| Bucha massacre 01:54 - Dec 23 with 14740 views | deanscfc |
Reluctant to start anything more about Russia's invasion of Ukraine but I feel that this particular subject needs attention.
Remember when a handful of people here did their best to try and deny Russia's war crimes in Bucha? Well here is the NY Times investigation into what happened. As conclusive as it gets with video footage, audio, images, call history etc.
Of course it won't be a surprise to any normal person, but I do think that those who tried to spread Kremlin propaganda should be shamed for it. I would say 'ashamed', but they won't be, as you have to already have something quite wrong with you to support Russia in this.
Investigation here. 30 minute video and report:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/22/video/russia-ukraine-bucha-massacre-takeaways [Post edited 23 Dec 2022 1:54]
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| Bucha massacre on 17:54 - Jan 25 with 1195 views | controversial_jack |
| Bucha massacre on 09:20 - Jan 25 by felixstowe_jack |
Trouble is anti aircraft missiles are not much use in war that is being fought on the ground. More bad news for thecl Russians is that the Ukrainians will be getting the far superior Western tanks while their own tanks have been withdrawn from the battlefield. The Russian tanks based on a second World War design were easily destroyed by handheld anti tank weapons which was highlighted during their panic retreat from Kyiv. |
The missiles will and can be used to destroy the Ukrainian infrastructure and can be used for ground targets, such as Tanks | | | |
| Bucha massacre on 18:00 - Jan 25 with 1180 views | controversial_jack |
| Bucha massacre on 11:48 - Jan 25 by ReslovenSwan1 |
The West does not have resources to win?
The west resources dwarfs the Russian resources. It is jut a matter of getting the wheels moving. There is only one winner. Ukraine miliiary is a godsend as they take older expired Western kit soon to be upgraded. Old stock from Iraq / Afghistam.
But they do not have enough time ?
Russian has to fight for every square centimetre. Bakhmut already 4 months.
Russian missiles?
They are using air to air missiles to attach ground stations and converting intercontinental ones.
Winter is half over the Ukrainian people will survive. |
Actually, the West cannot produce enough to match the Russians. They cannot produce enough heavy artillery shells. NATO is set up to produce for themselves, they do not have the capacity to keep supplying the Ukraine. How much will get through is another matter. Dozens of tanks, cannot be hidden from Russia. The Ukraine had 2,500 tanks before this conflict, a few dozen more will make no difference | | | |
| Bucha massacre on 18:14 - Jan 25 with 1173 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Bucha massacre on 18:00 - Jan 25 by controversial_jack |
Actually, the West cannot produce enough to match the Russians. They cannot produce enough heavy artillery shells. NATO is set up to produce for themselves, they do not have the capacity to keep supplying the Ukraine. How much will get through is another matter. Dozens of tanks, cannot be hidden from Russia. The Ukraine had 2,500 tanks before this conflict, a few dozen more will make no difference |
Another piece of Russian properganda (lie) Ukraine had 950 tanks before the war
Russia has lost 1400 tanks and Ukraine 244 all verified by independent sources and satellite images.
Good to see America and Germany following the UK lead with other NATO countries to follow. | |
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| Bucha massacre on 18:34 - Jan 25 with 1157 views | controversial_jack |
| Bucha massacre on 18:14 - Jan 25 by felixstowe_jack |
Another piece of Russian properganda (lie) Ukraine had 950 tanks before the war
Russia has lost 1400 tanks and Ukraine 244 all verified by independent sources and satellite images.
