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Seven clubs in the National League have a higher home average attendance than we do this season, so it's not even half of them. Scunthorpe's will soon drop below ours.
And all seven had higher average attendances than us when they were in the Football League.
Picking out just three examples from that link, we’ve faced Barnet, Dagenham & Redbridge and Torquay in the last decade and all three have been meandering at that level and seem to be surviving on lower gates.
Every club is different of course, but we have been held up as a great example of one that doesn’t overspend. That alone should stand us in good stead.
It would be interesting to know exactly how many National League clubs are full time in the traditional sense of the word. I know that Halifax Town, a club with a similar history and fan base to Dale, got to the playoffs last season with a sort of hybrid squad which had no more than a dozen or do full timers plus a leavening of part time players.
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 21:03 - Dec 4 with 3087 views
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 20:46 - Dec 4 by EllDale
It would be interesting to know exactly how many National League clubs are full time in the traditional sense of the word. I know that Halifax Town, a club with a similar history and fan base to Dale, got to the playoffs last season with a sort of hybrid squad which had no more than a dozen or do full timers plus a leavening of part time players.
Were those doing the leavening getting enough dough?
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 20:14 - Dec 4 by RooleyMoorBlue
Try again using home fan data only and I'll bet it's more than 7 clubs. The point is the away following will drop considerably, especially if the likes of Wrexham, Notts. County and Chesterfield go up and Oldham go down. Our crowds have probably dropped by 40% in the last 10 years and that will happen again overnight with relegation. We wouldn't be able to operate as a full time club for more than a couple of seasons in the National League unless we were instantly promoted.
OK, I'll try again.
Unfortunately, that sort of detailed data isn't readily available, so unless someone has trawled through the breakdown of home and away fans for the whole of League 2 and the National League, any conclusion based on such data is pure speculation.
What I can tell you, though, is that the average number of Dale fans at home this season currently stands at 2,285.
If you go back to those National League figures and have a good guess at away followings (bearing in mind the likes of Wrexham, Notts County, Oldham, Chesterfield, York, etc, will average significantly more away than the likes of Crawley and Harrogate), I would guess every team from Scunthorpe (or maybe Woking) upwards are the only ones with more home fans than us based on current figures.
Also, if our figure of 2,285 is a loss of 40%, that means the average number of home fans in a season in the last ten years would have been 3,808.
The highest since we started keeping records in 1997/98 is 3,070 Dale fans at home in the 2009/10 promotion season, which signifies a drop of 25.6%, although a promotion campaign is some form of outlier.
Of course, things aren't good and the figures are falling and will do so while the team is struggling, but it's always good to be able to back up opinion and speculation with facts and figures, especially when trying to guess what might happen.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2022 21:11]
When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf?
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 22:50 - Dec 4 with 2894 views
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 21:07 - Dec 4 by TVOS1907
OK, I'll try again.
Unfortunately, that sort of detailed data isn't readily available, so unless someone has trawled through the breakdown of home and away fans for the whole of League 2 and the National League, any conclusion based on such data is pure speculation.
What I can tell you, though, is that the average number of Dale fans at home this season currently stands at 2,285.
If you go back to those National League figures and have a good guess at away followings (bearing in mind the likes of Wrexham, Notts County, Oldham, Chesterfield, York, etc, will average significantly more away than the likes of Crawley and Harrogate), I would guess every team from Scunthorpe (or maybe Woking) upwards are the only ones with more home fans than us based on current figures.
Also, if our figure of 2,285 is a loss of 40%, that means the average number of home fans in a season in the last ten years would have been 3,808.
The highest since we started keeping records in 1997/98 is 3,070 Dale fans at home in the 2009/10 promotion season, which signifies a drop of 25.6%, although a promotion campaign is some form of outlier.
Of course, things aren't good and the figures are falling and will do so while the team is struggling, but it's always good to be able to back up opinion and speculation with facts and figures, especially when trying to guess what might happen.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2022 21:11]
Commendable maths (I was certain you would have made a schoolboy error; I should have known better!).
