and divided by two. So, 16m loss, and 4m loss = 20m loss. Divided by two yields 10m loss.
To get the 3-year rolling calculation, to bring us right up to date, we have;
Year 1: 18/19: 9.4m loss
Year 2: 19/20 AND 20/21: 10m loss
Year 3: 24m loss.
= 43.4m loss total.
But these are "operating losses", and "FFP losses" have certain allowable reductions e.g. academy costs 1.5m per annum, x3 seasons= 4.5m of disallowable costs, which will bring us under 39m FFP loss, and adding in the Warren Farm one-time write-off loss of 4.5m - a further disallowable cost, actually sees us quite clear.
Going forwards, a reduction of the wage bill to levels seen only 3 seasons ago, is absolutely doable, and has already begun. Unfortunately, the current negativity and doom-mongering at QPR is at an all time high. |
But this line about just bringing our wage bill in line with the lowest we’ve ever achieved in modern times is flippant.
It’s 29m last season. You yourself estimated it might only be a few million lower this year. Let’s estimate it is at 23m, a 6m reduction based on the players you and I know exit.
I have stated repeatedly that the rolling 3 year FFP losses up to the accounts just published will have us fine with the EFL. The issue is this season, accounts published in 12 months, will have us breaching even allowing for best case disallowance costs, unless you somehow think we’ve cut our cloth by 10-15m this season. Income hasn’t gone up.
And then next season, accounts published in 2025, will see the 4m loss season drop off and us suddenly need to be breaking even given last season’s and this season’s losses.
I completely agree that the game is reduce costs or increase income. My point which you keep blindly missing is that either strategy, probably both, need drastic action between now and May 2024. Hence why I’m forecasting a bit of a fire sale and contracts not being renewed.
How else do they achieve it?
And if they don’t the points deduction comes summer of 2025. | | | |
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