Good to see America and Germany following the UK lead with other NATO countries to follow. |
Independent sources lol. Russia withdrew most of it's tanks early on. This isn't a war of movement, it's one of attrition and artillery, of which Russia has s huge advantage tanks are useless. Russia was using old tanks as mobile artillery, they weren't using them in set pieces | | | |
| Bucha massacre on 23:01 - Jan 25 with 1113 views | DJack |
Whats going to be funny is the Ukraine application of Combined Arms upon the Russian forces. Even funnier if they get the Dutch F16 jets in time for that.  |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Bucha massacre on 10:24 - Jan 26 with 1077 views | Boundy |
| Bucha massacre on 18:00 - Jan 25 by controversial_jack |
Actually, the West cannot produce enough to match the Russians. They cannot produce enough heavy artillery shells. NATO is set up to produce for themselves, they do not have the capacity to keep supplying the Ukraine. How much will get through is another matter. Dozens of tanks, cannot be hidden from Russia. The Ukraine had 2,500 tanks before this conflict, a few dozen more will make no difference |
You honestly believe what you or Ivan post ? Why do you think the threats of escalation towards a nuclear strike have been made by Russia, or the reluctance by the west to speed up the more than adequate supply of assets to Ukraine needed to defeat Russia , no one want a nuclear was but the only ones threatening it are by members of the Dumas . The US alone has a manufacturing base that the Russians could only dream of and that was pre war levels , why do do you think they've had to resort to buying drones from Iran m their economy is crashing and strange as it may seem the longer the war continues the stronger Ukraine and the weaker Russia becomes ,the West won't allow allow Russia to win . | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Bucha massacre on 10:49 - Jan 26 with 1067 views | controversial_jack |
| Bucha massacre on 10:24 - Jan 26 by Boundy |
You honestly believe what you or Ivan post ? Why do you think the threats of escalation towards a nuclear strike have been made by Russia, or the reluctance by the west to speed up the more than adequate supply of assets to Ukraine needed to defeat Russia , no one want a nuclear was but the only ones threatening it are by members of the Dumas . The US alone has a manufacturing base that the Russians could only dream of and that was pre war levels , why do do you think they've had to resort to buying drones from Iran m their economy is crashing and strange as it may seem the longer the war continues the stronger Ukraine and the weaker Russia becomes ,the West won't allow allow Russia to win . |
There is no threat of any escalation. The only leader to mention nukes has been Biden,Putin hasn't mentioned them, you are completely wrong there.
Yes, the US has a huge base, but this isn't ww2 and the US will not go on full war footing, as it has enough problems of it's own and would take them years to even match Russian production.
At the moment, the world, and not just the US cannot match the Russians in manufacturing missiles or heavy artillery shells. Russia also has the manpower, they are using trained reservists, not conscripts as the media says.Russia doesn't have a very big GDP, but that's misleading, they don't have such a big service economy as we do, they still have a big manufacturing sector and can make anything.
The cheap drones from Iran, cost about 10k. They send them over, the Ukraine sends up a missile 100k , to shoot them down, then Russia sends it's real missiles to do the damage. What the Ukraine claim to have shot down are not missiles but drones.
The Ukraine will be getting new tanks, but tanks alone cannot hold groud, there has to be support from artillery and troops, which the Ukraine doesn't have in sufficient quantity,
Someone mentioned f16 jets, they aren't a match for the Russian Sukhois and Russia has the world's best air defenses. | | | |
| Bucha massacre on 11:03 - Jan 26 with 1062 views | Boundy |
| Bucha massacre on 18:34 - Jan 25 by controversial_jack |
Independent sources lol. Russia withdrew most of it's tanks early on. This isn't a war of movement, it's one of attrition and artillery, of which Russia has s huge advantage tanks are useless. Russia was using old tanks as mobile artillery, they weren't using them in set pieces |
The same tanks which at the start of this conflict you stated many times Russian superiority . T-90ms are being lost at a remarkable rate and are not being replaced quickly enough , so when the spring comes the amour support won't be available .You state that Russia weer ar using tanks as artillery pieces the one major problem with is that is the range is significantly decreased when measured against conventional pieces and also are within range of the opposition | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Bucha massacre on 11:29 - Jan 26 with 1050 views | controversial_jack |
| Bucha massacre on 11:03 - Jan 26 by Boundy |
The same tanks which at the start of this conflict you stated many times Russian superiority . T-90ms are being lost at a remarkable rate and are not being replaced quickly enough , so when the spring comes the amour support won't be available .You state that Russia weer ar using tanks as artillery pieces the one major problem with is that is the range is significantly decreased when measured against conventional pieces and also are within range of the opposition |
Russia won't use tanks against better tanks, they have the guns to do that, and lots of them..We haven't even seen the Russian air force, i'm sure they will use jets as tank busters | | | |
| Bucha massacre on 11:39 - Jan 26 with 1047 views | Boundy |
| Bucha massacre on 11:29 - Jan 26 by controversial_jack |
Russia won't use tanks against better tanks, they have the guns to do that, and lots of them..We haven't even seen the Russian air force, i'm sure they will use jets as tank busters |
So now an admission that Russians tanks are inferior hmmm.
How long do you think it takes to replace a pilot , Ukraine's air defences have been extremely effective since the start of the war a lot due to the US contribution of short-range Stinger SAMs , these have made low-level flying a high risk activity .When they have got through their success rate of accuracy is down to 40% not a good return. Russia is struggling and like stated before the longer it goes on the weaker they get . | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Bucha massacre on 11:56 - Jan 26 with 1044 views | controversial_jack |
| Bucha massacre on 11:39 - Jan 26 by Boundy |
So now an admission that Russians tanks are inferior hmmm.