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 22:53 - Dec 4 with 2891 views
Worth a watch. Shows how a less-well regulated system works, or doesn't. Good job we weren't National League in June 2021 and beyond, and why arses need kicking to ensure we don't drop down there.
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 12:58 - Dec 4 by TVOS1907
Yeah, I know, but it's good just to keep reminding him.
Oh Sorry if I'm wrong , but lets be honest , we have all seen enough of him to know he is not good enough so ESJ should of worked that out by now . I also do not want this club to go down , because as I have mentioned and seems created a healthy debate , I think we wouldnt survive. Halifax had to fold and start again. Maybe the Dale would because we have a hardcore of honest passionate fans that have proven they can fight for this club. The odds are stacked against us though. My frustrations are that I cant see a way out. Bentley wont have much money to play with I really hope he has good connections for loanee's since the ones we have need to go back.
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 10:42 - Dec 5 with 2403 views
Halifax didn't have to fold. They went under owing £800k due to massive overspending on player wages in a gamble to gain promotion. If they'd budgeted properly they would have been ok. Gamble is the right word as they lost the play-off final to Hereford. If they'd been promoted they may have got away with it. There are some thin margins with only two going up from the National League. A couple of years ago Torquay lost the playoff final to Hartlepool on penalties and haven't been the same team since.
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 13:45 - Dec 5 with 2150 views
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:14 - Dec 4 by 100notout
IF we get relegated (and I know this is stating the bleeding obvious!!!) minimising what will be a massive loss of income will be key.
Like me, many of us will turn up week in week out whatever league we are in, but what % of our current total income is made up of gate receipts? A look in the accounts will tell you - I don't know what it is but I would imagine its less than half - that's the problem facing us.
What gives me a degree of confidence that we will survive is that we have a board of directors that are true fans (not like that idiot who claimed he was) that are 100% committed to the survival of this club and have the skill sets between them to be able to deliver. They don't have a big pot of personal cash to throw at it and no one would expect them to do that but make no mistake, now that Horton Mouse is out of the way they will already be planning to maximise income generating opportunities for this season, next season and beyond - the reinstatement of Goldbond being a good example. Lets hope they can do it, whatever league we're in.
There will be a point where certain fans give up because the standard of football has become so poor it’s unwatchable.
I don’t know about anybody else, but I’m absolutely sick to death of watching shite football week in week out.
We were spoiled during Hill’s tenure but that on Saturday really was a new low for me. It’s depressing. It actually spoils your weekend & then you’ve got the missus on at you too because it’s blackening your mood.
If we ended up in the bottom half of non-league, imagine how poor the players would be & how crap the football would be to watch.
There’s plenty of crap local Saturday league football around where you can watch for free & drink cheaply on the “terraces”.
I don’t think many will fancy £20 a week to watch dross when it’s on your doorstep for free.
It really saddens me how it has come to this within such a short period of time of the successful years in League One.
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 13:59 - Dec 5 with 2116 views
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 00:41 - Dec 5 by Sandyman
Worth a watch. Shows how a less-well regulated system works, or doesn't. Good job we weren't National League in June 2021 and beyond, and why arses need kicking to ensure we don't drop down there.
I saw some of that last night, its chilling how many were talking about gate money being their only source of income. This is what happens when banks won't lend to football clubs, and no wonder when the governance is so pathetic. Clubs end up stuck in continual, if slow decline unless they can count their fans in the 5, 6 or 7,000s. This is then compounded when fans get bored by the lack of success and find other things to do instead. Hence my earlier comment about recession killing off clubs. Most simply have a single source of income which is entirely predicated on their fanbase, once fans have to choose between paying bills and watching football, its game over..literally, unless there is a wealthy benefactor prepared to underwrite losses. This simply amplifies the need to develop a successful lottery, and to find other non- football related business opportunities to raise funds. Clubs cant rely on the same hardcore of supporters to keep putting their hands in their pockets as the quality of football declines and they slip down the leagues. Nor can we depend on a transfer or a cup run to bridge the £1.5m difference between income and spending each year, eventually something has to give, first non essential spending (pitch, decorating, advertising club shop, etc. then non-core staff and ultimately the quality and number of players. And while all this is going on sponsors start pulling out, hospitality starts to struggle, bars lose business, and the speed of decline just accelerates.