How long do you think it takes to replace a pilot , Ukraine's air defences have been extremely effective since the start of the war a lot due to the US contribution of short-range Stinger SAMs , these have made low-level flying a high risk activity .When they have got through their success rate of accuracy is down to 40% not a good return. Russia is struggling and like stated before the longer it goes on the weaker they get . |
Russia can send missiles into Ukraine with impunity. they have done so again today. Ukraine have been shooting down drones, not missiles. | | | |
| Bucha massacre on 00:19 - Jan 27 with 1003 views | DJack |
| Bucha massacre on 18:34 - Jan 25 by controversial_jack |
Independent sources lol. Russia withdrew most of it's tanks early on. This isn't a war of movement, it's one of attrition and artillery, of which Russia has s huge advantage tanks are useless. Russia was using old tanks as mobile artillery, they weren't using them in set pieces |
This guy and his team have visually confirmed EVERY reported incident on either side and his figures say you talk arrant nonsense.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.htm | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Bucha massacre on 00:26 - Jan 27 with 1002 views | DJack |
| Bucha massacre on 10:49 - Jan 26 by controversial_jack |
There is no threat of any escalation. The only leader to mention nukes has been Biden,Putin hasn't mentioned them, you are completely wrong there.
Yes, the US has a huge base, but this isn't ww2 and the US will not go on full war footing, as it has enough problems of it's own and would take them years to even match Russian production.
At the moment, the world, and not just the US cannot match the Russians in manufacturing missiles or heavy artillery shells. Russia also has the manpower, they are using trained reservists, not conscripts as the media says.Russia doesn't have a very big GDP, but that's misleading, they don't have such a big service economy as we do, they still have a big manufacturing sector and can make anything.
The cheap drones from Iran, cost about 10k. They send them over, the Ukraine sends up a missile 100k , to shoot them down, then Russia sends it's real missiles to do the damage. What the Ukraine claim to have shot down are not missiles but drones.
The Ukraine will be getting new tanks, but tanks alone cannot hold groud, there has to be support from artillery and troops, which the Ukraine doesn't have in sufficient quantity,
Someone mentioned f16 jets, they aren't a match for the Russian Sukhois and Russia has the world's best air defenses. |
Your comment on Russian air defence is risible. Back in the day a troubled German teenager landed a cessna on Red Square. During this conflict the Ukrainians have carried out helicopter raids into Russia and MANY drone attacks on Belgorod and have also hit some of Russia's strategic bombers, well into Russian territory.
As for the Sukhois, they have not flown into Ukrainian airspace (pre 2014 borders even) since very early in this war. additionally the Ukrainian's using much older Migs have taken down the earlier Sukhois. Any F16's will be in the combined arms air role in Ukrainian territory and WONT be troubled by Sukhois. | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Bucha massacre on 00:27 - Jan 27 with 1001 views | DJack |
| Bucha massacre on 11:56 - Jan 26 by controversial_jack |
Russia can send missiles into Ukraine with impunity. they have done so again today. Ukraine have been shooting down drones, not missiles. |
The ukraine has recently shot down a wave of cruise missiles you deluded fool. | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Bucha massacre on 08:35 - Jan 27 with 972 views | controversial_jack |
| Bucha massacre on 00:27 - Jan 27 by DJack |
The ukraine has recently shot down a wave of cruise missiles you deluded fool. |
The Ukraine has just been hit with a wave of missiles. They can send them over with impunity | | | |
| Bucha massacre on 22:51 - Jan 27 with 945 views | DJack |
| Bucha massacre on 08:35 - Jan 27 by controversial_jack |
The Ukraine has just been hit with a wave of missiles. They can send them over with impunity |
Yesa few hit their targets but the vast majority did not...better air defence than Russia. | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Bucha massacre on 10:42 - Jan 28 with 915 views | controversial_jack |
| Bucha massacre on 22:51 - Jan 27 by DJack |
Yesa few hit their targets but the vast majority did not...better air defence than Russia. |
Ukraine claimed to have shot down 47 of 54. Russia would claim less, and the reality would be somewhere in between. Russia can send missiles the length of the country without them being detected and shot down | | | |
| Bucha massacre on 14:19 - Jan 28 with 906 views | DJack |
| Bucha massacre on 10:42 - Jan 28 by controversial_jack |
Ukraine claimed to have shot down 47 of 54. Russia would claim less, and the reality would be somewhere in between. Russia can send missiles the length of the country without them being detected and shot down |
So you admit yourself that Ukraine are shooting down cruise missiles. This shows up your lie about them only taking down drones and also highlights that the second part of the post i'm replying to is patently false.
By their very design cruise missiles are hard to stop. Russia struggles with defending against drone attacks. Your promotion of russian propaganda fantasies is risible. | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Bucha massacre on 14:24 - Jan 28 with 905 views | controversial_jack |
| Bucha massacre on 14:19 - Jan 28 by DJack |
So you admit yourself that Ukraine are shooting down cruise missiles. This shows up your lie about them only taking down drones and also highlights that the second part of the post i'm replying to is patently false.
By their very design cruise missiles are hard to stop. Russia struggles with defending against drone attacks. Your promotion of russian propaganda fantasies is risible. |
No air defence is 100% effective, is that hard for you to understand?
Russia sends cheap drones to draw out the Ukrainian air defence, then they send the real stuff | | | |
| Bucha massacre on 15:11 - Jan 28 with 901 views | DJack |
| Bucha massacre on 14:24 - Jan 28 by controversial_jack |
No air defence is 100% effective, is that hard for you to understand?
Russia sends cheap drones to draw out the Ukrainian air defence, then they send the real stuff |
I understand a damn sight more than you buddy. I've never claimed that air defence is 100% effective. I've merely pointed out the REPEATED failures of Russian AD..."the best in the world" according to you.
Additionally, you prove that you know little of the conflict as it's not just drones thet are using. they've used missiles meant for nuclear weapons and flown them without a warhead to use up/flood Ukraine air defence. | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Bucha massacre on 16:43 - Jan 28 with 885 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
This special military operation has gone on for nearly a year now and the Russians have achieved virtually nothing. All the people dead on both sides, destruction, suffering and for what? Putin needs to be made to answer for his crimes. |  |
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| Bucha massacre on 17:09 - Jan 28 with 869 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Bucha massacre on 18:34 - Jan 25 by controversial_jack |
Independent sources lol. Russia withdrew most of it's tanks early on. This isn't a war of movement, it's one of attrition and artillery, of which Russia has s huge advantage tanks are useless. Russia was using old tanks as mobile artillery, they weren't using them in set pieces |
Tanks ARE mobile artillery and are used to great effect in fast moving battles. Kursk being a great example.
Russia withdrew tanks because they were being destroyed very quickly by Ukrainian forces. There is a street in Kyiv littered with the wrecks of Russian armour that has been put there on display.
Why did Russia keep these old tanks? With their massive superiority (according to you) they should have rolled across Ukraine and tied it all up in a few days. What actually happened was Russia's military shortcoming has been revealed to the world in full, hysterical clairity.
Every war is a war of movement, you otherwise get bogged down like in the trenches of WW1 and nobody wins those wars until someone moves and takes land, gets boots on enemy ground. A war isn't won without movement, you can pound away with artillery and missiles all you like but until you occupy a territory, you haven't won. | | | |
| Bucha massacre on 17:25 - Jan 28 with 861 views | controversial_jack |
| Bucha massacre on 17:09 - Jan 28 by SullutaCreturned |
Tanks ARE mobile artillery and are used to great effect in fast moving battles. Kursk being a great example.
Russia withdrew tanks because they were being destroyed very quickly by Ukrainian forces. There is a street in Kyiv littered with the wrecks of Russian armour that has been put there on display.
Why did Russia keep these old tanks? With their massive superiority (according to you) they should have rolled across Ukraine and tied it all up in a few days. What actually happened was Russia's military shortcoming has been revealed to the world in full, hysterical clairity.
Every war is a war of movement, you otherwise get bogged down like in the trenches of WW1 and nobody wins those wars until someone moves and takes land, gets boots on enemy ground. A war isn't won without movement, you can pound away with artillery and missiles all you like but until you occupy a territory, you haven't won. |
It's not a war of movement and Russia doesn't want to roll across the Ukraine, it's a big country - they couldn't dominate it, just as we couldn't in Afghanistan, because it requires huge amounts of boots on the ground.It wants the eastern territory and it wants to destroy the Ukranian military - don't know how many times this has to be explained to you. Yes, they did lose some tanks in Kyev, but that was a move to tie down 100,000 Ukrainian troops, and it worked.
It's a war of attrition, until Russia decides on their next offensive. The Ukranians are already on the backfoot after being mauled in Bakhmut and had to pull out. They claimed it was strategic a few days after they had had to leave.