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:12 - Dec 5 with 1917 views
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 21:07 - Dec 4 by TVOS1907
OK, I'll try again.
Unfortunately, that sort of detailed data isn't readily available, so unless someone has trawled through the breakdown of home and away fans for the whole of League 2 and the National League, any conclusion based on such data is pure speculation.
What I can tell you, though, is that the average number of Dale fans at home this season currently stands at 2,285.
If you go back to those National League figures and have a good guess at away followings (bearing in mind the likes of Wrexham, Notts County, Oldham, Chesterfield, York, etc, will average significantly more away than the likes of Crawley and Harrogate), I would guess every team from Scunthorpe (or maybe Woking) upwards are the only ones with more home fans than us based on current figures.
Also, if our figure of 2,285 is a loss of 40%, that means the average number of home fans in a season in the last ten years would have been 3,808.
The highest since we started keeping records in 1997/98 is 3,070 Dale fans at home in the 2009/10 promotion season, which signifies a drop of 25.6%, although a promotion campaign is some form of outlier.
Of course, things aren't good and the figures are falling and will do so while the team is struggling, but it's always good to be able to back up opinion and speculation with facts and figures, especially when trying to guess what might happen.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2022 21:11]
That is if all the figures you quote are to be believed. Before you say why wouldn't they, up until recently we had a criminal running the club. I still stand by everything I've said even if my maths is not as good as yours, allegedly.
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:19 - Dec 5 with 1908 views
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:12 - Dec 5 by RooleyMoorBlue
That is if all the figures you quote are to be believed. Before you say why wouldn't they, up until recently we had a criminal running the club. I still stand by everything I've said even if my maths is not as good as yours, allegedly.
The Dale figures are from a spreadsheet I've kept and updated for many years, going back to when we first started recording away followings in TVOS in the 1997/98 season, an idea we can attribute to another contributor to this board.
Given I'm responsible for those figures going into TVOS and that the majority of them are from many years and seasons before DB came into the club, there's absolutely no reason to believe they aren't correct.
The other figures come off the internet and can be ratified on the National League website.
It's not about whose Maths is better; it's about providing evidence to back-up an opinion or speculation. Fact is, our home support hasn't dropped by as much as claimed, nor have over half of the National League got larger crowds than us. Those are facts.
And I would hope my Maths is pretty good, or I've been a fraud for last 30 years.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2022 16:20]
When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf?
5
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:29 - Dec 5 with 1889 views
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 21:07 - Dec 4 by TVOS1907
OK, I'll try again.
Unfortunately, that sort of detailed data isn't readily available, so unless someone has trawled through the breakdown of home and away fans for the whole of League 2 and the National League, any conclusion based on such data is pure speculation.
What I can tell you, though, is that the average number of Dale fans at home this season currently stands at 2,285.
If you go back to those National League figures and have a good guess at away followings (bearing in mind the likes of Wrexham, Notts County, Oldham, Chesterfield, York, etc, will average significantly more away than the likes of Crawley and Harrogate), I would guess every team from Scunthorpe (or maybe Woking) upwards are the only ones with more home fans than us based on current figures.
Also, if our figure of 2,285 is a loss of 40%, that means the average number of home fans in a season in the last ten years would have been 3,808.
The highest since we started keeping records in 1997/98 is 3,070 Dale fans at home in the 2009/10 promotion season, which signifies a drop of 25.6%, although a promotion campaign is some form of outlier.
Of course, things aren't good and the figures are falling and will do so while the team is struggling, but it's always good to be able to back up opinion and speculation with facts and figures, especially when trying to guess what might happen.