As to your point about boots on the ground, that is too costly these days. It takes one soldier to every 40 civilians to occupy a country, so that won't happen. and tanks alone can't hold ground, so it has to be a slogging match until one side get's worn down. The frontlines there are of huge distances, so Russia is trying to defeat samml pockets of the Ukraine in order to shorten the front lines, and it's working | | | |
| Bucha massacre on 18:14 - Jan 28 with 854 views | DJack |
| Bucha massacre on 17:25 - Jan 28 by controversial_jack |
It's not a war of movement and Russia doesn't want to roll across the Ukraine, it's a big country - they couldn't dominate it, just as we couldn't in Afghanistan, because it requires huge amounts of boots on the ground.It wants the eastern territory and it wants to destroy the Ukranian military - don't know how many times this has to be explained to you. Yes, they did lose some tanks in Kyev, but that was a move to tie down 100,000 Ukrainian troops, and it worked.
It's a war of attrition, until Russia decides on their next offensive. The Ukranians are already on the backfoot after being mauled in Bakhmut and had to pull out. They claimed it was strategic a few days after they had had to leave.
As to your point about boots on the ground, that is too costly these days. It takes one soldier to every 40 civilians to occupy a country, so that won't happen. and tanks alone can't hold ground, so it has to be a slogging match until one side get's worn down. The frontlines there are of huge distances, so Russia is trying to defeat samml pockets of the Ukraine in order to shorten the front lines, and it's working |
A couple of points champ...
Russia did roll across Ukraine in the East and South with a narrow run from Pripyat in the North.
Bakhmut has very limited strategic value it's just an economic one (resources) that the kleptocrats want.
Yes, it has become a war of attrition as Ukraine spoiled the Russian plan. As to "until Russia decides on their next offensive." you fail to understand that in conflict your enemy has a say in your plans and currently both are racing to move manpower and equipment ready for the spring.
Ukraine forces WILL use "boots on the ground"... As part of combined arms assaults (as the ATGM screen fot Ukrain armour) and for manning checkpoints around any Russian forces encircled as part of the offensives.
You are wrong so many times it is painful to read your posts. | |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Bucha massacre on 19:32 - Jan 28 with 840 views | Boundy |
| Bucha massacre on 10:49 - Jan 26 by controversial_jack |
There is no threat of any escalation. The only leader to mention nukes has been Biden,Putin hasn't mentioned them, you are completely wrong there.
Yes, the US has a huge base, but this isn't ww2 and the US will not go on full war footing, as it has enough problems of it's own and would take them years to even match Russian production.
At the moment, the world, and not just the US cannot match the Russians in manufacturing missiles or heavy artillery shells. Russia also has the manpower, they are using trained reservists, not conscripts as the media says.Russia doesn't have a very big GDP, but that's misleading, they don't have such a big service economy as we do, they still have a big manufacturing sector and can make anything.
The cheap drones from Iran, cost about 10k. They send them over, the Ukraine sends up a missile 100k , to shoot them down, then Russia sends it's real missiles to do the damage. What the Ukraine claim to have shot down are not missiles but drones.
The Ukraine will be getting new tanks, but tanks alone cannot hold groud, there has to be support from artillery and troops, which the Ukraine doesn't have in sufficient quantity,
Someone mentioned f16 jets, they aren't a match for the Russian Sukhois and Russia has the world's best air defenses. |
Try again , In September, Putin suggested the possibility of using nuclear weapons in Russia’s war on Ukraine. “We will use all means to defend the nation and the people,” Putin said on the 21st, and on the 30th he added, “It is the United States that has set a precedent for the use of nuclear weapons.” Even if Russia uses nuclear weapons, Western military experts predict that it will not respond with them, fearing that the West will expand into World War III. Senior Representative Borrell said that, like Russia, the West will not respond with nuclear weapons. As the leader of one of the three N.A.T.O. members with nuclear weapons — the others being the United States and the United Kingdom — President Emmanuel Macron said in an interview with French media last Wednesday that France will not respond to a Russian nuclear attack on Ukraine with its nuclear arsenal. Rather, the West is expected to respond by destroying Russian military facilities with missiles or providing more deadly weapons to the Ukrainian military. Citing a N.A.T.O. official, the Financial Times said that N.A.T.O.’s response is likely to involve conventional weaponry,
So I suggest as so often recently seen by yourself try backtracking or as the russia have done with some success ÑпаÑатьÑÑ Ð±ÐµÐ³Ñтвом | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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