[Post edited 4 Dec 2022 21:11]
On the 10 years point too, it's worth noting that our average attendance ten years ago in the 2012/2013 season was 2439. Unless we're getting an average of around 400 more away fans a game this season than we did in 12/13 (which we obviously aren't), then attendances haven't dropped at all since then.
Tangled up in blue.
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:33 - Dec 5 with 1880 views
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:29 - Dec 5 by AtThePeake
On the 10 years point too, it's worth noting that our average attendance ten years ago in the 2012/2013 season was 2439. Unless we're getting an average of around 400 more away fans a game this season than we did in 12/13 (which we obviously aren't), then attendances haven't dropped at all since then.
Yep, good point ATP.
I would guess - and that's all it is - that our season ticket holders have remained fairly constant in that time (apart from natural drop-offs, people passing away, etc). The season to season differences will most likely come from those who pay on the day, which will fall when things aren't going well.
When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf?
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:44 - Dec 5 with 1854 views
An observation. Southend Utd are in their second season in the Conference, having faired poorly last year. They-have an owner with a terrible relationship with the fans not to mention the unpaid backroom staff. They are under yet another transfer embargo after the HMRC has got involved again. With all that they are above mid table and getting gates of 5k. Surprisingly close to what they were getting in L2. So there is no knowing at this stage what might happen to the club.. Plus I am a glass half full man, so what relegation?
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:56 - Dec 5 with 1825 views
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:33 - Dec 5 by TVOS1907
Yep, good point ATP.
I would guess - and that's all it is - that our season ticket holders have remained fairly constant in that time (apart from natural drop-offs, people passing away, etc). The season to season differences will most likely come from those who pay on the day, which will fall when things aren't going well.
i think that's a great stat considering the home form for the last five or six years and bearing in mind that we had a lockdown season with games played behind closed doors which could have seen support leak away. I would hate to see Dale be relegated but, in view of that statistic, would it be fair to speculate that the vast majority of season ticket holders may well renew them if we did go down? For the first season at least, dependent on results?
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:12 - Dec 5 with 1785 views
Apropos of nowt tonight in NLN bottom place Telford are away to 18th placed Bradford Park avenue a must win game for Telford considering they are 12 points from safety.
'Only happy when you've got it often makes you miss the journey'
There’s nowt wrong with contrasting views and opinion, even speculating what could happen, but to either ignore or dismiss actual evidence and examples reduces any substance to any argument someone may have.
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:12 - Dec 5 by 442Dale
There’s nowt wrong with contrasting views and opinion, even speculating what could happen, but to either ignore or dismiss actual evidence and examples reduces any substance to any argument someone may have.
The scaremongering by some that relegation to non league will to spell the complete demise of Rochdale AFC is unnecessary though.
'Only happy when you've got it often makes you miss the journey'
Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:32 - Dec 5 by James1980
The scaremongering by some that relegation to non league will to spell the complete demise of Rochdale AFC is unnecessary though.
That was sort of my point. Even when people are given reasoned, fact-based counter arguments with additional examples, the choice to dismiss or completely ignore until the next bad home defeat, is becoming predictable.
Saturday was a tough one to take. Two weeks to prepare and second best all afternoon. EBJ will not put up with the same performance two weeks on the bounce of that i am sure.
Is Quigs sidelined? I expect so. If thats the case then Rodney has to start up front leading the line on the shoulder of the centre half all 90 minutes. The lad is the only forward we have that has anything like pace. Henderson is a club legend but has lost half a yard. It will be backs to the wall but this is football and anything can happen if the basics are applied and the eleven who start realise that this is what they are paid good money to do on a Saturday afternoon. Over to EBJ Now and the players who need to step up.
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Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:42 - Dec 5 with 1574 views
I think Quigley is not available due to the loan agreement.
I would start Seriki at right back and put Keohane in midfield to add experience to our weakest area. With Rodney also starting for Quigley and with Brierley rested. I would take a point now.
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